1. #3381
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I thought it was funny how Durka Durka was talking about how no one wanted to get stuck with Spectre during pick/ban. I don't think I've ever seen Spectre do anything but feed outside of a 60+ minute game.
    on the other hand, a good spectre can a ctually 1v5 the whole enemy team, lategame Spectre is an awesome mesh of tank, initiator, ganker, and carry, due to global presence, one of the best damage reduction passives ever and solid aoe damage just by being present.

  2. #3382
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    Why do stuns do so much damage? Shouldn't a stun do significantly less damage than, for example, Dragon Slave because it stuns the target? Especially stormbolt-style stuns, where aim isn't even a factor?
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  3. #3383
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Why do stuns do so much damage? Shouldn't a stun do significantly less damage than, for example, Dragon Slave because it stuns the target? Especially stormbolt-style stuns, where aim isn't even a factor?
    stuns do usually as much damage as any other nuke, offset by high manacost and/or long cd, to me it is pretty balanced.

  4. #3384
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    stuns do usually as much damage as any other nuke, offset by high manacost and/or long cd, to me it is pretty balanced.
    Not at all, the team with the larger amount of stuns typically wins. They are vastly more powerful than their no-stun counterparts. However, I will agree that individual spells are usually balanced by their mana cost/cooldown/range/casting speed/AoE.
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  5. #3385
    Just getting a BKB against people with stuns can shut them so off. Just watch them standing there right clicking when you would other wise be dead.

  6. #3386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pandaliciouz View Post
    Just getting a BKB against people with stuns can shut them so off. Just watch them standing there right clicking when you would other wise be dead.
    BKB isn't proof against any kind of disable because it won't help you if they stun you before you have a chance to activate it, especially after you've BKB'd a few times and it only lasts a few seconds. You have to make every second count, so you have to hold it until the last second or you might not have enough immunity to get the job done.

    It just seems stupid for stuns to do so much damage when they're already preventing the victim from doing anything for a couple of seconds. Sure, their cooldown tends to be longer than pure nukes, but that doesn't really matter when you can take 2-5x as much damage in those 2 seconds of stun as you would from two of those nukes, and there's nothing stopping teams from layering stuns one after another, each doing significant damage on its own, plus keeping the victim stuck in place.

    It just seems like stuns being as powerful as they are, and stormbolt-style stuns in particular, is really skill-independent and one of the dumber things in the game, IMO.
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  7. #3387
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    BKB isn't proof against any kind of disable because it won't help you if they stun you before you have a chance to activate it, especially after you've BKB'd a few times and it only lasts a few seconds. You have to make every second count, so you have to hold it until the last second or you might not have enough immunity to get the job done.

    It just seems stupid for stuns to do so much damage when they're already preventing the victim from doing anything for a couple of seconds. Sure, their cooldown tends to be longer than pure nukes, but that doesn't really matter when you can take 2-5x as much damage in those 2 seconds of stun as you would from two of those nukes, and there's nothing stopping teams from layering stuns one after another, each doing significant damage on its own, plus keeping the victim stuck in place.

    It just seems like stuns being as powerful as they are, and stormbolt-style stuns in particular, is really skill-independent and one of the dumber things in the game, IMO.
    So what you're telling me is, stuns make you have to think about when you use certain items or spells in order to succesfully win the fight and can be used to lock down an important target for a long time if you're experienced enough with said stuns to not layer them ontop of eachother.

    I don't see what the problem is.

    And I promise you that the longer cooldown on stuns matter, when comparing them to pure nukes. Sure you could stun a target and go beat them up and it would potentially do more damage than that one other spell that isn't a stun, but then suddenly if that target doesn't die during your stun and actually manages to gain some distance from you, you'd wish you had one of those medium-cooldown nukes á la Dragon Slave to snipe them with.

