1. #3321
    Shadow blade on Leoric <3

    This is relevant to my interests.
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  2. #3322
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    You cannot change the field of view, play at wider resolutions, make the UI smaller, move the minimap/make the minimap larger/zoom out further for the same reason. Everyone needs to have the same playing field. You may not think it's a big deal, but you used to be able to play like this. Now I don't know, maybe I don't have any idea what I am talking about. Please explain how more customization of the UI is a good thing.
    I'm not gonna keep this non-brainer discussion. I suggest you to learn more.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-11-11 at 09:20 AM.

  3. #3323
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I've had exactly one game this entire week where I didn't feel like I wasn't clearly the most skilled player on my team, and that was my most recent game, where everyone on my team played well.
    Thing is, majority of players think like that when playing with strangers. It's pretty easy to see why, as you don't always notice your mistakes, and when you do it's easy to rationalize them because you yourself know exactly what went through your head and what you were doing. But when other people do mistakes, you simply perceive them as bad. And psychologically you'll always seek to blame or put responsibility on someone else, so if there's a scapegoat available you'll often dismiss it as their fault and continue. Even if you're partially responsible, it's easier to just point out someone else's mistakes instead of looking at and admitting what you did wrong or could improve. It's not uncommon for 4 players of a team to mock their 5th in allchat or for someone to go captain hindsight on their teammates without reflecting on their own play.

    I often play in a non-serious manner, which often involves me making decisions that range from unorthodox to intentionally stupid. I might farm a lane, knowing perfectly well that minimap is empty and 3 enemies are coming but still continue to do so because what the hell, maybe I can manfight them alone. Then I die and laugh about how I almost got one. That's just an example of how I know what I'm thinking when I do what is clearly a misplay, but my teammate might just think that "oh look at that goddamn retard he must be blind or something." Or if I had been someone else who didn't know the gank was coming, maybe they would proceed to scream at their teammates how nobody TP'd in, they could have gotten easy triple-kill but they're too stupid to do so!

    My point being, there's a lot you don't know about the current state of your teammates and often that with the previously mentioned psychological factors and possibility of Dunning-Kruger effect can easily give you the impression you're the only decent player around. And if you managed to get a nice score for yourself it's only too easy to mentally seal the deal that you're the best player in the universe, at least compared to your teammates.


    A little story as a final example, make of it what you will. X plays QoP in mid, Dire side, his team lanes 2-1-1 and the enemy does the same. Enemy mid is Pudge which is fairly easy for X to deal with. Few minutes in X grabs a haste rune and ganks the enemy offlaning Windrunner. X is happy with himself, but doesn't pay any thought to the conditions of his gank. Before, Windrunner was effectively kept off XP range and was still at level 1-2, and their carry had perfect lane control. When X ganked, they took the hero kill and screamed a creepwave for some extra farm for good measure, and hasted back to mid without staying to damage or push the tower. In the aftermath, Windrunner finds herself getting easy XP and gold from the pushed lane, and it takes minutes for X's team to get the lane back under control.

    Later X finds another rune in bottom and hurries to gank the enemy bot lane with apparent ease. He gets two hero kills but the enemy jungler shows up to kill his teammate, but he rushes back to mid. This goes on an on, X's QoP snowballs a good deal with the fast early gold. X hops from lane to lane, decimating heroes and creepwaves alike. This continues until enemy team manages to successfully defend a bad push, and X gets killed with several teammates. X is pissed at his team, perhaps for whatever they did wrong in the fight or to their carry who had stayed to try to farm (which they knew before trying to push) and proceeds to go on a farming overdrive, clearing two lanes and jungle while trying to get his next item. Eventually the space the enemy team got allows for them to grab some more farm, and they realize X represents a significant portion of his teams net worth and decide to try and focus him. This strategy brings them victory. In the end, X realizes he is 14-3 while rest of his team did a lot worse, he has more farm than their carry and even the enemy heroes he ganked have more farm than his supports. X concludes his team is trash, enemies don't deserve to win against him and matchmaking is shit (or he is too good for it.)


