1. #3441
    Because the actual game is fun as hell, it's the meta and team play aspects I can't stand. Losing a game because of other people, and even winning a game because of other people, not very interesting.

    I have never complained that someone won because they picked Centaur. You're still confusing my arguments. Trying not to sound too arrogant here, but I could very easily fit into coL or EG as far as American pro teams go. I was actually invited to coL already. It is virtually impossible to have more experience with this genre than me, I have played DotA since the earliest versions and I played games like AoS before that. Even back in the infant years of WC3 when "MOBA" was just "hero arena," I was there.

    I think of myself like chess grand masters. It's not so much supreme intellect or massive skill that makes me the best, it's just pure experience. After some tens of thousands of games over the majority of my lifetime I really have seen or thought of any possible situation for the game. The biggest issue here is that I'm still playing with new players because it is a team game, chess GMs don't have to get frustrated like this because their game is 1v1.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-14 at 10:40 PM.
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  2. #3442
    Fluffy Kitten llDemonll's Avatar
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    So the game is fun, but you don't like losing because someone (or some peoples) on your team repeatedly make stupid mistakes? Understandable, I think most people are the same way, I know I am.

    But you don't like winning when someone (or some peoples) on your team are making great plays?

    Basically, you think the game should revolve directly around your play? This seems exactly like what you're trying to portray by saying you'd fit into the team and bragging about being invited to a pro team but declining the invite. Something tells me that you don't "belong" (for lack of a better word) in team-based games
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  3. #3443
    Quote Originally Posted by llDemonll View Post
    But you don't like winning when someone (or some peoples) on your team are making great plays?
    Sorry, I won't disagree with this, but what I was aiming for was "I don't like winning when my enemies make stupid mistakes."

    Actually, if you go through my recent history, I have a bunch of losses where I was godlike or better with nothing but feeder allies. I have a bunch of wins where my team was losing the entire time and should not have won, but someone on the enemy team got picked and that was that. It's not fun to win or lose like this, but this is 95% of DotA matches.

    What I want is to be bad at the game again, to have room to grow and something to look forward to. To be able to look at my losses and pick out things I could have done better that would have *mattered.* To be able to look at my enemies' mistakes and be grateful I was able to exploit them, instead of just accepting it as an inevitability.

    I actually appreciate young player perspective on this issue, because they have a more pure and realistic view of the game since they are not biased by experience and knowledge. Trixie herself has admitted that the game is only interesting for the lane phase, and why is that? Because once team fights and pushes start happening, one team is clearly the winner already, and the only way the game plays out in any other direction is a big mistake by one person. This is how DotA is for me, I can call the winner of a game by 15 minutes and be right 90% of the time, the other 10% are just dumb mistakes someone makes that lose the game for his entire team. It's the "got free farm top - bought divine rapier" effect, except more profound. Why do you think pros stack power lanes now instead of playing for late game?


    DotA will change, it always does, and it will be more interesting when it does. Until then, the most fun I've had are games where I get a colletive agreement from my team not to care about winning. My favorite games have been games where we did 5 as a lane or 4 man ganked mid three times in a row at the start of the game.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-14 at 10:52 PM.
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  4. #3444
    Most people don't realize that playing MOBA's competitively means focusing on one role exclusively (carry, roamer, jungle etc...) with couple different heroes at most, 8-10 hours a day for months, no wonder burnout rate is so high. Also, considering it's a team game, money gets split on equal shares, while blame is probably not.

    Also, think of team as a chain, chain is as strong as it's weakest link, it's really demoralizing to give your best only to have someone destroying all your work through incompetence or maliciousness, I'd say losing a close game is more satisfying than just destroying opponents. Sadly, I haven't played many close games of dota, it's either stomp or get stomped, and most cases your own performance doesn't matter because some players literally don't belong in the same game. In my opinion, matchmaking system either needs to be greatly improved or completely reworked, this one just doesn't work.

  5. #3445
    Quote Originally Posted by cudomix View Post
    Most people don't realize that playing MOBA's competitively means focusing on one role exclusively (carry, roamer, jungle etc...) with couple different heroes at most, 8-10 hours a day for months, no wonder burnout rate is so high. Also, considering it's a team game, money gets split on equal shares, while blame is probably not.
    Yes, my time with a team during CAL was warlock, warlock, warlock, warlock, warlock, warlock, okay I'm bored.

    And yes, the matchmaking system is a huge problem for me. When I queue with a brand new player (literally zero MOBA experience) and we get a page 4 out of 700 game, people who are only barely worse than what I get when I solo queue WHILE I HAVE A BRAND NEW PLAYER ON MY TEAM, why even play? It doesn't matter what I do, they will abuse the skill difference in her lane and it will win them the game, hands down, every time.
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  6. #3446
    Fluffy Kitten llDemonll's Avatar
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    ^ make a nub account and use the mouse with your left hand; problem solved!

