But let's assume that you aren't struggling and what you say works (even though I don't see it happening). You will still push the lane a lot and TA will still get her levels and some farm. I don't see how that is considered a "stomp" since SK is pretty useless with early game farm compared to most mid heroes.
A level 1 TA already winning her lane? Sorry, I don't buy it. She takes psi blades and you simply avoid them. She takes refraction and she only has melee range, she will eat the creeps trying to fight you.
All of you keep pretending that TA starts the game with 400 range and 6 stack refraction. She is just as weak at low level as any other hero, probably more so. She needs ALL THREE of her abilities to be useful. Low psi blades? No range. Low meld? No damage. Low refraction? No survivability. TA is a bad hero because she's just as bad at winning her lane as any other hard carry; how often do you see PL go mid? TA goes mid because she HAS to, and that will end when people figure out that they don't need to send Invoker or QoP mid 100% of the time.
She still has better base damage than Sand King at level 1. She takes Refraction at level 1 to get ALL last hits. You can't deny her that, you have nothinig as Sand King to deny her last hits if she has Refraction up. Three charges are good enough to deal with a level 1 melee hero such as Sand King.
She will probably hit level 2 faster. If you take Caustic at level 1, you push the lane, granting her free experience and last hits. If you take Burrowstrike you are basically no threat whatsoever so she can just freely last hit. At level 2 she gets Psi Blades. You have at level 2 one Caustic and one Burrowstrike. That won't do anything to her. Sure, you can harass her a bit but her starting regen items will allow her to tank the damage and still get her gold. You can in no way kill her this early. She will probably out last hit you due to Refraction damage though. This will let her get her Bottle before you most likely. And so on and so on. I don't see how a SK would "stomp" TA.
TA is strong mid because very few heroes that benefit from going mid can actually beat her. Heroes with high nuke spells don't do shit against Refraction. Heroes such as Invoker that rely on either Cold Snap or high auto attack damage for lane dominance don't stand a chance because TA hits harder with Refraction.
Last edited by Ariadne; 2012-11-18 at 03:59 AM.
You have your image of DotA and your image of TA and repeating the same things over and over won't change that. I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree until someone can provide proof that changes either of our minds. I can't really show you how much damage a TA would take if she right clicked SK at level 2, four creeps aggroing her will drain her refraction instantly, you just have to imagine it on your own. The big difference between the two heroes right now is that SK puts up his pressure passively, TA needs to spam refraction *just to stay in the lane.* Without refraction up she can't get near the creeps to CS, which means she is ALREADY on the defensive. The second she fails to use refraction she eats a caustic, which means that she can't ever piss the creeps off by attacking SK or they will clear refraction for him and she will get blown up. Furthermore, if she tries to meld him, he just sandstorms, and they're at a stand off - except oh wait, she's taking permanent AoE damage until she moves, so again, sand king wins by forcing her to run.
Maybe you've never seen TA lose mid and have high respect for her as a result. That's fine, all skill brackets are different. In my experience, TA rarely wins mid, at best she struggles to stay even and is basically pulling the same strategy as suicide lane BH. That is, get leveled up fast so you can teleport gank when people start roaming. TA isn't useful because of her mid - she's useful because when you 3 man gank their top lane and she teleports in at level 8 she can clean up all 3 of you for a triple kill. THAT is where her gold comes from, not being a mega mid pick. Her ultimate is one of the best cleanup skills in the game for the transition from early to mid game, especially when refraction allows her to literally 1v3 some low health casters because they can't hurt her with their nukes.
Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-18 at 04:19 AM.
Why would you ever right click a Sand King at level 2 as TA? That alone just shows how you lack understanding of playing mid. As a TA I wouldn't prioritize denying Sand King getting gold or experience. My prio is to get last hits and experience myself. You have no pressure at early levels. That is the thing. Low level Caustic or Burrowstrike does zero damage on TA due to refraction. The only way for you to get rid of three stacks at early levels is to right-click her. But then you get creep aggro and push lane.
With Refraction you can't out-last hit a TA. So you are already losing the CS war. And you got no way to harass her as SK. If you can explain how you plan to be a threat to TA from level 1-4 as Sand King and how you plan to deny her last hits and experience then maybe. How do you plan to get rid off her three charges of Refraction? And even if you manage to, what will 90 damage Caustics do? How do you plan to do the multiple Caustics without hitting the creeps more than once? You have to get them all low at the same time = you push the lane because you are right clicking creeps extra much.