    And I can only speak for myself but more than half of the time I add USE as region (with EU) I end up regretting it.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-11-11 at 09:46 AM.
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  4. #3324
    Old God PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Thing is, majority of players think like that when playing with strangers. It's pretty easy to see why, as you don't always notice your mistakes, and when you do it's easy to rationalize them because you yourself know exactly what went through your head and what you were doing. But when other people do mistakes, you simply perceive them as bad. And psychologically you'll always seek to blame or put responsibility on someone else, so if there's a scapegoat available you'll often dismiss it as their fault and continue. Even if you're partially responsible, it's easier to just point out someone else's mistakes instead of looking at and admitting what you did wrong or could improve. It's not uncommon for 4 players of a team to mock their 5th in allchat or for someone to go captain hindsight on their teammates without reflecting on their own play.

    I often play in a non-serious manner, which often involves me making decisions that range from unorthodox to intentionally stupid. I might farm a lane, knowing perfectly well that minimap is empty and 3 enemies are coming but still continue to do so because what the hell, maybe I can manfight them alone. Then I die and laugh about how I almost got one. That's just an example of how I know what I'm thinking when I do what is clearly a misplay, but my teammate might just think that "oh look at that goddamn retard he must be blind or something." Or if I had been someone else who didn't know the gank was coming, maybe they would proceed to scream at their teammates how nobody TP'd in, they could have gotten easy triple-kill but they're too stupid to do so!

    My point being, there's a lot you don't know about the current state of your teammates and often that with the previously mentioned psychological factors and possibility of Dunning-Kruger effect can easily give you the impression you're the only decent player around. And if you managed to get a nice score for yourself it's only too easy to mentally seal the deal that you're the best player in the universe, at least compared to your teammates.
    That's understandable, but in your example, most of the time someone who knows better does something stupid, they'll admit it after they fuck up. I do it all the time - I'll die or miss a tower deny or whatever due to some stupid reason because I wasn't thinking, and I always go "oh wow that was stupid of me, sorry." I own up to the mistakes I make, whether they're intentional (I'll manfight them!) or unintentional.

    But the last game I played, we had a Russian Leoric who went aura first. We calmly explained to him, slowly and with easy words (which, since he responded in english, we're assuming he understood) why you don't want aura early and instead want stun+stats. I check him later, and he's got 1 point in stun, 2 points in aura, and 2 points in crit at level 5. He later turns out to be a complete shitbag, running into shit like 1v5's and raging at the entire team (in russian, ofc) about how bad we are and blah blah blah - the point is, I can guarantee you everyone our team, even the fucking Riki that went MoM+Basher instead of Diffusal Blade, and couldn't land a GG Cloud to save his goddamn life, was better than him.

    We lost to a team of idiots (38 minute manta on Morphling despite a full game of free farm, etc) because our teammates were such complete trash. It's frustrating as hell, dude, and it's really obvious when it really isn't your fault.

    A little story as a final example, make of it what you will. X plays QoP in mid, Dire side, his team lanes 2-1-1 and the enemy does the same. Enemy mid is Pudge which is fairly easy for X to deal with. Few minutes in X grabs a haste rune and ganks the enemy offlaning Windrunner. X is happy with himself, but doesn't pay any thought to the conditions of his gank. Before, Windrunner was effectively kept off XP range and was still at level 1-2, and their carry had perfect lane control. When X ganked, they took the hero kill and screamed a creepwave for some extra farm for good measure, and hasted back to mid without staying to damage or push the tower. In the aftermath, Windrunner finds herself getting easy XP and gold from the pushed lane, and it takes minutes for X's team to get the lane back under control.

    Later X finds another rune in bottom and hurries to gank the enemy bot lane with apparent ease. He gets two hero kills but the enemy jungler shows up to kill his teammate, but he rushes back to mid. This goes on an on, X's QoP snowballs a good deal with the fast early gold. X hops from lane to lane, decimating heroes and creepwaves alike. This continues until enemy team manages to successfully defend a bad push, and X gets killed with several teammates. X is pissed at his team, perhaps for whatever they did wrong in the fight or to their carry who had stayed to try to farm (which they knew before trying to push) and proceeds to go on a farming overdrive, clearing two lanes and jungle while trying to get his next item. Eventually the space the enemy team got allows for them to grab some more farm, and they realize X represents a significant portion of his teams net worth and decide to try and focus him. This strategy brings them victory. In the end, X realizes he is 14-3 while rest of his team did a lot worse, he has more farm than their carry and even the enemy heroes he ganked have more farm than his supports. X concludes his team is trash, enemies don't deserve to win against him and matchmaking is shit (or he is too good for it.)
    That's one of those things that requires some after-action analysis to really notice. I've seen it several times, and I used to do it a lot back before I really learned how I'm really fucking my team over by blasting down creep wave after creep wave as Keeper or whatever. It's something that watching pro games casted by people that know what they're talking about (i.e. not Tobi) helped me really learn. But yeah, I see your point.

