Support Sven is still extremely useful - brings probably the best skillbolt format stun in the game (at least tied with CK's Chaos Bolt, anyway) and his buff is seriously underappreciated. It gives 16 bonus armor to heroes AND creeps, PLUS a huge move speed boost (12%!) with a little under 50% uptime when it's maxed. That translates into almost doubling your creeps' HP versus enemy creeps and towers and it's a straight up counter to TA's armor pierce, Slardar's ultimate, Medallion of Courage, and Desolator.
For the earlier phases of the midgame, his right click damage is still very relevant even without damage items due to his ulti and decent STR, and his high AGI gain (for a STR hero) makes him a little less reliant on IAS and armor than other STR heroes.
I'd counter by saying that Sven is a terrible pick as a pure carry. There are much better choices for a hero that wants to right-click things to death. Sven has more of an "AOE carry" niche, a lot like Pirate. If I just wanted a hero that could show up and right-click heroes to death in a few hits, one by one, there are a lot of better choices - hell, if you roll a 20 instead of a 10, PA's probably the best hero in the game at doing that and she's damned near impossible to peel off her target once she has her BKB.
and how you gonna lvlup warcry, stun and stats to actually use this spells ?
soul ring is not enough (mana for 1 bolt on 30s cd) and you need to buy wards/supportstuff anyway
on paper he looks great as you said
in practice all he can do is stun once for 100-175dmg maybe use lowlvl warcry (MS is still nice tho) and thats all
sven sucks as 5
as 4 mayybe if your team is already wining
buriza/manta/treads/bfly/MKB/desolator(yes, desolator) fletcher #1 DPS in an 8 second window. Kill tier 3 towers with backdoor protection up in 5 seconds.
Edict most likely has anyone beat early to mid game unless someone gets really fed. Still, that requires there to be nothing defending the tower, where a hero like Clinkz with his ult up can still unload a lot of damage even in the middle of an enemy team.
Honestly, Krobe is garbage until 11. Her ultimate doesn't have enough spirits to be worth anything until then.
Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-21 at 11:36 AM.
Clinkz would have abouts 60 base damage, 50 from his orb and about 55 from ulti (can he eat large centaur that early on or is it just eidolons that have a level req?) and assuming a 1 second attack time (which looks too long to me, I'll test it once I get home) he's gonna do 1650 damage in the duration of rank 4 Strafe.
Arguably, his damage is going to be lower because larger values get reduced more by armor but he'd also do damage outside of his spell cooldowns.
Yes, this does require that he be what, level...10 or so? Not too tall of an order for the 20-25 minute mark
Sven is not a support because without items, he is not a significant threat.
Sven provides (according to dota2wiki)
- 2 second aoe stun and 325 damage
- %12 movement speed and 16 armor for 8 seconds.
Other than these buffs and utility, support Sven brings nothing to game which makes him useless as a support. No1 is going to let a Sven without key items to approach and hit more than one swing, if not no swings at all. His biggest weakness is vulnerability to CC. Actually he is not more vulnerable than most heroes in game but he needs not to be cced in order to output some damage. If you want AoE stun, the king is Tide Hunter. Movement Speed and Armor buffs are good but its just a slight advantage(or not advantage at all depending on enemy team composition).
You are overestimating situationally useful buffs so hard and I don't know why. Also that AoE stun is not guaranteed and can easily be avoided unlike TH.
The fact that you can ignore Dazzle and just kill his allies but you can't ignore Sven or he will kill your allies can't be ignored.
Why the hell would you level stats on Sven? He doesn't need them. The only reason you get stats on Leoric is because crit is garbage without damage and his aura can't be turned off, otherwise you'd always do stun/aura. Bracers and branches provide you with all the base mana you need and Soul Ring guarantees you a free stun every 30 sec, plus gives you HP/mana regen for very little cost. You might take stats instead of cleave afterwards, but I don't think that'd be as good as just having the ability to carve up creep waves with a few swings.
Support Sven is more like an Omniknight or a Dazzle - he can't be played as a hard/5 support, he needs at least a little bit of farm and he needs XP.
The main difficulty with support Sven is that he needs at least a little farm and a lot of XP, which makes him awkward to fit into the current style of play at the pro level - same thing with Dazzle, Omni, etc. It doesn't mean that it's bad, just that it doesn't fit right now.
everything else is optional, but damage-wise , desolator(due to armor debuff applying BEFORE Vendetta connects) or BF, due to Vendetta also splashingm are good ones.
Tho Nyx (Nyx nyx nyx haha nyx nyx ) is almost exclusively a ganker-caster and doesnt actually need any damage-dealing items.
Some support heroes require items and/or XP to perform well. Omniknight and Dazzle are examples - would you also say they aren't supports? Sven's in the same boat when he plays as a support - he still needs some gold and some XP or he's going to be useless. The easiest means of getting both is with a trilane, since his stun is OP as shit.
---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 08:42 AM ----------
You also keep saying "skillbolt" without stopping to consider that there might be other aspects to skill than targeting skillshots. In the case of Stormbolt you'll have to consider when to use it because it has 14 second cooldown, whether or not your enemy can disjoint it or run too far before it connects or if you can hit multiple heroes despite of the slow travel time.
You can't really get away with doing that anymore because of the new, higher mana costs. If you Waveform in and get in over your head, there's a very good chance you'll run out of mana and die before Waveform comes off cooldown or your teammates finish running over to bail you out.
Managing cooldowns applies to every hero, even heroes with spells on short cooldowns. The travel time isn't as big an issue because Sven's stun can't be disjointed or dodged - once it's in the air, it will hit you. It's an issue when you're trying to land a multistun, but that's what Force Staff/Blink Dagger are for - good luck splitting when it's being cast from 200 range away.You also keep saying "skillbolt" without stopping to consider that there might be other aspects to skill than targeting skillshots. In the case of Stormbolt you'll have to consider when to use it because it has 14 second cooldown, whether or not your enemy can disjoint it or run too far before it connects or if you can hit multiple heroes despite of the slow travel time.
---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 08:48 AM ----------
@pizza you still keep saying things like "Morph was clearly overpowered" yet you've never even remotely convinced me, and repeating it won't help. Or exaggerating or making up facts. A long time ago a very good player told me that "a Morphling who wastes Waveform is dead" (barring Replicate) and as far as I've observed, it's usually been true. You can keep making up sentences like "you just did whatever you wanted and if ended up being a mistake, np morph str" that make you seem knowledgeable while it's fairly obvious you aren't, as always you're just acting like all the observable evidence supports your argument.
I thought this was almost like a universal fact.
Edit: And TA is almost as bad in the way that really bad players can even melt faces with her, though I will refrain from calling her OP. Just too easy to play for the results you get.
Last edited by MasterOfInvocation; 2012-11-21 at 09:09 PM.
I could keep giving strong arguments but you will keep fail to understand anyway.
You are a joke, a true internet joke. PizzaJoke?
When you think something is OP you throw mud to IceFrog and even dare to say game design is easy. Have you ever read about game theory? Designed a game? NO.
When you got raped hard in your lame MMR, you throw the bullshit of THAT SPELL or HERO IS OP AS FUCK.
When you don't like something in competitive scene you throw mud to pros and their play style.
You keep repeating fucking dota2wiki with walls of texts and try to be cool while repeating same drill and shits we already now for like fucking 6 years?
Claiming Sven's stun is OP is not even funny.
You need to make sense not me.
ps: somehow this guy is always right and rest is always wrong.
Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-11-21 at 10:23 PM.