1. #3601
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    You're thinking of Rhasta/Shadow Shaman

    I'd say Leshrac probably has the best tower-pushing power at any level. Diabolic Edict causes enormous damage in a short amount of time if you can keep it from wasting hits on creeps.
    Lesh is far from as good as Clinkz. Even a naked Clinkz is gonna do more damage faster than Lesh will besides maybe really early into the game when Clinkz doesn't have both fire arrows and strafe.

  2. #3602
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finear View Post
    sven as support is horrible pick him as carry or just dont
    Great reinforcement for your position there.

    Support Sven is still extremely useful - brings probably the best skillbolt format stun in the game (at least tied with CK's Chaos Bolt, anyway) and his buff is seriously underappreciated. It gives 16 bonus armor to heroes AND creeps, PLUS a huge move speed boost (12%!) with a little under 50% uptime when it's maxed. That translates into almost doubling your creeps' HP versus enemy creeps and towers and it's a straight up counter to TA's armor pierce, Slardar's ultimate, Medallion of Courage, and Desolator.

    For the earlier phases of the midgame, his right click damage is still very relevant even without damage items due to his ulti and decent STR, and his high AGI gain (for a STR hero) makes him a little less reliant on IAS and armor than other STR heroes.

    I'd counter by saying that Sven is a terrible pick as a pure carry. There are much better choices for a hero that wants to right-click things to death. Sven has more of an "AOE carry" niche, a lot like Pirate. If I just wanted a hero that could show up and right-click heroes to death in a few hits, one by one, there are a lot of better choices - hell, if you roll a 20 instead of a 10, PA's probably the best hero in the game at doing that and she's damned near impossible to peel off her target once she has her BKB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lycoris View Post
    Lesh is far from as good as Clinkz. Even a naked Clinkz is gonna do more damage faster than Lesh will besides maybe really early into the game when Clinkz doesn't have both fire arrows and strafe.
    He's talking about ~level 6. Clinkz is by far the best tower killer once he has some items (Clinkz with just orchid and MKB is fucking comical), but for pushing/taking towers before the 20-25 minute mark, I don't think it gets better than Leshrac. Edict just does so much damage if you can give him a few seconds of free time to use it on a tower.
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  3. #3603
    and how you gonna lvlup warcry, stun and stats to actually use this spells ?
    soul ring is not enough (mana for 1 bolt on 30s cd) and you need to buy wards/supportstuff anyway
    on paper he looks great as you said
    in practice all he can do is stun once for 100-175dmg maybe use lowlvl warcry (MS is still nice tho) and thats all

    sven sucks as 5
    as 4 mayybe if your team is already wining
    Last edited by Finear; 2012-11-21 at 11:28 AM.

  4. #3604
    buriza/manta/treads/bfly/MKB/desolator(yes, desolator) fletcher #1 DPS in an 8 second window. Kill tier 3 towers with backdoor protection up in 5 seconds.

    Edict most likely has anyone beat early to mid game unless someone gets really fed. Still, that requires there to be nothing defending the tower, where a hero like Clinkz with his ult up can still unload a lot of damage even in the middle of an enemy team.

    Honestly, Krobe is garbage until 11. Her ultimate doesn't have enough spirits to be worth anything until then.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-21 at 11:36 AM.
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  5. #3605
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    He's talking about ~level 6. Clinkz is by far the best tower killer once he has some items (Clinkz with just orchid and MKB is fucking comical), but for pushing/taking towers before the 20-25 minute mark, I don't think it gets better than Leshrac. Edict just does so much damage if you can give him a few seconds of free time to use it on a tower.
    Lesh does about 1600 damage at max rank Edict.

    Clinkz would have abouts 60 base damage, 50 from his orb and about 55 from ulti (can he eat large centaur that early on or is it just eidolons that have a level req?) and assuming a 1 second attack time (which looks too long to me, I'll test it once I get home) he's gonna do 1650 damage in the duration of rank 4 Strafe.
    Arguably, his damage is going to be lower because larger values get reduced more by armor but he'd also do damage outside of his spell cooldowns.

    Yes, this does require that he be what, level...10 or so? Not too tall of an order for the 20-25 minute mark
    Last edited by Zefie; 2012-11-21 at 11:48 AM.