    I used to play SC2 1v1 a lot and liked to push my MMR as much as I could. I'm used to analyzing my own play and looking for mistakes. It's a little harder in a team game like Dota 2, but the basics still apply.


    And I can only speak for myself but more than half of the time I add USE as region (with EU) I end up regretting it.
    Probably because not only do you still have to endure the fucking Russians, you also get to add Brazilians to the mix. I dunno about you, but I queue for USW and USE and it's not very often that I get into a game before my search bar is nearly maxed out. I don't know what that signifies, but it doesn't seem to vary much by time of day. Queues are typically under a minute with friends, though we also tend to play against weaker opponents when that happens. I don't know how to interpret that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
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  5. #3325
    It usually really is obvious when it isn't your fault. Furion pickers, no rune control mids, jungle CMs, last pick solo long lane SAs, these are a few of my favorite things.

    Anyway, I don't really understand the point of your anecdote. A QoP that ganks side lanes and gets kills doing so did her job for the team. Rune control and ganking is literally all mid exists for in most games. If her team was unable to keep up in farm given the fact that QoP was getting the runes and not enemy pudge AND she was also killing their lane mates for them it really is their fault and not hers. Stealing farm and unnecessarily pushing lanes is a problem, but screaming a creep wave here and there while reaping enemy heroes all game is not a problem. The pressure mid exerts from controlling runes and ganking sides alone frees up the jungle for anyone to casually relax in, not to mention creating free tower pushes for the team as they have to start abandoning side lanes to defend against rune ganks.

    Towers reset creep waves by default, pushing lanes is only bad if you either don't actually get the gold from it (furion ult) or you can't afford to trade the enemy team equal gold (they have a better late game in which case you should be pushing and setting up team fights regardless).
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-11 at 10:23 AM.
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  6. #3326
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    That's understandable, but in your example, most of the time someone who knows better does something stupid, they'll admit it after they fuck up.
    "Most of the time" doesn't really fully reflect my observations. Often the situation just seems to be, X does a mistake, knows why it happened and instead of asking why it happened focuses on what his team could have done better - and his teammates think he is shit instead of thinking of what they could have done better.

    It's a lot easier to criticize than to accept criticism, it's comforting to have someone else to blame and if there's any evidence in your favor it'll take no effort at all to accept your superiority.

    I don't really know about Brazilians, can't recall seeing that many or any that bothered me. Russians I do see but few have bothered me lately.
    Manni of Paragon. Moderator of Dota 2 subforum - The golden rule: Listen to Lysah. Seriously.

  7. #3327
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    It usually really is obvious when it isn't your fault. Furion pickers, no rune control mids, jungle CMs, last pick solo long lane SAs, these are a few of my favorite things.
    I see no problems with anything you've stated. You are playing a game with random people who you most of the time have never met before. You go into the mentality of a game with for example "hmm, I played support last game, I feel like a forest hero, or perhaps a semi-carry to get some farm this time since I supported so great last game!". 5 seconds after hero picks, you're team has either randomed or all picked carries. What gives you the right to complain on this last person on what he picks? Are you the only one who's allowed to have fun in a game? You have no right what so ever to complain on anyone ever if you random a hero in my oppinion. The moment you random you show you don't give a crap about this teams setup, and obviously want to enjoy yourself, no regards to the rest of the team. There is nothing wrong with Nature Prophet pickers. As long as they play a good furion, he'll be just like another hero. Sure, he may take you creepwave farm, but lets see anyone else gank as well as he does.

    My point is, sure, we all feel like our team is retarded sometime, but honestly, if you wanted a more serious game, I'd recommend joining an inhouse league or a team to play with.
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  8. #3328
    Old God PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapaya View Post
    I see no problems with anything you've stated. You are playing a game with random people who you most of the time have never met before. You go into the mentality of a game with for example "hmm, I played support last game, I feel like a forest hero, or perhaps a semi-carry to get some farm this time since I supported so great last game!". 5 seconds after hero picks, you're team has either randomed or all picked carries. What gives you the right to complain on this last person on what he picks? Are you the only one who's allowed to have fun in a game? You have no right what so ever to complain on anyone ever if you random a hero in my oppinion. The moment you random you show you don't give a crap about this teams setup, and obviously want to enjoy yourself, no regards to the rest of the team. There is nothing wrong with Nature Prophet pickers. As long as they play a good furion, he'll be just like another hero. Sure, he may take you creepwave farm, but lets see anyone else gank as well as he does.

