[Megathread] DotA 2

[Kuntantee]

I simply assumed, all the feedback I've heard from him is "One of the best solo lanes in the game".

Actually, solo lane should go to heroes that need early xp/item in order to be effective such as qop or batrider(even shadow shaman... early blink does wonders). He's not a solo laner because his toolkit built around team-play. Without another ally hero close, he's not even a threat. He can't really deny opponents farm or somehow suppress. If anything he will be suppressed because other than disruption he has nothing to harass given the fact that poison can be avoided easily. Lich would be better solo laner than shadow demon because at least he will be denying creeps more.

[Finear]

I simply assumed, all the feedback I've heard from him is "One of the best solo lanes in the game".

well because he is really strong mid but he wont get a lot from lvls and items so its better to put there someone who e.g. needs quick blink

[Sackman]

Actually, solo lane should go to heroes that need early xp/item in order to be effective such as qop or batrider(even shadow shaman... early blink does wonders). He's not a solo laner because his toolkit built around team-play. Without another ally hero close, he's not even a threat. He can't really deny opponents farm or somehow suppress. If anything he will be suppressed because other than disruption he has nothing to harass given the fact that poison can be avoided easily. Lich would be better solo laner than shadow demon because at least he will be denying creeps more.

He's pretty good anti carry.

[Finear]

He's pretty good anti carry.

This.
distrupt AM and mana burn his allies ;d

also hes very good anti-initiator

[Kuntantee]

He's pretty good anti carry.

I am not sure why you quoted me on this.

[Longview]

Are you sure? I swear it was around 200 pages that LoL was given its own subforum. Though, LoL itself is most likely a bit easier to pick up and play, resulting in an easier rise in fanbase, that doesn't mean DotA couldn't prosper here.

I asked Sunshine the administrator and here's the outcome:
[00:06] <longview> so dota2 subforum is a maybe
[00:06] <longview> ??
[00:07] <Sunshine> yeah maybe
[00:07] <Sunshine> depends on how much discussion

I simply assumed, all the feedback I've heard from him is "One of the best solo lanes in the game".

Certainly an undervalued solo mid hero. I guess that works a bit like carry Vengeful Spirit, people frown upon it because it's not the common or conventional thing. "Oh, VS? Sweet, we've a babysitter and lotsa wards!" when in fact she is an incredibly potential mid-game carry. I've ran SD solo mid and ended up really fed, taking out the opposing carries 1v1. If you go Phase -> Drums -> Force Staff with a bottle first (assuming mid and having the gold), you can transition well into a really supportive role lategame after ravaging the midgame. Force Staff could be exchanged for Euls/Mek/Ghost Scepter/Blink/Sheep depending on your matchup and your level of farm (I've also seen things like Linken's, Manta, Necronomicon, Orchid, Shiva's, Shadow Blade, etc. Adjust as necessary). Draskyl was probably the first person I saw run SD solo mid, but he had 20-something kills before the endgame carries started to really hit. By then they had already won the game.

[Finear]

Draskyl was probably the first person I saw run SD solo mid.

he was at mid often after release (~3 years ago iirc)
poison is comparable to napalm just less annoying

---------- Post added 2012-12-13 at 12:37 AM ----------

Added Timbersaw!

well thats a surprise

no medusa but he is definitely fun hero

[Hermanni]

he was at mid often after release (~3 years ago iirc)

You're right, he was usually played as solo in DotA. I don't know why it is that every time people discuss mid lane in here it's always more or less facepalm material. The support SD caught a lot of wind lately, and he is a great support, but he is devastating in mid in most match-ups and becomes a great ganker when he leaves lane. I played a lot of SD when he came out (never played it in DotA), usually went mid and won it pretty much every time, got a solo kill when I was level 5 or 6 3/4 times.

And if they mutilate Medusa beyond recognition in 6.77 and THEN release her I'm just going to brood through the holidays.

[Kuntantee]

You're right, he was usually played as solo in DotA. I don't know why it is that every time people discuss mid lane in here it's always more or less facepalm material. The support SD caught a lot of wind lately, and he is a great support, but he is devastating in mid in most match-ups and becomes a great ganker when he leaves lane. I played a lot of SD when he came out (never played it in DotA), usually went mid and won it pretty much every time, got a solo kill when I was level 5 or 6 3/4 times.

And if they mutilate Medusa beyond recognition in 6.77 and THEN release her I'm just going to brood through the holidays.

Can you explain how did you manage to solo kill someone in lvl5 in middle(safest lane) with shadow demon? Because I am having hard times to believe your opponent was a good one.