  6. #3606
    Sven is not a support because without items, he is not a significant threat.

    Sven provides (according to dota2wiki)
    - 2 second aoe stun and 325 damage
    - %12 movement speed and 16 armor for 8 seconds.

    Other than these buffs and utility, support Sven brings nothing to game which makes him useless as a support. No1 is going to let a Sven without key items to approach and hit more than one swing, if not no swings at all. His biggest weakness is vulnerability to CC. Actually he is not more vulnerable than most heroes in game but he needs not to be cced in order to output some damage. If you want AoE stun, the king is Tide Hunter. Movement Speed and Armor buffs are good but its just a slight advantage(or not advantage at all depending on enemy team composition).

    @Pizza
    You are overestimating situationally useful buffs so hard and I don't know why. Also that AoE stun is not guaranteed and can easily be avoided unlike TH.

  7. #3607
    The fact that you can ignore Dazzle and just kill his allies but you can't ignore Sven or he will kill your allies can't be ignored.
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  8. #3608
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    The fact that you can ignore Dazzle and just kill his allies but you can't ignore Sven or he will kill your allies can't be ignored.
    A support Sven can easily be nuked to death. A little harder than dazzle maybe but not such great difference. He's like shadow shaman, you can't ignore but brings way way less benefit compared to shaman as a support.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-11-21 at 12:29 PM.

  9. #3609
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finear View Post
    and how you gonna lvlup warcry, stun and stats to actually use this spells ?
    soul ring is not enough (mana for 1 bolt on 30s cd) and you need to buy wards/supportstuff anyway
    on paper he looks great as you said
    in practice all he can do is stun once for 100-175dmg maybe use lowlvl warcry (MS is still nice tho) and thats all

    sven sucks as 5
    as 4 mayybe if your team is already wining
    "Support," doesn't mean "takes no farm," it means "this guy will be getting support items instead of carry items," and it's rare to have only one support on a team.

    Why the hell would you level stats on Sven? He doesn't need them. The only reason you get stats on Leoric is because crit is garbage without damage and his aura can't be turned off, otherwise you'd always do stun/aura. Bracers and branches provide you with all the base mana you need and Soul Ring guarantees you a free stun every 30 sec, plus gives you HP/mana regen for very little cost. You might take stats instead of cleave afterwards, but I don't think that'd be as good as just having the ability to carve up creep waves with a few swings.

    Support Sven is more like an Omniknight or a Dazzle - he can't be played as a hard/5 support, he needs at least a little bit of farm and he needs XP.
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  10. #3610
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    "Support," doesn't mean "takes no farm," it means "this guy will be getting support items instead of carry items," and it's rare to have only one support on a team.
    thanks, didnt know that


    Why the hell would you level stats on Sven? He doesn't need them
    *mana*

  11. #3611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    A support Sven can easily be nuked to death. A little harder than dazzle maybe but not such great difference. He's like shadow shaman, you can't ignore but brings way way less benefit compared to shaman as a support.
    ANY hero can be easily nuked to death unless they have a crapton of MR like Anti-Mage or Viper. Carry Sven doesn't fucking build survivability items, he builds for damage - BKB and the obligatory Bracer are probably all he's gonna have for the entire game unless it goes longer than 30-35 minutes, maybe a Lothars if he's playing a Pirate-like build or a MoM/HotD if he's gonna go for a more "right-click until it's dead and move on to next target," build. Maybe the lifesteal will help him survive but it's rare to see pros building for lifesteal anyway because it's so unreliable outside of BKB/Repel as a means of keeping yourself alive.

    The main difficulty with support Sven is that he needs at least a little farm and a lot of XP, which makes him awkward to fit into the current style of play at the pro level - same thing with Dazzle, Omni, etc. It doesn't mean that it's bad, just that it doesn't fit right now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
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  12. #3612
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    ANY hero can be easily nuked to death unless they have a crapton of MR like Anti-Mage or Viper.
    That was an answer to Lysah out of current discussions context. I was trying to say the existence if Sven is not a big deal

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Carry Sven doesn't fucking build survivability items, he builds for damage - BKB and the obligatory Bracer are probably all he's gonna have for the entire game unless it goes longer than 30-35 minutes, maybe a Lothars if he's playing a Pirate-like build or a MoM/HotD if he's gonna go for a more "right-click until it's dead and move on to next target," build. Maybe the lifesteal will help him survive but it's rare to see pros building for lifesteal anyway because it's so unreliable outside of BKB/Repel as a means of keeping yourself alive.
    Who said he needs defensive items to be carry? You are struggling to make an argument but failing hard. Deal with it, he's a bad support.