  8. #3388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varix View Post
    So what you're telling me is, stuns make you have to think about when you use certain items or spells in order to succesfully win the fight and can be used to lock down an important target for a long time if you're experienced enough with said stuns to not layer them ontop of eachother.

    I don't see what the problem is.
    Not really. The timing is on the person with the BKB, not the person casting the stun. Layering stuns is not hard - most stuns only last two seconds, so even if you don't layer them properly you're at most clipping off a small fraction of a second. Stun, wait a beat, stun again.

    And I promise you that the longer cooldown on stuns matter, when comparing them to pure nukes. Sure you could stun a target and go beat them up and it would potentially do more damage than that one other spell that isn't a stun, but then suddenly if that target doesn't die during your stun and actually manages to gain some distance from you, you'd wish you had one of those medium-cooldown nukes á la Dragon Slave to snipe them with.
    Sven will do more damage with a stormbolt and two swings than two Dragon Slaves combined would do, in less time, and while also making his target easy pickings for the rest of his team.

    To an extent we're comparing apples and oranges, but fruit is still fruit. Stuns should not fucking be nukes, you should not get a disable combined with a nuke in a single package, not unless it requires some actual relevant fucking skill instead of "press Q, click target, collect gold."
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  9. #3389
    How do you like silencer, then? Against a hero like Viper he can combine his two nukes and you lose 400 health and have to base or die. Screw stuns, I'll take "instantly winning any potential lane combination your enemy can think of" for 800.

    As a side note, BKB isn't a counter for stuns, having your own stuns is. BKB is an immunity window with which to do damage, it's less about being CCed and more about not being blown the f*** up. If you're PA with no BKB, sure getting stunned sucks, but eating something like wall+vac+slave+laguna blade sucks a whole lot more. If you want to stop storm bolt you bring impale, etc.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-13 at 08:36 AM.
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  10. #3390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    How do you like silencer, then? Against a hero like Viper he can combine his two nukes and you lose 400 health and have to base or die. Screw stuns, I'll take "instantly winning any potential lane combination your enemy can think of" for 800.
    Silencer isn't in CM for a reason, he's not considered "done." In that specific case I think you'd just have to change lanes. Considering that Silencer is still a kind of poopy semi-carry, it seems like the only reason to take him aside from his ulti is his potential to screw up enemy lanes.

    As a side note, BKB isn't a counter for stuns, having your own stuns is. BKB is an immunity window with which to do damage, it's less about being CCed and more about not being blown the f*** up. If you're PA with no BKB, sure getting stunned sucks, but eating something like wall+vac+slave+laguna blade sucks a whole lot more. If you want to stop storm bolt you bring impale, etc.
    Getting stunned generally means you're eating 300+ damage on top of the stun, which is a pretty standard amount of damage for a nuke. What irritates me is that stuns would still be immensely powerful even if they did zero damage. Now I'm not saying they should make stuns do 0 damage, certainly not in one fell swoop... but I do think they do too much damage when you consider the fact that they're stunning.

    Hell, several stuns can even hit multiple targets, so you can't use the "well it only hits one target, Dragon Slave can hit multiple!" excuse there.
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  11. #3391
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    To an extent we're comparing apples and oranges, but fruit is still fruit. Stuns should not fucking be nukes, you should not get a disable combined with a nuke in a single package, not unless it requires some actual relevant fucking skill instead of "press Q, click target, collect gold."
    It is hard to make a convincing argument, but the problem I think with the discussion you and me are having is that we're assuming best-case scenarios for certain things.

    Sure that guy might've gotten away from your stun and you wished you had a low-cooldown nuke to finish the job.
    Sure that Sven might've killed you because that extra damage in his stun was just enough to bring you down.

    But fact remains that both you and I know that Dota 2 is a teamgame and while there MIGHT be some scenarios where that damage component on that stun screwed you over or not having that low-cooldown nuke screwed you over, but for each one of those scenarios there is at least one or more alternatives where your team was able to save you/pick up the slack.

