1. #3081
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Well, hopefully next week brings me my Dusa and I can shit on every Drow or Centaur. Been on the verge of installing WC3 just to get to try the Mystic Snake + Stone Gaze Dusa, last time I played her it was still CL and Purge. Can't wait for some Bristleback either, soloing double first blood in the first minute never gets old. Come think of it, Dusa and BB are probably the two hardest to kill heroes in the game and I love them both for it.
    I never liked Medusa, but I can't wait for BB. She was better when she had CL, but so was everybody.
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  2. #3082
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Plenty of games I crushed drow with lothar. Let's keep giving our pub games as examples. I'm not saying pro decisions are code of conduct in DotA as they may or may not be as smart as regular players when it comes to strategy(I do believe they are mostly not) but invisibility is easy to counter and you can literally make a drow's life hell until she gets her shadowblade. Also math says there are better solutions in terms of combat efficiency if you are not going to use invisibility of lothar effectively or its countered by enemy. I think its same reason why we do not see luna or trax in games becuase they lack escape mechanism and lothar is not a reliable item. You can babysit drow but thats going to cost a lot. And maybe people are overestimating shadowblade because they are playing against pub trashes?
    Drow's only tough to lane if you try to give her offlane solo. She's a decent mid, not the best but not the worst. Longer than average range and slowing orb make it easy for her to harass and her damage skyrockets once she hits level 6 (5-6 mins.) Silence combined with high damage and orb make her a capable ganker - again, not best, but not worst - and while she's squishy, so are a lot of heroes. Her huge damage boost lets her farm up a lothar's or helm pretty quickly to help address that.

    She's strong in an aggressive duo lane, especially with an aggressive support like Veno. Never seen someone run a trilane with her, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. Drow definitely needs to be able to harass to win her lane, though. Her damage is a little low until level 6 and she definitely can't afford to play passively. If Drow is in a lane where she's getting harassed away from creeps or can't harass the enemy, she needs to swap lanes.

    Still she's a free kill until lothar and even lothar can not save her ass. What you don't get is she's amazingly easy to kill. You are creating hypothetical 1vs1 situations where most of the heroes can not lane against her due to her damage being OP but that's not how things work in practice. I played against new drow. Enemy team was stupid enough to send drow to solo mid against my invoker. Guess what happened?
    Free kill in what way? Invoker's squishy as fuck, too, and even if you're running QW, dust counters your awful invis. QoP is also a free kill if you can tag her with a silence or stun, or force the blink before initiating. Pudge's completely screwed if you get him out of position due to his lack of escape method and terrible move speed. TA's reliant on refraction stacks to tank the hits, any hero that can quickly strip those off can setup free kills on her.

    Saying a hero is squishy isn't really significant, because most heroes are squishy. Even AM is squishy, he's just hard to pin down because of the 5 sec blink he has, but a stun or silence takes care of that. Drow doesn't have an escape button before lothar's, but she DOES have damage that skyrockets at 6, a powerful slow, and a great silence.

    Yeah, I can see her losing mid to Invoker, but the smart thing to do there would be to just have Drow change lanes. Invoker's basically guaranteed to win solo mid since that's basically what the guy does best, only hero that might be better at it than him is maybe QoP.

    We'll have to see how the extra 25 range pans out. I'm still not a fan of it, though, because +40 AGI is just too damn much at 6 minutes. I'd really rather see it be +20 AGI and an extra +20 or however much damage versus creeps and towers. It still gives her the increased farming ability without making her such a beast as soon as she hits 6.


    As far as Centaur... meh. I don't see the changes doing a fucking thing about how inherently broken that skill is. Either needs to not be global range, or make it so only centaur procs a stun.
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  3. #3083
    Only 3 seconds duration at all ranks will probably do the trick, honestly. At 522 movespeed 3 seconds is just enough time to go 1500 range, about the same range as a blink dagger, but people have 3 seconds to see it coming. The reduced AoE on the stun also helps stop you from running a centaur train on someone. Still seems like it'll be insanely powerful early game but that's mostly because stomp and double edge are so insane.
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  4. #3084
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Free kill in what way? Invoker's squishy as fuck, too, and even if you're running QW, dust counters your awful invis. QoP is also a free kill if you can tag her with a silence or stun, or force the blink before initiating. Pudge's completely screwed if you get him out of position due to his lack of escape method and terrible move speed. TA's reliant on refraction stacks to tank the hits, any hero that can quickly strip those off can setup free kills on her.