Also do you got some sort of argument-o-meter pluged-in to you? Because every one in here is basically doing same thing; saying this hero is better on bla bla and providing arguments. You seem to be only one who complaining about the quality of arguments. I am guessing you are measuring it. Not that I don't find every argument okay, but when I don't, I provide more counter arguments instead of complaining about it every two pages.

Anyway, there are way better alternatives when it comes to ganking, burst damage or lane control compared to SD. He's an excellent support but not a solo laner imo.

[Longview]

Also do you got some sort of argument-o-meter pluged-in to you? Because every one in here is basically doing same thing; saying this hero is better on bla bla and providing arguments. You seem to only one who complaining about the quality of arguments. I am guessing you are measuring it. Not that I don't find every argument okay, but when I do, I provide more counter arguments instead of complaining about every two mins.

Allow me to step in here and just remind you that the arguments you have provided in the last week or so have yet to be backed up by any real statistic. Just because you have an argument does not mean that it is even remotely accurate. Arguments regarding what heroes are over powered/too strong only backed up with hyperbole and anecdotal evidence mean (contrary to popular belief) fuck all.

Furthermore, not complaining does not make you (or anyone else) any more rational or constructive.

Straight up: You think something is too strong? Too weak? Too one-sided? Broken beyond repair? State this. Back this up with statistics supporting the claim you just made. Bam, rational argument. Statistics are super easy to fetch, the Dota 2 API is incredible and there are multiple parsers for both professional games and public games.

My sincere apologies if you did in fact provide facts in any of your previous arguments, it may very well be a case of selective memory.

[Kapaya]

Everyone's talking about the MMR system and how apparently almost all of you are playing on high. My question is, how exactly do you know what your MMR is?

Also, just me who thinks the hero pool is a bit broken atm? Meepo followed by Centaur and Magnus, countered hard already only to have Slark pop up?... It's like they are trying to make pub games a living hell.

Think it's time for either TC, Abbadon or Pit Lord to show up!

[Longview]

Everyone's talking about the MMR system and how apparently almost all of you are playing on high. My question is, how exactly do you know what your MMR is?

Watch tab -> filter games by nickname -> change replay ranking filters

This was stated to be independent of MMR by Valve:

Common misconception, the three tiers of rating are not related to match making rating. Rather, they're there to help distinguish "good" games with higher than average G/XPM and whatever else Valve chose - with the intent to help players find good replays. (Source)

The only thing we do know about the match making system is that it's a modified version of TrueSkill, which is more accurate than ELO in a multiplayer scenario. ELO works better for single player scenarios such as chess. Read more about TrueSkill here.

We also know that match making rating is not based on wins or losses, and we know that there are a lot of variables in action. What variables this might or might not be is pure speculation unless you are an employee of Valve. If you ever visit Valve HQ, they may tell you what percentile you're in - they told TobiWan that SingSing was the highest ranked player when he visited. That was a long time ago though.

[Hermanni]

Can you explain how did you manage to solo kill someone in lvl5 in middle(safest lane) with shadow demon? Because I am having hard times to believe your opponent was a good one.

I don't disagree that my opponents weren't necessarily very good, considering it was in the days and weeks after SD was out and not everyone was fully familiar with him.

Anyway, the level 5 kill was always more or less like this. Skill 1-1-3. Harass enemy a bit when possible. Land a Shadow Poison, enemy probably won't back out. If they do, well, you just won the lane. Land another Poison and Disrupt instantly after it. Run to enemy high ground or as close as you can get, land Soul Catcher and 3rd Poison right when its off CD right when Disruption ends. Rightclick with everything and attempt to land a 4th poison.

Assuming you landed Soul Catcher, rank 3 Shadow Poison with 3 hits alone did 50+50+60+240 = 400 magic damage. If you landed 4th Poison, it's a total of 620 damage. On top of this you should be able to get numerous rightclicks in if you positioned correctly.

Sure, it won't necessarily work if the enemy has enough health and is at full health or full Magic Stick, or against heroes like QoP who can escape it easily, but it's still a move that doesn't even involve too much commitment and puts a lot of pressure (and damage) to the enemy. And by the time you're level 6, you probably won't even need that one pre-stack of Shadow Poison for a kill.

Also do you got some sort of argument-o-meter pluged-in to you? Because every one in here is basically doing same thing; saying this hero is better on bla bla and providing arguments. You seem to be only one who complaining about the quality of arguments. I am guessing you are measuring it. Not that I don't find every argument okay, but when I don't, I provide more counter arguments instead of complaining about it every two pages.