    I personally don't see the issue in the stun/damage combo of spells á la Storm Hammer, its stun duration isn't that long and the nuke damage isn't that big, but it does bring them both in one spell.

  12. #3392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varix View Post
    I personally don't see the issue in the stun/damage combo of spells á la Storm Hammer, its stun duration isn't that long and the nuke damage isn't that big, but it does bring them both in one spell.
    That's where it rubs me the wrong way. But I agree, it's hard to quantify it without dealing with hypotheticals... I just don't like the fact that heroes can mindlessly spam stuns in the first 20-25 minutes of the game and basically get kills simply because the two stuns themselves do enough damage to nearly kill a hero, even if they can't stack the durations for shit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
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  13. #3393
    Make some bloody sense will you. If stuns can't damage, then where would the damage come from on those heroes? Would Lina need a new skill because LSA can't deal damage? Would Sven need another 140 manacost 14 second cooldown nuke to compensate for the lack of damage? Or should he just be hey I'm early-game Sven and I stun you for 2 seconds and kill you, and by you I mean nobody. Taking damage off stuns would kill certain heroes, and the only point when the damage isn't that important is in late-game when you have something else, like your carry, doing the damage, which is when the disable itself is vital and the damage always isn't. If your heroes lack disable you can compensate with items and if your enemy has what you feel is too many of them you can again compensate with items and playstyle.

    Stacking stuns was a great mid-tier HoN strategy (which I suppose applies to dota too), after that it will cease to be as effective. This argument overall seems flat-out stupid, you can't make any change in it without fundamentally breaking the game and I've never seen anyone sane suggest there's something broken about stuns that damage or Storm Hammer, other than it being too easy to dodge and having a long cooldown.
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  14. #3394
    you can dodge most stuns

  15. #3395
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    I agree that some forms of stuns are pretty brutal, especially early game, but remember that for heroes like Sven and Skeleton King, it's the only way they can get you in range before you run away or CC them back and they're like "oh okay then". Most other heroes' stuns can be dodged, aren't very long or cost like half their mana pool.

    Besides, if you get caught by them alone and they kill you, it's not the ability that's OP, really.

  16. #3396
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    If stuns can't damage, then where would the damage come from on those heroes?
    Their fucking teammates? God forbid heroes are designed to be used together with other heroes rather than being one-stop shops for everything you need.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    you can dodge most stuns
    Aside from breaking LOS or playing a hero like QoP or AM or maybe Sand King, not very many, and Sven's can't be disjointed at all. Blink daggers are trivially easy to break.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftero View Post
    I agree that some forms of stuns are pretty brutal, especially early game, but remember that for heroes like Sven and Skeleton King, it's the only way they can get you in range before you run away or CC them back and they're like "oh okay then". Most other heroes' stuns can be dodged, aren't very long or cost like half their mana pool.

    Besides, if you get caught by them alone and they kill you, it's not the ability that's OP, really.
    That's part of why Force Staff and Blink Dagger are highly recommended on Leoric, Sven, and similar heroes.

    What's fucking stupid is the stupid bullshit damage on stuns allowing players with zero relevant skill to win fights because they can mash Q and then click a target. It's part of why Sven+VS is such a stupidly fucking dangerous lane to deal with - even if they stun at the same time and you're stuck for 2 seconds instead of 4 seconds, you're eating anywhere from 150-470 damage (counting 25% MR) damage up front, and that's a very appreciable portion of just about any hero's HP at the 15-20 minute range.

    I just think allowing stuns - particularly stormbolt stuns, which require literally no skill to use, they don't require positioning or timing like a Mirana arrow or even a Burrowstrike - to deal that much up front damage really lowers the skill ceiling for the game. There's no fucking need for them to deal that kind of damage AND stun. If you time the spells properly you should easily be able to net a kill with the several auto attacks (not to mention other spells) you can squeeze off while they're sitting their with their thumb up their ass, even if you don't deal seventy fucking percent of their HP just for clicking your Q button.