    Saying a hero is squishy isn't really significant, because most heroes are squishy. Even AM is squishy, he's just hard to pin down because of the 5 sec blink he has, but a stun or silence takes care of that. Drow doesn't have an escape button before lothar's, but she DOES have damage that skyrockets at 6, a powerful slow, and a great silence.

    Yeah, I can see her losing mid to Invoker, but the smart thing to do there would be to just have Drow change lanes. Invoker's basically guaranteed to win solo mid since that's basically what the guy does best, only hero that might be better at it than him is maybe QoP.
    Are you smoking something? She is squishy in the way that a gank on her and she is probably dead. A gank on a hero like QoP and Invoker is much much harder. Even if you catch them in a stun, you actually ahve to kill them in the stun else they just blink/tornado/ghost walk away. That is why SF faded away from the pro scene.

    And you do realize that TA mid is super strong? Like, hardly any hero can beat her. And no, refraction is not easy to strip off for basically any hero that would be up against her mid.

  5. #3085
    TA is pie to beat me by just about any ranged hero who knows what he is doing. Viper is a prime candidate because nethertoxin for keeping up with last hitting and corrosive skin for being impossible to kill. Huskar does well because he can just right click her and eat the meld, if she seriously tries to commit to the kill she will lose. TA was not a good hero in DotA1, she is a prime example of how the pro scene latches on to things and boosts up certain heroes above their actual performance level and lowers other heroes below theirs. Most of the current favorite carries were all joke picks shortly before DotA2 came out in beta. You would get flamed for picking AM in DotA, and people would laugh at you for trying to TA mid. And now it's suddenly "unbeatable." Sorry, no, people just have a really hard time adapting. 99% of the world just does whatever Dendi does (in so few words) and the other 1% is so full of itself that it will preserve the status quo just so that it can feel like it is "right."
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  6. #3086
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Are you smoking something?
    He probably is, that's probably why he is so hasty to suggest someone else is on something. I read those 3 paragraphs like 4 times and am still laughing, I can't remember the last time I've seen so many bad arguments and so much stupidity condensed in such a little space.

    Don't bother, he is just desperately trying to build stupid arguments for his yet another failing "hero X is OP" scheme of the week.

    @Lysah, for me Medusa was the one carry I liked playing a lot more than the other ones, there's just a nice bit of elegance about her. I can't tell you whether I liked the old one or new one better yet, but the improved Split-Shot and Stone Gaze seem great.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-10-29 at 04:38 AM.



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  7. #3087
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    @Lysah, for me Medusa was the one carry I liked playing a lot more than the other ones, there's just a nice bit of elegance about her. I can't tell you whether I liked the old one or new one better yet, but the improved Split-Shot and Stone Gaze seem great.
    Why? =p
    Just not an answer I'd ever expect, so many agility heroes are more fun (luna, jugg, hell even slark or meepo). She really just sits mid for 30 minutes straight, she's like the AM afk in the jungle only she does it in a lane. There's just really no excitement to her...you get a fed jugg and you can have a laugh as you ult around killing three people before they even get to fight back. You get a fed medusa and you just turn split arrow on and attack ground in their fountain =/
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  8. #3088
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Why? =p
    It's hard to explain, she may not be the most exciting hero around but I like turning ganks around or manning up and baiting the whole enemy team. Slowly gaining dominance until the enemy is desperate to gank you only to find out they can't. Don't get me wrong, I like playing pretty much any hero (Techies not included) but the carry I really love playing is Dusa... and maybe PL and SF.

    On the other hand I don't really think there's a hero I feel like is frustrating to play against... maybe a really snowballed Bristleback but that's the reason I like playing him myself.



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  9. #3089
    PL is loads of fun, if only because running up to someone/popping manta/suddenly 20 image army surrounding them is hilarious :3

    I find storm frustrating to play against, but only because he has probably the smallest skill ceiling in the game. If you can breathe you can play a good storm spirit, hands and eyes and a brain are just a plus.
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  10. #3090
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Drow's only tough to lane if you try to give her offlane solo. She's a decent mid, not the best but not the worst. Longer than average range and slowing orb make it easy for her to harass and her damage skyrockets once she hits level 6 (5-6 mins.) Silence combined with high damage and orb make her a capable ganker - again, not best, but not worst - and while she's squishy, so are a lot of heroes. Her huge damage boost lets her farm up a lothar's or helm pretty quickly to help address that.

    She's strong in an aggressive duo lane, especially with an aggressive support like Veno. Never seen someone run a trilane with her, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work. Drow definitely needs to be able to harass to win her lane, though. Her damage is a little low until level 6 and she definitely can't afford to play passively. If Drow is in a lane where she's getting harassed away from creeps or can't harass the enemy, she needs to swap lanes.