    I see what you're saying. Really good games like that are maybe once or twice a week for me (depending on how much I play). Games where it's a tossup as to who will win and it comes down to the last teamfight. Those games are definitely more rewarding than going 25-4 with void and the end score is 56-21 or something (though 25-4 is still possible on the close games if your carry is good at surviving)

    But yea, the laning phase in the first 15 minutes I'd say is a pretty accurate (maybe 80%) representation of who will win the game, at least in the normal/high brackets (though i'm probably 80% in normal bracket), especially playing pubs. with premades and captains mode the comebacks are more likely, but still don't happen super often

    doesnt make me enjoy the game any less =P
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  7. #3447
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    people who are only barely worse than what I get when I solo queue WHILE I HAVE A BRAND NEW PLAYER ON MY TEAM, why even play? It doesn't matter what I do, they will abuse the skill difference in her lane and it will win them the game, hands down, every time.
    This is probably the most infuriating aspect of DotA 2 for me. I've started flat out refusing playing -ap with friends of my friends (who are so new it hurts). I don't have an issue with people being sub-par if I don't know them. However, if it's someone I'm communicating with through Skype, and they just blame their mistakes on something completely unrelated - I can't handle it.

    I do play with newer friends of mine through a mule account, but that's different.

    The laning phase is probably what I find the least interesting: draft > midgame > lategame > teamfights > killing roshan > laning phase

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  8. #3448
    @demon
    Ironically I just played a good game for the first time in a while. We got badly outmatched (lina ogre against centaur VS) in our lane so we went roaming and got some ganks up. We had drow + support against WR farming and they had syllabear jungling, bane/lesh mid. As far as team comp went it was pretty even and the game turned out that way as well. No one on either team particularly stood out as being out of place, it actually felt like a fair game for once.

    @longview
    I don't mind playing with new players like Trixie as far as trying to teach her the game and all. The big issue is that the matchmaking system really does not seem to care that she is so new, we get games that are still relatively my level and she just gets stomped every time. When you average 0-10 every game and enemies players are WAY above you in lane control it's really hard to learn anything. And it's not particularly fun for me to try to save 0-10 allies every game, either, of course.

    I don't know what a good fix is. For sure, if we played against people in her bracket I would just go 30-0 every game and it wouldn't be fair to the enemy team. My solution has always been a non-rated league with no stats and no matchmaking, first come first serve. The amount of goods and bads on each team should average out somewhere.
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  9. #3449
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I don't know what a good fix is. For sure, if we played against people in her bracket I would just go 30-0 every game and it wouldn't be fair to the enemy team. My solution has always been a non-rated league with no stats and no matchmaking, first come first serve. The amount of goods and bads on each team should average out somewhere.
    HoN did public non-rated games fairly all right, it worked much like WC3 DotA: Just summarize all non-private lobbies in a list, with a filter. The trick was to get all your midskill friends and create/join the first "NOOBS ONLY" game you could find.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I don't mind playing with new players like Trixie as far as trying to teach her the game and all. The big issue is that the matchmaking system really does not seem to care that she is so new, we get games that are still relatively my level and she just gets stomped every time.
    Yeah, that makes sense. My lane gets just that bit easier while the new guy is 0-5 mid. Much like playing a five-man coordinated stack in public -cm, it takes all the fun out of the game. Winning is great, but stomping is not fun. Losing is alright, but losing solely because you have one (or two) fresh players is not fun.
    Last edited by Longview; 2012-11-15 at 12:37 AM.

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  10. #3450
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I don't know what a good fix is. For sure, if we played against people in her bracket I would just go 30-0 every game and it wouldn't be fair to the enemy team. My solution has always been a non-rated league with no stats and no matchmaking, first come first serve. The amount of goods and bads on each team should average out somewhere.
    yeah, this sucks i have 2 friends that i would love to play but i cant becasue they wont learn anything while being stomped
    i guess you can make a fresh account but after one good game i was already in same bracket as on my main...
    Last edited by Finear; 2012-11-15 at 12:52 AM.

  11. #3451
    The system appears to adjust up very quickly and not so much down. I've gone from 80% to 50% wins steadily over the past like 500 games playing with friends and my MMR does not appear to have changed whatsoever. I'll go on a 20 game streak that might have 2 or 3 wins in the middle and go back to solo queue only to see the exact same names as before.
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  12. #3452
    Perhaps that's intentional, to avoid people lowering their MMR through throwing games? Theoretically, I don't see how someone could get worse (except for not playing for long periods of time - but I am confident that Valve has some sort of decay for MMR).

    edit: additionally, MMR has seemingly very little to do with wins/losses, that's just the most obvious conclusion.
    Last edited by Longview; 2012-11-15 at 01:10 AM.