And your Sand Storm argument is silly. She can use the Meld to take a last hit instead. And you better be really fast to be able to Sand Storm a melee range Meld. A long range meld, sure, but why would she do that against a Sand King?
QoP can right click off Refraction and nuke on demand. And still she struggles against a TA. Whilst SK has nothing to take off Refraction and his Caustic can't be triggered on demand unless you use Burrowstrike and even that is dodgy. And to get multiple Caustics off at same time you have to right click extra.
If there are many heroes that can make her "struggle to stay even" why do pros such as syndereN and Puppey consider her so strong mid? People ask them how to beat TA mid and they say that barely any hero does. So unless in your skill bracket people pick heroes to counter TA mid I don't see why any TA would lose mid unless they're a worse player.
Last edited by Ariadne; 2012-11-18 at 05:53 PM.
I don't see SK beating her, but I don't think she's SUPER PRO OMG tier, either.
Last edited by Ariadne; 2012-11-18 at 11:09 PM.
You don't have to kill TA to beat her. Honestly, Lich would stomp her mid just by denying a creep every wave. You still act like refraction is some ultra godmode and no one can ever do any damage to her and she can just run circles around the creeps giggling with delight as she tanks everything.
Anyone who isn't asleep can beat TA mid, it's not about stopping her from getting a single last hit. Hell, Huskar is a fantastic pick for the job. Once you hit 6 and buy dust she's dead, period. She can refract the ult all she wants, she's still dead. Beating TA mid is about picking a hero who can force her out at level 5-6. She isn't very good at ganking at level 6 and as long as your team also isn't asleep they will kill her in the side lanes as well.
Viper can work, Brood can work. Sniper, Gyro, NA, Weaver, Beast, Axe, Lion, a good Tiny or Bane just to name a few heroes off the top of my head who can outright beat a TA repeatedly in mid. If we lived in a perfect world where dust didn't exist, TA might beat every hero so easily. Unfortunately for her, 180g is a hard counter to invis heroes by design. SK isn't a good pick because he can outright stop her, he's a good pick because SHE can't stop HIM.
As far as the pros go, here's another case where you should stop believing everything you hear on T.V. Again, I have a huge laugh any time someone mentions the pro scene to try to draw credibility for their argument. You don't play in tournament games, I don't play in tournament games, so why does anything they say have any relevance to us? How many of the heroes I just listed do you see them pick AT ALL, let alone send mid? They don't have a counter for TA because their hero pool is 25 heroes big, not 100.
Even Dazzle could beat TA mid.
Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-18 at 11:37 PM.
Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-11-19 at 12:04 AM.
If you don't kill a TA you have to get more CS than him. Else you don't beat her. How you gonna play a Lich mid? Yes, you deny a creep. Rest of the last hits is hers. Even if you break even or a little less as TA. What is a Lich gonna do with all the farm? You are giving Lich the #2 position. So TA will be more useful than Lich will ever be in the current version.
Good job explaining how a SK can beat a TA mid? You just say "that and that hero can beat TA mid" as if they are facts. SK can't beat TA mid if equally skilled There is no way. But you say SK would "stomp" TA mid. I countered all your arguements. You lack basic understanding of how to play mid. You are the one actually believing a TA would right click a SK at level 2.
And why would a TA care about stopping SK mid. The team SK is in is already sacrificing the #2 postiion to a SK. That is enough. TA will come out on on top in mid against SK due to superior last hitting and SK can't do shit about it. You just said yourself now in your latest post that SK can't stop TA. A TA with farm is far more useful than SK with farm or experience.
You just list heroes based on some spells they have but don't realize how it would pan out.
How the hell does Axe counter TA? She just hits a damn creep and your hunger is off. TA counters Axe. Axe with zero armor = useless. Her traps stops you from moving anywhere so what are you gonna do in fights. You usally don't build Dagger on Axe anymore. You go Tranquil/Phase and being so reliant on movement speed, TA will counter.
Gyro how?! You HAVE NO BASE DAMAGE to deny TA gold or experience. I don't understand how you cannot get that. What does a Gyrocopter have that makes him counter TA? His first skill? Grats, you just got rid of Refraction, now what?
That you say Dust counters her is just silly. Her power mid doesn't come from Meld. Meld is just used for damage anyways. You don't sit in Meld very often. Her strength mid comes from having the highest damage in the game at early levels to last hit with and her being immune to any nuke spells and at the same time harass you.