    Obviously, I could be wrong, but I seriously think it's fucking boring to watch one team stack a bunch of stuns and pretty much faceroll the other team by virtue of just spamming their stuns.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-13 at 05:59 AM ----------

    BTW Lysah while we're on the subject of Sven, you should build him Kunkka-style sometime. After the buffs to his ulti and cleave he's almost like a better, more consistent Kunkka now. Been building Soul Ring, Phase Boots, Armlet, Lothar's, and eventually a Daedalus. I've tried MoM but I'm not sure if it's the best choice since it prevents other orbs (Deso would probably be my second choice I think), but the extra attack speed is nice since I go phase boots instead of treads. Makes Sven really hard to run away from since he'll move so fast and with your free DD rune you can cleave some pretty huge crits.

    I haven't seen the "pirate steps out of shadows and one-shots your team," potential, but I might be building him wrong... and at any rate, even if he doesn't have quite as much burst, it feels more consistent since you don't have to wait for Tidebringer procs to try for another instagib crit cleave. Soul Ring seems pretty important for mana since popping everything at once and then following it up with a stun after you exit windwalk really eats a lot of Sven's mana.
    Last edited by PizzaSHARK; 2012-11-13 at 11:59 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
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  17. #3397
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Their fucking teammates? God forbid heroes are designed to be used together with other heroes rather than being one-stop shops for everything you need.
    Well, it's been like a week since you went on a baseless rant over something absurd so I suppose it's about time again. I seriously suggest you go play league if you don't like being stunned.

    Removing damage from stunning abilities would render just about every STR utility/caster useless (ES, SK, Tiny, Ogre...) and a lot of other heroes too. No hero in the game does everything great either, but you already knew that.
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  18. #3398
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    I seriously suggest you go play league if you don't like being stunned.
    As far as I am concerned, the discussion was never so much about being stunned as it was some stuns doing a respectable amount of damage ontop of the stun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Removing damage from stunning abilities would render just about every STR utility/caster useless (ES, SK, Tiny, Ogre...) and a lot of other heroes too. No hero in the game does everything great either, but you already knew that.
    Unless I completely misunderstood something, I don't think it was ever suggested that damage should be removed from all stuns. I am by no means going to pretend that I have the overview or experience to make respectable and 100% sensible balance changes, but I am juggling with the idea of "What if" Sven's stun did not have a damage component. It's no secret that since patch 6.75, getting caught by a Sven in a position where he can actually take some swings at you, basically feels like being rammed with a train with his ultimate.

  19. #3399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varix View Post
    As far as I am concerned, the discussion was never so much about being stunned as it was some stuns doing a respectable amount of damage ontop of the stun.
    Exactly. Stormbolt-style stuns, which require no real skill on the caster's part, should not do as much damage as they currently do. You're getting a stun that doesn't have to be aimed or positioned ahead of time - you should not also get a powerful nuke with the package. It should do some damage, but it really shouldn't be competitive with more dedicated nuke skills, which don't have a disable. I'd probably experiment with a 10% damage nerf (about 90/158/203/270 damage or so) to all stormbolt-style skills and see where that leaves things.
    Last edited by PizzaSHARK; 2012-11-13 at 02:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  20. #3400
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Exactly. Stormbolt-style stuns, which require no real skill on the caster's part, should not do as much damage as they currently do. You're getting a stun that doesn't have to be aimed or positioned ahead of time - you should not also get a powerful nuke with the package. It should do some damage, but it really shouldn't be competitive with more dedicated nuke skills, which don't have a disable. I'd probably experiment with a 10% damage nerf (about 90/158/203/270 damage or so) to all stormbolt-style skills and see where that leaves things.
    Even though we can agree on the subject matter, I still disagree with them being too powerful. I honestly don't think it is a problem.

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