I wasn't criticizing any arguments, it just seems that often people say things like "this hero isn't good mid" or that "this hero in unbeatable in mid" which seem to completely contradict my understanding of the game and often leave me wondering if those people actually play mid very often, but I don't usually respond to them.

Anyway, there are way better alternatives when it comes to ganking, burst damage or lane control compared to SD. He's an excellent support but not a solo laner imo.

Now I'm about this close to doing some argument criticism. But after what I said initially I don't think that's fair.

---------- Post added 2012-12-13 at 02:06 AM ----------

We also know that match making rating is not based on wins or losses, and we know that there are a lot of variables in action.

I'm still not too convinced that is true and I don't think your source covers it.

[PizzaSHARK]

You're right, he was usually played as solo in DotA. I don't know why it is that every time people discuss mid lane in here it's always more or less facepalm material. The support SD caught a lot of wind lately, and he is a great support, but he is devastating in mid in most match-ups and becomes a great ganker when he leaves lane. I played a lot of SD when he came out (never played it in DotA), usually went mid and won it pretty much every time, got a solo kill when I was level 5 or 6 3/4 times.

And if they mutilate Medusa beyond recognition in 6.77 and THEN release her I'm just going to brood through the holidays.

SD basically gets free kills once he hits 6... stack poison a couple times, disrupt them, stack poison again, hit them with purge as they come out of disruption, poison one more time when they can't avoid it, and then pop poison right as purge pops and they just splatter all over the trees.

It's actually a lot like a level 6 viper... if you get in range of his ulti, you die.

[Finear]

Anyway, there are way better alternatives when it comes to ganking, burst damage or lane control compared to SD. He's an excellent support but not a solo laner imo.

he is bad mid in the sense of effective usage of xp/gold he gains
sure you can buy quick force staff,mek or something but so does everyone else
hes not inovker with huge need for lvls or bat farming for game breaking blink

but i dare you to face decent SD on mid
poison+soul catcher will make your laning hard and he can force you to atleast bottle crow long before lvl6

[PizzaSHARK]

he is bad mid in the sense of effective usage of xp/gold he gains
sure you can buy quick force staff,mek or something but so does everyone else
hes not inovker with huge need for lvls or bat farming for game breaking blink

but i dare you to face decent SD on mid
poison+soul catcher will make your laning hard and he can force you to atleast bottle crow long before lvl6

Yeah. It seems like you'd solo mid SD only to dick with the enemy mid, not really to get SD any farm or XP since he's pretty much self-reliant and doesn't need much of either.

Honestly, he's just such a good overall hero with good stats, good base damage, a fantastic animation, and really useful spells. Wish we saw more of him in the current meta, those clutch disruptions never get old.

[Kapaya]

I am not sure if they are serious with this hero or not. I quit normal DotA before this guy was released, but he seems extreamly powerfull?

[Lysah]

I'm still not too convinced that is true and I don't think your source covers it.

I agree with it. My winrate has gotten damn close to negative and I still remain in page 1 games every day. The system actually seems to have a way to measure how much of a loss is my fault, since I can go on a 30 loss streak playing with new friends and not see any noticeable change in MMR. This is, of course, keeping the assumption that games are ordered relatively by total MMR in the view tab...

I know people with anywhere from 60-80% wins who are far below me in MMR, even people with this level of winrate and 1000 games played.

[PizzaSHARK]

I agree with it. My winrate has gotten damn close to negative and I still remain in page 1 games every day. The system actually seems to have a way to measure how much of a loss is my fault, since I can go on a 30 loss streak playing with new friends and not see any noticeable change in MMR. This is, of course, keeping the assumption that games are ordered relatively by total MMR in the view tab...

I know people with anywhere from 60-80% wins who are far below me in MMR, even people with this level of winrate and 1000 games played.

That's... depressing.

[Underskilled]

I am not sure if they are serious with this hero or not. I quit normal DotA before this guy was released, but he seems extreamly powerfull?

I sort of recall seeing him, never played him, though. I wouldn't be too afraid of all that pure damage, keep in mind he only has one real nuke if you aren't around trees, and it doesn't sound too powerful without trees, either. The radius on his ult looks pretty small too, and adding in the fact he can't auto-attack during it, and offensively, he doesn't sound very frightening. That passive sounds pretty amazing though, 16 armour is quite a bit, even if he needs to take 16 hits for it.

Just my initial thoughts though, would love to hear a bit more about him from someone more experienced with him.