And I was referring to Puppey and syndereN on TalkDota where a person asks how to deal with TA mid. Both of them tried to think of ANY hero to counter her mid. Not only the ones in the current meta. Even Axe was brought up and Puppey said TA counters Axe. You say Axe counters TA. Damn. Guess I should listen to you. I find it funny that you discredit anything anyone says if they mention a professional name. I don't know waht bracket you play in but on my MMR (Very High), the hero pool isn't 100. People most often pick heroes that are used in current pro scene meta and the only way heroes like Sniper, Dazzle and such would be in my games would be because of Random.
Last edited by Ariadne; 2012-11-19 at 12:34 AM.
I shouldn't have to tell you that the game is longer than 8 minutes and TA getting 50 cs mid isn't an automatic victory for her entire team. I left that part out because it was a given.
Gyro wins mid against almost any hero because the range on flak cannon is long enough that you can't really avoid it. You also can't do a damn thing about missile spam when he gets a bottle, though this doesn't really pertain to TA specifically. I'm surprised you're so new at this, none of this information should be all that surprising to you. I get the feeling that I'm talking to someone who hasn't seen more than a dozen heroes go mid in his life, so, I don't really have the time to type you a book about DotA strategy.
Realize this, every single hero in the game can successfully mid. It isn't a special lane. TA mid is no different from TA bot, what changes is who YOU send mid to counter her. The heroes people pick for mid are sent there because the heroes the enemy will send to counter them will likely be in other lanes, it is as simple as that.
I haven't even begun getting into a 1v2 lane if you wanted to actually shut TA down. I've been discussing the option of equalizing her farm and pushing her out of lane during the transition window to mid game.
As far as MMR goes, if you're not getting page 1 games you're below average. We had a talk about what average means, and while I ordinarily support average being "the average skill with all players taken into account," right now we're discussing strategy. The difference between the people I play with and even "good" players is extreme. The people you look up to when you watch streams are the people I play with on a regular basis. I'm not trying to talk down to anyone here, I'm simply trying to impress that you cannot learn anything when your attitude is "copy puppey Lysah must be some no skill pub rando lololol." You have to realize how much you don't know before you can start to learn any of it.
If TA always wins mid in your DotA matches then by all means pick her every time and get a 100% win rate. I'm talking about theory, not what will always play out in every game in the world. It really is no different from what puppey said - his discussion was the same as ours is now - theory.
Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-19 at 01:59 AM.
Viper wins by default due to his high damage with Nethertoxin (very easy last hit/deny) and the fact that he's a flying counter to defensive Refraction - his orb, his defensive passive, his ultimate all bleed charges. Like Veno, he'd win simply by harassing TA away from the creeps with his orb. Once he hits 6, TA has to hug the tower or Viper WILL kill her without even having to try. Also, Viper is far from a weak hero. He's seen as weak because people are stupid and pretend he's a hard-carry when he fucking isn't. He's an anti-carry, like Razor. 80% attack speed and move speed slow with ~50% uptime that ignores BKB? Yeah, watch your team's carry do absolutely fucking nothing if Viper is around, and watch Viper just laugh at your attempts to kill him when he's built properly.
Zeus? Probably the same thing as Veno and Viper, through different means. Arc Lightning strips off Refraction, then zap her with Lightning Bolt and repeat until she has to go hide. Not certain, but Zeus' passive is also classified as magical damage, which means it should strip off Refraction charges - so each Arc Lightning cast should be stripping two charges per cast, if I'm understanding that right. But again, that's speculation. What isn't speculation is that once he hits level 5, Zeus will easily force TA away from the creep line due to continuous, heavy burst damage.
TA was OP before the bugfixes came in. Meld was doing way more damage than it was supposed to, it was why she was able to instagib people with no items at like level 7. Once they fixed Meld's damage calculation, she was and still is fine.
Dazzle can't be harassed away from the creep lines, Poison Touch will strip off Refraction charges and functions as a stun (and once he gets Medallion, also does a surprising amount of damage for very little cost), and Dazzle has very high base damage combined with very high damage-stat gains and a great attack animation. Dazzle's ultimate also counters TA's Meld, not just for the 1v1 but also for all engagements.ps: Dazzle can't beat lanaya. Not in here or in any other parallel universe.
Axe can't really be harassed. Punching him just gives him more farm, and unless you're far away, there's a good chance he's gonna hit you with it, too. Battle Hunger could be skipped in favor of earlier taunt and maxed spin. I don't see him winning CS versus TA, though.How the hell does Axe counter TA? She just hits a damn creep and your hunger is off. TA counters Axe. Axe with zero armor = useless. Her traps stops you from moving anywhere so what are you gonna do in fights. You usally don't build Dagger on Axe anymore. You go Tranquil/Phase and being so reliant on movement speed, TA will counter.
