1. #4801
    When she kills people in 3 hits that take a little over a second to fire, bringing silence is already too much. If you really think that winning against her is so easy as stacking your ENTIRE TEAM to harass her, why do you think that a drow picker forcing you to play, as a team, in a certain way is not broken? Does any other hero do that? Furthermore, the drow picker's team will expect you to constantly hound her, and they can easily play accordingly and set up counter ganks on you all day.

    Forcing people to play a certain way just to remain in the game is something I consider broken. When your enemy is predictable they've already lost.

    I guess next we can argue that SB is a bad hero because two stuns a huge movespeed aura and mapewide ganks at level 5 are so easy to counter. Having all 5 of your teammates grouped up roaming the map but still also farming is as easy as snapping your fingers in doters.

    Every strategy you think you can come up with CAN be dealt with by Drow's team. The game is still 5v5, after all, and she will be even stronger than any other hypercarry at level 6 with a silence and twice the damage of a hero like AM.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-01-02 at 06:08 PM.
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  2. #4802
    I do hope you're not responding to me, because in that case you'd be responding to a number of things I don't think I've said or implied.

    I wasn't sure if I wanted to be dragged into this discussion so I was merely pointing out some more updated statistics and that her current state isn't as far from her 6.75 form as it used to be before the TSA changes.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-01-02 at 06:13 PM.
    Manni of Paragon. Moderator of Dota 2 subforum - The golden rule: Listen to Lysah. Seriously.

  3. #4803
    Brewmaster Poppasan's Avatar
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    Drow was overpowered when she had the global aura, but now she is back the way she was with more damage. She is still probably the easiest hero to gank in the entire game and she just doesn't fare well since the meta is not 4 protect 1. She will get wrecked in a competitive game of any degree.

  4. #4804
    Just finishing my thoughts on the matter. But to respond to you directly, what does any other carry bring to the table? AM has auto attacks and mobility, considered a top pick. PL extremely susceptible to AoE, considered a top pick. Sure, these two heroes can escape a gank better, but why let Drow be ganked in the first place? She will outfarm both of them in the jungle.

    @Poppasan
    I'll have to restate my position on balancing a game played by millions around matches played by 50 - let's not do it. 80% win rate by the 99% and 5% winrate by the 1% does not make for a fun hero. I also highly doubt she would not keep an even winrate in tourneys if people started playing their team around her.
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  5. #4805
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    She has 4 allies, too, and they can easily afford to sit in the river and protect her while she farms and your team wastes all of its time trying to gank.
    Okay new PRO start? 4 allies protecting Drow Ranger? Don't be hilarious. What you write is wasting all team resource over protecting drow by the time she got her items you would lose raxes in two lanes. Not to mention a free farmed void can kill her in 1 Chronosphere time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    If you've never tried to gank drow just to eat silence and be 4 shotted, I don't know what to tell you
    What? 4 shots? That's not possible unless heroes are ganking naked. You are exaggerating her damage. It's strong but not that strong. I play against Drow every other game and I've never seen her 4 shotting people without items.

    Your entire strategy depends on support of drow making the opener, drow is picking kills up but that's not possible in practice. If you counter ward all the time, you will be harrassing her farm effectively. Or you could just ignore her and push the lanes while she's farming and her team mates are wasting their time with protecting her. Until she makes her way to pro scene(need more observation), I will just consider her not OP because of her drawbacks.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2013-01-02 at 06:23 PM.

  6. #4806
    Brewmaster Poppasan's Avatar
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    @Lysah I am sorry but I do not think I understand. What I do grasp from what you said is that balancing should be done based on the public games instead of the pro games. Is this correct? I am very sorry since English isn't my first language.

  7. #4807
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Okay new PRO start? 4 allies protecting Drow Ranger? Don't be hilarious. What you write is wasting all team resource over protecting drow by the time she got her items you would lose raxes in two lanes. Not to mention a free farmed void can kill anybody in 1 Chronosphere time.
    Using arguments that apply to any hero doesn't really convince me.

    @Poppasan
    Both, ideally. If that isn't possible then yes, I would prefer they balance heroes around the actual game and not the esports scene. DotA should not be a game you download just so you can watch replays. Lastly, many heroes who are balanced around pubs (ursa) are rarely, if ever, picked in tourneys at all, despite how good they are (or not).
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  8. #4808
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    Icefrog has stated that balance around the actual game will never happen.

  9. #4809
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Using arguments that apply to any hero doesn't really convince me.
    That statement was trying to say wasting all team resources for the sake of trax's farm is not a good strategy unlike you covered in your post.

    edit
    I couldn't ressist...

    You couldn't even understand what that post is trying to say.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2013-01-02 at 09:10 PM.