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  13. #3453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    If you ever expected anything else, you've effectively wasted 400 hours.
    I was expecting that those mechanics would become less stupid as I improved my play, not more stupid. RNG mechanics and overpowered stun mechanics serve to dramatically lessen the amount of individual player skill required to succeed to the point that in many games, whoever gets the stun off first wins by default. It's the same kind of shit I stopped playing WoW because of - only, because Valve is taking Dota 2 seriously, I was actually hoping they'd realize how badly designed mechanics like that are.

    Out of curiosity, what shooters have you played competitively?
    DoD:S, UT2k4, and CS:S. I'd really like to get into Tribes Ascend but my poor computer can barely manage 20 fps on most maps and that's simply not enough for a fast-paced game like that.
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  14. #3454
    Tribes is perhaps even more frustrating than DotA in how your team can lose you games =p
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  15. #3455
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    The system appears to adjust up very quickly and not so much down. I've gone from 80% to 50% wins steadily over the past like 500 games playing with friends and my MMR does not appear to have changed whatsoever. I'll go on a 20 game streak that might have 2 or 3 wins in the middle and go back to solo queue only to see the exact same names as before.
    Yeah, my winrate pretty much took a nose dive when I was at around 400 wins when I started playing a lot with really casual friends - at one point I had like 20% winrate with one guy over 40 or so games. It was alright after I completely stopped trying to win games, but things did get a lot better when I got an alt account.



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  16. #3456
    Playing games way out of my league ruined my MMR. That, and being bad. I'd like to think it's elements of both.


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  17. #3457
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Tribes is perhaps even more frustrating than DotA in how your team can lose you games =p
    That's true, but I do think personal skill has a lot more impact there - a single light that really knows routes and how to ski well can damned near win a game all on his own as long as his idiot teammates don't llama grab the flag while he's screaming in at half the speed of light. And Hi-Rez apparently put in penalties and stuff to discourage players from doing those llama grabs, last I heard.

    That might be my source of frustration in Dota in regards to my own games - that it seems like you're triple-fucked no matter what role or hero you choose if your teammates really are just bad at the game. My source of frustration in regards to increasingly boring pro games is directly related to what I'd consider to be poorly designed mechanics, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
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  18. #3458
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I was expecting that those mechanics would become less stupid as I improved my play, not more stupid. RNG mechanics and overpowered stun mechanics serve to dramatically lessen the amount of individual player skill required to succeed to the point that in many games, whoever gets the stun off first wins by default. It's the same kind of shit I stopped playing WoW because of - only, because Valve is taking Dota 2 seriously, I was actually hoping they'd realize how badly designed mechanics like that are.



    DoD:S, UT2k4, and CS:S. I'd really like to get into Tribes Ascend but my poor computer can barely manage 20 fps on most maps and that's simply not enough for a fast-paced game like that.
    I played CS:S semi professionally, training alongside some top flight ESL players in scrims when a member was unavailable, I also played iCTF UT GOTY in lots of private tournaments. CS:S I stopped playing because I just get banned from every server for pub stomping. The only difference from Dota is you can win the game by yourself.

    Is that what you hate about dota? That you can't win by yourself?
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  19. #3459
    Fluffy Kitten llDemonll's Avatar
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    I think it's more of the fact that one really bad teammate who doesn't take criticism or direction can really affect the outcome of the game in a negative way
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  20. #3460
    Quote Originally Posted by llDemonll View Post
    I think it's more of the fact that one really bad teammate who doesn't take criticism or direction can really affect the outcome of the game in a negative way
    Is this much different in any online game with a team? I assume the larger the team size, the less that one individual affects you. But also with a larger team size, you have the chance of having more than one teammate who is counter-productive.

    Perhaps for the people who hate this aspect of dota, you would prefer a single player online game? There are plenty to choose from I would say. Play a FPS on a non-team mode, play a sports game like nba2kwhatever, madden 20xx, etc, play SC2. Play chess like it was suggested, though I hear queens are crazy OP. Those bitches can move like anywhere, they need to be nerfed.

    Personally, I have several games to play depending on my mood. Sometimes I want the randomness of dota2 team making, working together with a new team is a rewarding experience. Sometimes I'm frustrated by a bad team and I'll move on to a FPS or some WoW for the evening.

    If you really like dota but hate having bad teammates, then only group with people you know or have played with before and then you don't have to worry. I really don't get why this is an issue. There are drawbacks to dota, just like any game. But there are steps you can take to mitigate them, or not play altogether. Insanity is doing the same thing repeatedly and expecting different results, I think this applies here.

    @Pizza, AGAIN another post from you where something is OP. And comparing it to WoW also. I just.... don't know what to say to you at this point. If dota is simply a matter of who stuns who first, then I imagine you should form a competitive team, pick 5 heros with stuns, and faceroll to victory? The more and more you speak about dota, the less and less I think you have a clue what you are talking about. Though now it has spread to WoW also.

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