Gyro could very, very easily kill TA with proper timing. Missile can be cast from far away and forces TA to back off (there's no way she'll be able to kill it before it hits her with her pathetic range) and if she gets caught in the stun away from friendly creeps, Gyro will shred her refraction and turn her into red mist.Gyro how?! You HAVE NO BASE DAMAGE to deny TA gold or experience. I don't understand how you cannot get that. What does a Gyrocopter have that makes him counter TA? His first skill? Grats, you just got rid of Refraction, now what?
Dust counters her because Meld is her only defensive skill - as mentioned several times, Refraction is not difficult to deal with if you have the right hero present. Without Refraction, TA is very squishy, and before she gets her Desolator, her damage isn't even that fantastic - at least, not the kind of "meld, hit, hit, dead," burst she's known for. It takes a LOT of farm to get the blink+desolator combo that TA requires to become so strong, and before she has those items, she's actually very squishy.That you say Dust counters her is just silly. Her power mid doesn't come from Meld. Meld is just used for damage anyways. You don't sit in Meld very often. Her strength mid comes from having the highest damage in the game at early levels to last hit with and her being immune to any nuke spells and at the same time harass you.
People pick what the pros pick because they're retarded and don't think for themselves. Dazzle is a very, very strong hero - invulnerability with 33% uptime and a greater than one-screen cast range combined with probably the most underrated ultimate in the game, and fantastic stats. Sniper is probably the most ridiculous ranged carry in the game, but isn't seen because he doesn't have an inherent escape mechanism - but watch what happens when Sniper has the attack speed to turn Headshot into ranged permastun and Assassinate means you can't get anywhere remotely near him with less than 75% HP.And I was referring to Puppey and syndereN on TalkDota where a person asks how to deal with TA mid. Both of them tried to think of ANY hero to counter her mid. Not only the ones in the current meta. Even Axe was brought up and Puppey said TA counters Axe. You say Axe counters TA. Damn. Guess I should listen to you. I find it funny that you discredit anything anyone says if they mention a professional name. I don't know waht bracket you play in but on my MMR (Very High), the hero pool isn't 100. People most often pick heroes that are used in current pro scene meta and the only way heroes like Sniper, Dazzle and such would be in my games would be because of Random.
Just because the pros do or don't do something doesn't mean it's holy writ. The pro scene trends for reasons I've never been able to understand - TA herself trended this way. She was used extensively right after she got ported, then she wasn't picked at all, and now she's popular again - and the only changes that have happened to her were some assorted bug fixes. Hell, her primary counter-pick hero got buffed to hell and she's still picked a lot. It doesn't make sense, but that's the pro scene for you. It happened all the time in SC2, too - players would pick up or abandon build orders without any kind of changes to the game, even though the old build orders never stopped being good.
You're hugely overestimating how good TA is because you aren't thinking. She really isn't as good as you think she is - until she gets both blink and desolator, she's actually kinda bad. Pros are just using her a lot because for whatever reason, pro teams seem to like letting her get those items at 20 minutes.
Well, like I said originally, TA was a joke pick in DotA1. She hasn't changed whatsoever. Just goes to show how people's attitudes change over time. AM was a joke pick, morph was a joke pick, all of these are current favorites. PA was a strong pick and is now considered a joke and she's been buffed repeatedly since then.
Sniper with his new buffs probably is the most ridiculous ranged carry in the game right now. He doesn't even need items, 800 range with even the tiniest bit of attack speed and he can headshot spam anything to death. You really can't understimate that ult, it hits for half of any ordinary heroes' health at all points in the game if Sniper stays leveled.
But that's not the best part, the best part is that one point in shrapnel counters refraction immediately. Though the headshot is still hilarious, I've 1v1ed wolf as sniper at 60 minutes when both of us were fed and it wasn't even close.
Also, Dazzle doesn't just counter TA by being able to walk away from her with shallow grave if she even gets the upper hand. She moves in to last hit that creep and he hits shadow wave, instantly takes away a full refraction and she won't even get the last hit because the creep got healed. Then if she doesn't run he can just poison touch and auto attack her to death. She's forced to Meld and waste all of her mana or just tank his harass forever. And that's the stress she goes through for ONE creep, let alone every single creep of every single wave. Let's not forget Dazzle's spells don't have cooldowns. Solo Dazzle can actually beat a huge range of heroes, he's a lot stronger than people give him credit for. Again, a hero who is ruined by the "GOTTA HARD SUPPORT BRO" mentality.