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    The main difficulty with support Sven is that he needs at least a little farm and a lot of XP, which makes him awkward to fit into the current style of play at the pro level - same thing with Dazzle, Omni, etc. It doesn't mean that it's bad, just that it doesn't fit right now.
    You just disproved yourself about support Sven.

  13. #3613
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    He is definitely good, but its not like he is unbeatable. I liked most the game (mtw against someone?) with Sven/Magnus combo, those cleaves jesus... but there just as many games where he was build as support or just didnt make big enough impact even with hugeass farm. The "easiest" counter seemed to me like bkb on bane and ulti sven during his bkb.

    Last couple of days, i was trying Nyx and I havent had so much fun in dota... like ever. The ganking solo kills are definitely part of that, but well timed carapace is just hillarious since alot of people dont unfortunately stop animations on their spells. Carapace on Huskars Life break or on Linas ulti... hillarious. But i honestly have no clue how to build him, i just go arcane boots/dagon5 and at that point game is usually already over and if not, ill just get some neutral items like drums or linkens, but might try veil of discord depending on setup. Definitely fun hero, even in games I loose
    I'd suggest you go arcaneboots->(urn of shadows)->dagon1->ghostscepter->ethereal blade.
    everything else is optional, but damage-wise , desolator(due to armor debuff applying BEFORE Vendetta connects) or BF, due to Vendetta also splashingm are good ones.
    Tho Nyx (Nyx nyx nyx haha nyx nyx ) is almost exclusively a ganker-caster and doesnt actually need any damage-dealing items.

  14. #3614
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    You just disproved yourself about support Sven.
    wut? Make sense, please. I know it ain't your strong suit, but please try.

    Some support heroes require items and/or XP to perform well. Omniknight and Dazzle are examples - would you also say they aren't supports? Sven's in the same boat when he plays as a support - he still needs some gold and some XP or he's going to be useless. The easiest means of getting both is with a trilane, since his stun is OP as shit.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 08:42 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Finear View Post
    *mana*
    He gets plenty of mana from stat items. Just because you don't know how to play Sven doesn't mean you should run around telling people that's how he's supposed to be played.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  15. #3615
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Morphling was OP as hell before those nerfs. He was simply too hard to kill. That's why he was popular - he was the only hard carry that was difficult to kill right from the beginning of the game, yet was still pretty strong late game. Cheap, easy strength morphing was entirely too forgiving of sloppy play.
    You keep saying "sloppy play" but there isn't anything remotely sloppy about knowing the strengths of your hero and playing by them. And Morphling wasn't particularly hard to kill because of strength morph, Replicate is the only thing that would consistently keep him alive.

    You also keep saying "skillbolt" without stopping to consider that there might be other aspects to skill than targeting skillshots. In the case of Stormbolt you'll have to consider when to use it because it has 14 second cooldown, whether or not your enemy can disjoint it or run too far before it connects or if you can hit multiple heroes despite of the slow travel time.



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  16. #3616
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    You also keep saying "skillbolt" without stopping to consider that there might be other aspects to skill than targeting skillshots. In the case of Stormbolt you'll have to consider when to use it because it has 14 second cooldown, whether or not your enemy can disjoint it or run too far before it connects or if you can hit multiple heroes despite of the slow travel time.
    Isn't Storm Bolt one of the very few stuns you can't disjoint though?

  17. #3617
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    You keep saying "sloppy play" but there isn't anything remotely sloppy about knowing the strengths of your hero and playing by them. And Morphling wasn't particularly hard to kill because of strength morph, Replicate is the only thing that would consistently keep him alive.
    And both abilities at least forgave sloppy play if not encourage it. Morphling didn't need fast reaction times or to be able to gauge whether or not he could afford to use Waveform aggressively - you just did whatever you wanted and if ended up being a mistake, np morph str (or replicate out at higher levels.) You could view it as playing to a hero's strengths, but when that hero is clearly overpowered it's more like "abusing" than anything else.