    Free kill in what way? Invoker's squishy as fuck, too, and even if you're running QW, dust counters your awful invis. QoP is also a free kill if you can tag her with a silence or stun, or force the blink before initiating. Pudge's completely screwed if you get him out of position due to his lack of escape method and terrible move speed. TA's reliant on refraction stacks to tank the hits, any hero that can quickly strip those off can setup free kills on her.

    Saying a hero is squishy isn't really significant, because most heroes are squishy. Even AM is squishy, he's just hard to pin down because of the 5 sec blink he has, but a stun or silence takes care of that. Drow doesn't have an escape button before lothar's, but she DOES have damage that skyrockets at 6, a powerful slow, and a great silence.

    Yeah, I can see her losing mid to Invoker, but the smart thing to do there would be to just have Drow change lanes. Invoker's basically guaranteed to win solo mid since that's basically what the guy does best, only hero that might be better at it than him is maybe QoP.

    We'll have to see how the extra 25 range pans out. I'm still not a fan of it, though, because +40 AGI is just too damn much at 6 minutes. I'd really rather see it be +20 AGI and an extra +20 or however much damage versus creeps and towers. It still gives her the increased farming ability without making her such a beast as soon as she hits 6.


    As far as Centaur... meh. I don't see the changes doing a fucking thing about how inherently broken that skill is. Either needs to not be global range, or make it so only centaur procs a stun.
    Invoker squishy as fuck? Traxex is a ganker?

    Okay. You need to play with better players so you can see that your theories are useless.

  11. #3091
    Invoker is squishy as fuck. Not being able to catch him doesn't mean he can survive more than two hits, those are different concepts. Invoker survives by being able to run around with 500 movespeed at level 7 and stun you multiple times while he runs away. The invis doesn't help, though it slows him down so much that if you'd just buy dust he's dead. Still, being able to snap/dblast/tornado you and run away with huge movespeed doesn't make him not squishy. Storm is squishy and you don't see storm players die much. Different concepts.
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  12. #3092
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Invoker is squishy as fuck. Not being able to catch him doesn't mean he can survive more than two hits, those are different concepts. Invoker survives by being able to run around with 500 movespeed at level 7 and stun you multiple times while he runs away. The invis doesn't help, though it slows him down so much that if you'd just buy dust he's dead. Still, being able to snap/dblast/tornado you and run away with huge movespeed doesn't make him not squishy. Storm is squishy and you don't see storm players die much. Different concepts.
    I don't think its different concepts. I think you and pizza are differentiating it into irrelevant concepts for no reason. Hero hp is irrelevant when you posses several number of survivability spells. And why everyone is talking about ghost walk in the first place? It's easy to counter. How about ice barrier? Tornado? Defiling blast? Even EMP can help you escape. Unless you have a blink or chain stun him you won't catch invoker. He has number of escape mechanisms which makes him not squishy.

    Anti-mage is squishy but you can't kill him as easy as other heroes fuck that concept.

  13. #3093
    Hero health does matter, completely. When batrider can blink to you and ult you and pull you into his team and you die before his ult wears off because you're invoker with 1000 health at level 13, it doesn't matter how absurd your toolkit is. When orchid clinkz can kill you before you can get out of his attack range, hero health does matter. Hell, my favorite is still lothar's Ursa. If they don't see you coming they're dead before they can react. Ursa can easily get off 4 auto attacks before someone can respond to him beating them up, and guess what, if that someone is Invoker, 4 auto attacks is enough to kill him.

    Take a hero like Jakiro for comparison. He can also spam a stun to run away, but he is a lot less squishy in general. Are you going to argue that CM isn't squishy because she has a slow and a stun too? If you always had the chance to use your spells on everybody before they used theirs on you first, then yes, hero health would not matter. Even Invoker can't stay away from everything, though. It's really not uncommon for an Invoker to die in the duration of one stun, he really only survives because of his mobility. Everyone gets force staff on him - why? It's not to set up spells, it's to run away.
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  14. #3094
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Hero health does matter, completely. When batrider can blink to you and ult you and pull you into his team and you die before his ult wears off because you're invoker with 1000 health at level 13, it doesn't matter how absurd your toolkit is. When orchid clinkz can kill you before you can get out of his attack range, hero health does matter. Hell, my favorite is still lothar's Ursa. If they don't see you coming they're dead before they can react. Ursa can easily get off 4 auto attacks before someone can respond to him beating them up, and guess what, if that someone is Invoker, 4 auto attacks is enough to kill him.