Lion is probably the easiest counter though. Impale/drain takes zero skill against an early game melee range hero like TA. By level 4 she won't have any mana and without mana she's about as strong as oom CM. I actually lost mid as SF to a Lion once and gained a brand new respect for the impale spam. Go in to last hit? Impaled/denied. Go in to harass Lion? Impaled/goodbye mana. Luckily SF just needs level 5 and he can clear entire waves with skillraze, but hey, TA can't do that.
Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-19 at 02:29 AM.
It doesn't matter if a game is longer than 8 minutes. TA's strength comes from getting a strong start due to winning her lane or break even at worst and from there how the rest of the game pans out depends on your team and how you act on other lanes. We were dicussing her strength mid and hwo you counter her. Anything past 8-10 minutes and she is already off the lane quite a lot most of the times.
You have to realize every time you cast Flak Cannon you push the lane (which is bad by the way) and Flak does almost no damage if you are with a creep wave and do you plan to chase TA to tower to hit her solo? And have fun trading hits with her when she has +40 damage at level 3 and Meld at level 4. Even if you get rid of Refraction with Flak you still can't hit her and no, you won't be able to hit Flak from far range on only TA without creep wave. You have to get closer, within TA's range to do that because she'll run uphill or to creep wave the moment you press that Flak. About missle, you just run up to the missle and refraction it. Or you run away from it. And yes, a good TA won't get caught without creep wave near him when he tanks the missle. Missle is annoying spell at best but doesn't pose any threat to a TA.
I am getting page 1 games. Don't assume that you have higher MMR than everyone else. I don't even play Dota 2 that much at the moment but I was queuing into H4nni and Alex- this week. And that is with most of my games being solo queues and many pros don't solo queue so facing them is less likely for me.
@Dazzle comment: Yeah, Dazzle has infinite mana to spam both the heal and the touch and still have Shallow Grave for when he is in trouble. The heal barely does damage. Dazzle's auto attacks does zero damage. And again, you push the lane every time you use the heal so you make it even easier to get those last hits you denied with heal in the first place.
@PizzaSHARK Anything you say has no credibility because you shown over and over again how you lack understanding of the game. TA not good before Desolator/Dagger? If she wasn't, how would she even farm those items against any strong mid hero?
Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-11-19 at 10:36 AM.
I'm enjoying this particular argument because pizza is actually defending Veno against TA mid, something he wouldn't initially buy from me.
I have to mention the whole SK vs TA thing boils down to basically one thing. Neither is a clear winner, but according to Lysah SK wins because a skilled player would dodge every instance of Psi Blades? You know it feels like a bit one sided to me that skill only works one way, that it's possible for a skilled SK to dodge everything but it's not possible for skilled TA to hit enough of them against a skilled SK?
And although Dazzle is alright, the one problem in the arguments here is that even with Rank 1 Psi Blades, Lanaya doesn't need to go close enough to creeps to get hit by Shadow Wave.
The way i see it, only reason TA is so strong atm because no one gets HP anymore, outside of her burst (which is really strong, but possible to manage) she's not that great (once refraction is down, she is as durable as wet paper bag), Huskar should beat her easily, spears counter refraction, he gets str items because of inner vitality, and if she tries to gank him after laning phase she'll just give him free relic and hyperstone, people have no idea how dangerous wounded huskar is. You want to counter her? Get some HP.
I'm not sure if you're mixing up flak cannon and rocket barrage because Gyro can easily just attack a creep with flak cannon and hit a hero 300 units behind it without even aiming. Point for point flak cannon beats refraction, again, a hero who can FORCE her to use it just to stay in lane will bleed her dry. You seem to be stuck on this notion that if she absorbs a few hits with refraction that's an automatic win for her. What you forget is that heroes like SK and Gyro don't even have to pay attention to her, just by existing they abuse her and force her to adapt to them instead of the other way around.
The main point of this discussion is that TA getting farm is not a won game. In a team fight she is about as pathetic as it gets, once she blinks in you pop dust and focus her and she will be sinking into the ground momentarily. Beating her is not about stopping her from farming - items don't make her scary. Beating her is about not losing mid, keep in mind this is not the same concept as winning mid. Beating her is about pushing her into a defensive position so you can predict her ganks and counter them. Without an early game lead she is on the same level as, say, Slark.
At the end of the day, most people will realize what people realized in DotA1 - TA is a joke hero if you stop thinking she's amazing and stop trying to run away from her.
Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-19 at 11:27 AM.