    My point is, sure, we all feel like our team is retarded sometime, but honestly, if you wanted a more serious game, I'd recommend joining an inhouse league or a team to play with.
    It's a team game, and the team should always - always - come first. What gives you the right to ruin a game - ruin four other peoples' fun - by last picking a carry when your team really needs a support or a stun? What makes your personal fun so much more important than the fun of four other players?

    That's a bullshit selfish way to be and frankly people like that shouldn't even be allowed into games until they get their heads straight. You don't have to fucking be a serious tryhard rarrrr kind of player, but you need to go into it understanding that it's a team game, and in team games your personal wants take a backseat to what the team needs.

    If you want to be a selfish prick, go play a game with bots.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  9. #3329
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    It's a team game, and the team should always - always - come first. What gives you the right to ruin a game - ruin four other peoples' fun - by last picking a carry when your team really needs a support or a stun? What makes your personal fun so much more important than the fun of four other players?

    That's a bullshit selfish way to be and frankly people like that shouldn't even be allowed into games until they get their heads straight. You don't have to fucking be a serious tryhard rarrrr kind of player, but you need to go into it understanding that it's a team game, and in team games your personal wants take a backseat to what the team needs.

    If you want to be a selfish prick, go play a game with bots.
    How is a first pick carry with no regards to your or the enemy team heroes NOT a seflish act? A game can be won without supporst, so stop spouting crap.
    Siegecrafter Blackfuse (25-N) testing is complete! Today's Wisdom:
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  10. #3330
    Invoker best hero ok?

  11. #3331
    Old God PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapaya View Post
    How is a first pick carry with no regards to your or the enemy team heroes NOT a seflish act? A game can be won without supporst, so stop spouting crap.
    Maybe if you dramatically overmatch the enemy team you can win without supports but no game with anything coming close to an even match will let you win without a balanced team.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
    MMOC IRC!

  12. #3332
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    It usually really is obvious when it isn't your fault. Furion pickers, no rune control mids, jungle CMs, last pick solo long lane SAs, these are a few of my favorite things.

    Anyway, I don't really understand the point of your anecdote. A QoP that ganks side lanes and gets kills doing so did her job for the team. Rune control and ganking is literally all mid exists for in most games. If her team was unable to keep up in farm given the fact that QoP was getting the runes and not enemy pudge AND she was also killing their lane mates for them it really is their fault and not hers. Stealing farm and unnecessarily pushing lanes is a problem, but screaming a creep wave here and there while reaping enemy heroes all game is not a problem. The pressure mid exerts from controlling runes and ganking sides alone frees up the jungle for anyone to casually relax in, not to mention creating free tower pushes for the team as they have to start abandoning side lanes to defend against rune ganks.

    Towers reset creep waves by default, pushing lanes is only bad if you either don't actually get the gold from it (furion ult) or you can't afford to trade the enemy team equal gold (they have a better late game in which case you should be pushing and setting up team fights regardless).
    I said make of it what you will, but the general point would be that the player in the story was given pretty much a freeride of a game, and while he might not have necessarily played bad, his position wasn't really that demanding skill-wise - in the end, he could not look at the game as a whole and would not think of how his play might have had negative effects on the game or what he could have done better but just fret about how shit his team is.

    Everything else is pretty much off the point, but: Pushing lanes to towers doesn't really magically reset creep clash point. A decent freefarm carry can keep the creep wave within 500 distance of their tower range for the first 10 minutes and get every lasthit, and the presence of a support player will ensure their safety and usually keep the enemy offlane off xp range. You push the lane to enemy tower, sure, the lane will push back after the creeps died, but whether the clash point is almost in your tower range or right in the middle of 2 towers makes a pretty huge difference to the offlaner, not to mention the experience they got from the creeps that got to the tower. Well, you obviously know all of this, but just saying "pushing lanes doesn't matter" isn't something I'd agree with.

    The other thing I can't help picking on is the mid rune thing. Runes are nice and all, but they're not exactly all there is to mid. A friend I play with often plays really great Invoker, but most of the time he doesn't really give two hoots about rune spawns. Or he does, but he doesn't bother contesting them. I know this is pretty standard for Invoker, and it works well (partially because I often play ganking support with and take the runes instead), but rune control is always a trade-off and losing your mid dominance over them isn't always worth it. Or to put it better, it's risky if you're not sure if you can make the most out of them.
    Manni of Paragon. Moderator of Dota 2 subforum - The golden rule: Listen to Lysah. Seriously.