  10. #4810
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    .
    @Poppasan
    I'll have to restate my position on balancing a game played by millions around matches played by 50 - let's not do it. 80% win rate by the 99% and 5% winrate by the 1% does not make for a fun hero. I also highly doubt she would not keep an even winrate in tourneys if people started playing their team around her.
    I just realized that I have like 12 games and one loss on Drow. But as I stated before, there are several carrys that wreck her completly even when she is fully farmed. Do you have a good farmed carry all you need is one stun on her and she will drop instantly. She is a good pubhero only cause teams often suck at working together.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poppasan View Post
    Icefrog has stated that balance around the actual game will never happen.
    = CAN never happen. This game is impossible to balance

  11. #4811
    Quote Originally Posted by Kerdozia View Post
    = CAN never happen. This game is impossible to balance
    I agree, but when a hero has a huge winrate by the majority of players I feel someone should look into it. Trying to say "those are just pub games they don't matter" is the exact same attitude that gets any other game in trouble. How much fun is WoW PvP, which is balanced around arena and BGs be damned? Vast majority of people DON'T participate, as opposed to those who do. Are we going to say that, because we're so elitist about the esports, that DotA2 should stay at 100k players forever? If a hero like Drow is an auto-win in low skill games, it doesn't matter how bad she is in pro games, average players will quit the game because in THEIR queue the team that clicks Drow faster wins, and that is not fun. It's a game, not a sport. At least, that's how it should be. I realize the entire world revolves around making money first and having fun second.

    As far as heroes who stop Drow, of course there are many. The problem isn't that she's uncounterable, the problem is that the heroes that stop her either aren't in the game or aren't ever used. SB is great for the job, he can get next to her (cancelling half her ult) and then bash her to death, his ult will also do half of her HP since she's a low health ranged carry. SB also has a high win rate, but when was the last time you saw him in a game? I seen him 1/50, MAYBE. Invis heroes are great for the job (they can stop her from jungling, too) but they're easily stopped with true sight. I'd argue for a hero like Wolf, but his strength isn't in being a strong hero, it's getting farm quickly from the jungle. Late game a hero like sniper can easily stand toe to toe with him and win (lolpermastun).

    We run into the problem where Drow is simply going to farm, you cannot be on top of her 100% of the time. Even with just buriza she does so much damage when she has her full ult up. If she can bring a TH and tag your team with even 2 seconds of stun someone's dead, every time. A counter pick like Wolf might work really well in a 1v1 situation, but give her a hero like VS who can stop him for two seconds and, even better, has a -armor +damage and position swap kit, and he falls over too. You bring a sand king to help wolf and Drow brings Enigma. We get to the point where almost all of Drow's counters are melee, which is already a disadvantage because in a 5v5 lineup her range allows her to do damage before the enemy carry even gets in range, logically, and she has a lot of it.

    My favorite moments are ganking feeder Drow top who is 0-4 and only has treads and branches, just for her to get shallow grave and kill two people in those few seconds.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-01-02 at 09:42 PM.
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  12. #4812
    Quote Originally Posted by Kerdozia View Post
    = CAN never happen. This game is impossible to balance
    No hero needs to 100% completely balanced, and the game can still be balanced, that's the glory of it. As it's a 5v5, hero balance doesn't matter, as much as player synergy with each other, and hero synergy with each other.


    Also, I feel like Drow would get crushed by Axe mid-game. A well timed blink, taunt, and Blade Mail would have her killing herself in seconds, Culling Blade possibly not even needed.

  13. #4813
    Correct me if I am wrong but as far as I know DotA is balanced around competitive scene for years and seems like it's going pretty strong to me. Also, the Idea of balancing heroes for players who have no idea what that particular hero capable of is the worst idea ever.

  14. #4814
    Bloodsail Admiral Torched's Avatar
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    Does anyone have a spare key that I can have?

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by Torched; 2013-01-02 at 11:32 PM.

  15. #4815
    I think a game should never, ever be balanced around the average player
    The average player is completely awful. I dont know how long its been for you guys since you played an average skill level pub but I dont think balancing heroes for a demographic that starts boots tango on mid Clinkz would work.
    The vast majority of players play at a level where skill is so over the place that in order to make heroes balanced there they would all have to be the same because a simple mechanic like "dont move when BS uses rupture" is already too complicated for them
    If we went down that path we would eventually make the game into LoL where half the heroes have the same mechanics because everything other than gapcloser, nuke, stun, shield, steroid is too complicated
    There are limits of course, >60% winrate is probably too high, which is why Drow no longer has her global push aura, which puts her at 56% winrate now.
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  16. #4816
    Quote Originally Posted by Torched View Post
    Does anyone have a spare key that I can have?