    You can't really get away with doing that anymore because of the new, higher mana costs. If you Waveform in and get in over your head, there's a very good chance you'll run out of mana and die before Waveform comes off cooldown or your teammates finish running over to bail you out.

    You also keep saying "skillbolt" without stopping to consider that there might be other aspects to skill than targeting skillshots. In the case of Stormbolt you'll have to consider when to use it because it has 14 second cooldown, whether or not your enemy can disjoint it or run too far before it connects or if you can hit multiple heroes despite of the slow travel time.
    Managing cooldowns applies to every hero, even heroes with spells on short cooldowns. The travel time isn't as big an issue because Sven's stun can't be disjointed or dodged - once it's in the air, it will hit you. It's an issue when you're trying to land a multistun, but that's what Force Staff/Blink Dagger are for - good luck splitting when it's being cast from 200 range away.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-21 at 08:48 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lycoris View Post
    Isn't Storm Bolt one of the very few stuns you can't disjoint though?
    Yeah. He even has a few quips when he stuns a hero that tried to blink away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
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  18. #3618
    Quote Originally Posted by Lycoris View Post
    Isn't Storm Bolt one of the very few stuns you can't disjoint though?
    You're right, disjoint was probably a wrong word to use, but there's still plenty of abilities that will let you dodge it, and any stealth ability from Meld to Sandstorm will also dodge it when there no true sight, and on top of that toggling BKB or any other immunity while Stormbolt is in the air is only too easy. But you're right, even though Blinks and Leaps don't disjoint it, they often get you to a safe position anyway which will, to some extent, waste the stun.

    @pizza you still keep saying things like "Morph was clearly overpowered" yet you've never even remotely convinced me, and repeating it won't help. Or exaggerating or making up facts. A long time ago a very good player told me that "a Morphling who wastes Waveform is dead" (barring Replicate) and as far as I've observed, it's usually been true. You can keep making up sentences like "you just did whatever you wanted and if ended up being a mistake, np morph str" that make you seem knowledgeable while it's fairly obvious you aren't, as always you're just acting like all the observable evidence supports your argument.



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  19. #3619
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    @pizza you still keep saying things like "Morph was clearly overpowered" yet you've never even remotely convinced me, and repeating it won't help. Or exaggerating or making up facts. A long time ago a very good player told me that "a Morphling who wastes Waveform is dead" (barring Replicate) and as far as I've observed, it's usually been true. You can keep making up sentences like "you just did whatever you wanted and if ended up being a mistake, np morph str" that make you seem knowledgeable while it's fairly obvious you aren't, as always you're just acting like all the observable evidence supports your argument.
    I rarely agree with Pizza, especially with his last statements about icefrog and such .. But sorry, morph was OP.

    I thought this was almost like a universal fact.

    Edit: And TA is almost as bad in the way that really bad players can even melt faces with her, though I will refrain from calling her OP. Just too easy to play for the results you get.
    Last edited by MasterOfInvocation; 2012-11-21 at 09:09 PM.

  20. #3620
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    wut? Make sense, please. I know it ain't your strong suit, but please try.

    Some support heroes require items and/or XP to perform well. Omniknight and Dazzle are examples - would you also say they aren't supports? Sven's in the same boat when he plays as a support - he still needs some gold and some XP or he's going to be useless. The easiest means of getting both is with a trilane, since his stun is OP as shit.[COLOR="red"]

    I could keep giving strong arguments but you will keep fail to understand anyway.

    You are a joke, a true internet joke. PizzaJoke?
    When you think something is OP you throw mud to IceFrog and even dare to say game design is easy. Have you ever read about game theory? Designed a game? NO.
    When you got raped hard in your lame MMR, you throw the bullshit of THAT SPELL or HERO IS OP AS FUCK.
    When you don't like something in competitive scene you throw mud to pros and their play style.
    You keep repeating fucking dota2wiki with walls of texts and try to be cool while repeating same drill and shits we already now for like fucking 6 years?

    Claiming Sven's stun is OP is not even funny.

    You need to make sense not me.

    ps: somehow this guy is always right and rest is always wrong.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-11-21 at 10:23 PM.

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