  13. #3333
    Old God PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    The only thing I'd have to say in regards to runes is that for certain heroes, them getting a haste rune with the first or second spawn can be completely gamebreaking, so it's important to ensure you don't let that happen. Pudge I think is the most obvious example, but there are definitely others.

    Otherwise I think controlling runes would really only be critical if the enemy mid is reliant on runes/bottle to be useful, in which case it's probably worth it for your team to try and deny those runes as much as possible.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
    MMOC IRC!

  14. #3334
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    It's a team game, and the team should always - always - come first. What gives you the right to ruin a game - ruin four other peoples' fun - by last picking a carry when your team really needs a support or a stun? What makes your personal fun so much more important than the fun of four other players?

    That's a bullshit selfish way to be and frankly people like that shouldn't even be allowed into games until they get their heads straight. You don't have to fucking be a serious tryhard rarrrr kind of player, but you need to go into it understanding that it's a team game, and in team games your personal wants take a backseat to what the team needs.

    If you want to be a selfish prick, go play a game with bots.
    Stick to 5 man stacks or clan wars. If you only consider winning as fun you're a moron of a gamer in general.

  15. #3335
    Quote Originally Posted by Daraiki View Post
    Stick to 5 man stacks or clan wars. If you only consider winning as fun you're a moron of a gamer in general.
    I donno about you but getting owned because 2 allies waited until the bell to pick BH and Riki against a Slard isn't very fun. I'll enjoy any game that isn't a stomp and shitty picking will most likely turn it into a stomp if the enemy has their heads screwed on tightly enough.

  16. #3336
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycoris View Post
    I donno about you but getting owned because 2 allies waited until the bell to pick BH and Riki against a Slard isn't very fun. I'll enjoy any game that isn't a stomp and shitty picking will most likely turn it into a stomp if the enemy has their heads screwed on tightly enough.
    Do you even talk with your teammates when you plan? Do you make a strategy or just ping like a headless chicken on the minimap expecting miracles? Make a strategy. Pick 2 carries try to prolong the game. Avoid certain encounters. Don' pick BH or Riki against a Slardar...why the fuck not if they can outplay them why not.....

  17. #3337
    Quote Originally Posted by Daraiki View Post
    Do you even talk with your teammates when you plan? Do you make a strategy or just ping like a headless chicken on the minimap expecting miracles? Make a strategy. Pick 2 carries try to prolong the game. Avoid certain encounters. Don' pick BH or Riki against a Slardar...why the fuck not if they can outplay them why not.....
    No, I don't ever ping unless I'm going for a gank. I don't expect next-level team setups worthy of TI3 but having something other than a 4-5 carry team would be nice. I will legit repick if you feel like doing it but I can't if the timer is already at :00 and I'm in the game, by that time I'm expecting pubs to be responsible for whatever the hell they do.

  18. #3338
    Old God PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daraiki View Post
    Do you even talk with your teammates when you plan? Do you make a strategy or just ping like a headless chicken on the minimap expecting miracles? Make a strategy. Pick 2 carries try to prolong the game. Avoid certain encounters. Don' pick BH or Riki against a Slardar...why the fuck not if they can outplay them why not.....
    Look, dude. Maybe things are different at the dead end of the MMR spectrum, but once you start playing against people who have a pulse, things change. I don't care if I win or lose as long as it was a good game, and asshats that don't give two shits what the team needs tend to ruin games. Those people don't care if you explain why the team needs them to pick a support, they're still gonna pick a carry because they're complete mongoloid inbred douchebags, the likes of which you'd insult dogs by calling them dogs.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
    MMOC IRC!

  19. #3339
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    I'm not gonna keep this non-brainer discussion. I suggest you to learn more.
    Fantastic rebuttal, alright dude.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    people who smoke weed past primary school dont deserve jobs.

    weed is for little kids. you should stop smoking it and move on to real people things

  20. #3340
    main problem of dota2 (as any other team-oriented mmo) is not the language barrier, but those braindead ones who do not care in the slightest what is going on, what's the setup, or what team needs.
    simple as that.

    Which, is no surprise.
    Its internet, after all.
    We all are Rambos on internet, each one of us has an ego the size of a tank.
    that's the main problem.

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