    Thanks in advance.
    PM steam name etc

  17. #4817
    It's a balance. I do think drow is a bit overpowered to be honest, she farms up to easily. This may not be the case in the pro games and that's fine but that doesn't mean lower levels of play should all but be ignored. If you want a game where everything is balanced around the pro level go play starcraft 2. It didn't help that games community none and it won't help dota 2. Having said that we should also take into account what happens at the pro levels as well. It's a balance between the two really.

  18. #4818
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    If you want a game where everything is balanced around the pro level go play starcraft 2. It didn't help that games community none and it won't help dota 2.
    If you're implying that this is the reason SC2 is dying I have to disagree. SC2 is dying because of awful custom map support, the balance has nothing to do with. BW was already balanced about the pro scene and it was massively popular.
    I agree with your general idea, there has to be some kind of balance even at low levels, which is why Drow no longer has her global push aura. Now she's sitting at 56% winrate, which is completely fine in my opinion.
    I just think that if we nerf every hero that forces you to play in a specific way if he's on the enemy team, or heroes that are really strong in some aspect we end up with a bunch of very similar heroes. If we took away drows free stats and aura for example, she'd be just another sniper just instead of a single target stun lock and long range nuke she'd have an AoE silence and inbuilt skadi
    By that logic we should probably take away AMs mana burn because he is way too good against STR/AGI heroes that use abilities. Or we should nerf Pudge because its total BS that he can 100-0 almost everyone early on by just hitting 1 hook
    Quote Originally Posted by icylock View Post
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  19. #4819
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkidulgaa View Post
    If you're implying that this is the reason SC2 is dying I have to disagree. SC2 is dying because of awful custom map support, the balance has nothing to do with. BW was already balanced about the pro scene and it was massively popular.
    I agree with your general idea, there has to be some kind of balance even at low levels, which is why Drow no longer has her global push aura. Now she's sitting at 56% winrate, which is completely fine in my opinion.
    I just think that if we nerf every hero that forces you to play in a specific way if he's on the enemy team, or heroes that are really strong in some aspect we end up with a bunch of very similar heroes. If we took away drows free stats and aura for example, she'd be just another sniper just instead of a single target stun lock and long range nuke she'd have an AoE silence and inbuilt skadi
    By that logic we should probably take away AMs mana burn because he is way too good against STR/AGI heroes that use abilities. Or we should nerf Pudge because its total BS that he can 100-0 almost everyone early on by just hitting 1 hook
    The balance is a part of the mentality that exists in the game and in the development team. To much emphasis on league and competitive play. Balance is a reflection of this as anything to "strong" is immediately nerfed into the ground. Sc2 is all about cut throat competition and if you can't step up well toodles. If you exploit anything remotely powerful to assists you well expect a nerf. Poor custom map support is also reflective of this. Anything that isn't ladder or league play is a back seat.
    As an experiment with Drow I ended up picking her after reading this thread. I was mid and about 5 minutes in I was already 0-5. By the end of the match I was 22-10. A couple of things that I noticed. Her ultimate is a bit to good at killing creeps. Her slow is a bit to good at slowing. And she has just a tad to much range. It's not that shes insanely broken it's just that shes a little bit to effective.
    Last edited by Leonard McCoy; 2013-01-03 at 04:23 AM.

  20. #4820
    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    The balance is a part of the mentality that exists in the game and in the development team. To much emphasis on league and competitive play. Balance is a reflection of this as anything to "strong" is immediately nerfed into the ground. Sc2 is all about cut throat competition and if you can't step up well toodles. If you exploit anything remotely powerful to assists you well expect a nerf. Poor custom map support is also reflective of this. Anything that isn't ladder or league play is a back seat.
    I never really followed SC2 after release so I cant comment in depth, but that is essentially how I felt about the game. They pushed the competitive aspect too much while providing nothing for the casual player.
    That said I dont see Dota having this problem. The game is pretty casual to begin with, and knowing Valve it will probably have a good mod scene.

    Quote Originally Posted by TonyIommi View Post
    As an experiment with Drow I ended up picking her after reading this thread. I was mid and about 5 minutes in I was already 0-5. By the end of the match I was 22-10. A couple of things that I noticed. Her ultimate is a bit to good at killing creeps. Her slow is a bit to good at slowing. And she has just a tad to much range. It's not that shes insanely broken it's just that shes a little bit to effective.
    Match ID? Without seeing the game I can only say one thing: they probably didnt have anyone that could just blink on top of Drow and murder her in 2 seconds, because thats the standard way of dealing with her. TA, SB and Cent are all good at that, just off the top of my head.
    She is probably the best hard carry to play in Pubs because those game are usually over at the 20 minute mark, before real hard carries even take off. She just needs levels to carry and can even gank with frost arrows.
    Quote Originally Posted by icylock View Post
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