    Take a hero like Jakiro for comparison. He can also spam a stun to run away, but he is a lot less squishy in general. Are you going to argue that CM isn't squishy because she has a slow and a stun too?
    It does. I did not say it doesn't. What I'm trying to say is that narrowing "squishy" term into hp-only is irrelevant when you have mobility or survivability spells. You are having really hard times to understand what I'm trying to say otherwise you wouldn't ask CM question.

    Bat raider case: most of the heroes if not all(depending on lvl and item for few exceptions) would die if bat raider jumps and pulls you to his team. So example is irrelevant

    and I think survivability, mobility spells have higher chance of saving you compared to the HP. Again, hp does matter but for squishy term its just irrelevant to consider only hero hp.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-10-29 at 09:28 AM.

  15. #3095
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Hero health does matter, completely.
    Nothing couple bracers or booster cannot solve, Invoker is solo hero with decent attack animation and high damage, he has no problem farming it.

  16. #3096
    Fact remains that Invoker dies if someone looks at him, even with farm, which is why you never hear anyone cry about him being OP even with the sheer absurdity that is his spell kit. We're comparing Invoker to Drow in ease of kill when people catch up to them and I don't see much of a difference. Invoker is just a solid mid because mid never gets ganked anyway, the few lineups that can pull a mid gank off he can just tornado and walk away.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-10-29 at 10:09 AM.
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  17. #3097
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    We're comparing Invoker to Drow in ease of kill when people catch up to them and I don't see much of a difference.
    That's same for most heroes. When you catch, they all die. There are very few exceptions.

  18. #3098
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    That's same for most heroes. When you catch, they all die. There are very few exceptions.
    Exactly, so why try to make it out like Drow is walking gold. She's not CM.
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  19. #3099
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    That's same for most heroes. When you catch, they all die. There are very few exceptions.
    Which is the point. TA, Invoker, QoP, and all the others aren't any less squishy than Drow if you prepare accordingly. Sure, Drow doesn't come with a built in escape mechanism, but she farms so fast now it's not hard to buy a lothar's pretty early on. And yeah, it's invis and can be countered, but the same goes for TA's invis, Invoker's invis, and every other escape ability in the game. So why go "oh, Drow's a free kill compared to <insert hero> so she's obviously terrible!"

    The more high skill games I watch the more I fall into Lysah's camp, believing that people are playing certain heroes consistently not because the heroes are just that good, but because all the pros play those heroes and better do what the pros are doing!
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  20. #3100
    Speaking of Lothar's, just went lothar's Tiny and totally destroyed a game. PA ended up being the reason we won, but me having an effective 20:1 KDA certainly helped keep our team alive long enough for PA to finally farm items after 60 minutes to crit people to death.

    I can't tell you how many wards/dust they bought. None of it saved them. Leshrac tried to buy a gem, he lost it in seconds. Way too easy for a team to commit to a kill on one person and remove the gem from play. You simply can't ward everywhere, and dust doesn't stop ganks, it only helps chase. I MIGHT have sold it for mjoll after I was at lothar/manta/buriza/scepter/treads/BKB, but the game was over, and even still, it's hard for me to justify Mjoll when windwalk is as strong as it is right now.

    You can cry about low skill pub trash games all you want, but there just really is no true counter for someone who knows how to actually use shadow blade. Between the invisibility, the speed, and the backstab, it's just too much for an ability you can spam nonstop. People pretend like blink is a good item for Tiny, 2150g for zero stats and something you can only use to get next to an enemy. Windwalk accomplishes the same thing when you're moving at 522, but also gives you a free auto attack that will hit for Lion ult in damage, and will come off cooldown just in time for you to run away after you get your free kill. Meanwhile, the shadow blade actually gives you helpful stats while it's off cooldown.

    You can watch the replay if you want, they had the advantage on us for a very long time. I'm just exceptionally opportunistic and able to pick and choose when and where I strike. I try not to actually believe that I'm somehow a unique player when it comes to this item, but it really is just that easy to smash anybody with. I don't care who they are, skill is not a factor when you're dead before you can move. The only way to actually stop windwalk is to be way ahead already in terms of raw 5v5 team power, in which case, no single item on any hero is very likely to swing the game around. If you can huddle up in a clump of 5 and team push with true sight and end the game, then yes, shadow blade won't appear exceptionally strong. I will continue to argue that in this situation, however, you were winning so hard it didn't matter.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-10-29 at 01:34 PM.
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