[Megathread] DotA 2

[Hermanni]

Tiny's scepter upgrade is really, really overpowered.

I'm starting to feel like I should just ignoring these, it's not even funny any more.

[Enkidulgaa]

Why does he need to carry?

Because Icefrog wants him to be a carry
Therefore, he needs to be able to carry

[PizzaSHARK]

I'm starting to feel like I should just ignoring these, it's not even funny any more.

I'm starting to wonder if you're ever serious. Tiny gets more out of his scepter upgrade than anyone else, to the extent that it basically allows him to fill an entirely new role for the team, transitioning from a midgame ganker powerhouse to a lategame base-wrecking cleave carry.

No one else's scepter upgrade is that dramatic, or that powerful. So why is Tiny's? What's the justification for it being so much stronger than other scepter upgrades? Hell, Clockwerk's scepter is halfway to useless now, since literally the only thing it does is reduce the cooldown on his ulti.

[Imnick]

A lot of items are far more valuable for some heroes than others, I don't know why this one would be different.

[Finear]

NS "legal maphack" scepter?
it is strong to and no one is complaining

its not like you can take tiny in random lineup and as soon as you buy scepter
gg

[PizzaSHARK]

NS "legal maphack" scepter?
it is strong to and no one is complaining

its not like you can take tiny in random lineup and as soon as you buy scepter
gg

NS's doesn't expand his available roles or redefine the character. Tiny's scepter doesn't even make sense - it increases Toss damage for his combo, but why in the hell does it give him cleave, extra attack range, and extra building damage? Why does his scepter upgrade basically add an entire additional role to the class?

[Deleted]

NS's doesn't expand his available roles or redefine the character. Tiny's scepter doesn't even make sense - it increases Toss damage for his combo, but why in the hell does it give him cleave, extra attack range, and extra building damage? Why does his scepter upgrade basically add an entire additional role to the class?

If Ward is not a role, it should be.

[Longview]

Tiny gets more out of his scepter upgrade than anyone else, to the extent that it basically allows him to fill an entirely new role for the team, transitioning from a midgame ganker powerhouse to a lategame base-wrecking cleave carry.

I still do not see the issue. Could we agree on a meaning of "overpowered"?

[Lysah]

If Ward is not a role, it should be.

Although it is a rare role, it does exist in the game.

See: Crystal Maiden

I heavily disagree with butterfly and satanic on Tiny, but, knowing the enemy lineup could help. The combination of evasion and craggy against an enemy carry like Sven who is unlikely to get MKB could have been useful.

[Enkidulgaa]

NS's doesn't expand his available roles or redefine the character. Tiny's scepter doesn't even make sense - it increases Toss damage for his combo, but why in the hell does it give him cleave, extra attack range, and extra building damage? Why does his scepter upgrade basically add an entire additional role to the class?

Because the devs want it
Seriously whats so hard to understand? Often you cant just weigh different abilities/items against each other and then compare what hero X gets in contrast to hero Y
Icefrog thought it'd be cool if Aghs gave Tiny a tree to swing, made up some changes to his ultimate that made sense and here we are.
Also, Tiny needs insane amounts of attack speed otherwise he hits like twice per teamfight and thats it

[Lysah]

Hitting twice per team fight is no problem if you hit for 800 damage a swing, not to mention doing near full damage to buildings. Nothing says "fair" like killing a rax in two hits by yourself.

[Longview]

QoP/Tiny/Bane/Wisp/Nyx vs N'aix/WR/KotL/Weaver/SD, Dignitas vs TL respectively.

[Lysah]

N'aix would be pretty scary for tiny, but considering that feast is physical I wonder if he would take less damage just getting AC.

[Deleted]

Although it is a rare role, it does exist in the game.

See: Crystal Maiden

She'd die too fast to be effective.

[Lysah]

She'd die too fast to be effective.

No one said she wasn't easy to counter ward =p

[PizzaSHARK]

Because the devs want it
Seriously whats so hard to understand? Often you cant just weigh different abilities/items against each other and then compare what hero X gets in contrast to hero Y
Icefrog thought it'd be cool if Aghs gave Tiny a tree to swing, made up some changes to his ultimate that made sense and here we are.
Also, Tiny needs insane amounts of attack speed otherwise he hits like twice per teamfight and thats it

The need for farm has never proven to be an issue in the times when Tiny's been run as a carry in the past. Wisp is really the ideal partner for him, providing him mobility and free IAS in one place, and he's equally useful during Tiny's ganking phase and during Tiny's carry phase.

[Leonard McCoy]

It's a pretty fucking strong upgrade no doubt. Tiny hits like a truck and then gets cleave and siege damage on top. Give him a hyperstone on top and he's smacking fools around. I will say I wish the animation for toss changed so it looked like you were hitting whatever you tossed with the tree. Then it would become Bat I guess.

[Enkidulgaa]

The need for farm has never proven to be an issue in the times when Tiny's been run as a carry in the past. Wisp is really the ideal partner for him, providing him mobility and free IAS in one place, and he's equally useful during Tiny's ganking phase and during Tiny's carry phase.

I dont get what you're saying. If Tiny was so overpowered then why doesnt he have 80% winrate in competitive?
If he didnt have cleave and bonus building damage he would be awfully boring, its supposed to be his playstyle to farm until he has 6 items and then destroy 2 towers and a rax in 10 seconds. I guess PL is also overpowered because he can push with his illusions that require a full team to kill? Luna can kill multiple buildings a once, Leshrac only need to push towards a tower twice and its gone and he can do that as early as level 7
Thats kind of the point of Dota, every hero is massively overpowered in some aspect/can do something that no other hero can. I said this a few pages back, but when you nerf everything in the game that people perceive as overpowered we will eventually start playing League of Dota, where no hero is really special and everybody has the same gapcloser/nuke/shield/AoE ult abilities

[PizzaSHARK]

I dont get what you're saying. If Tiny was so overpowered then why doesnt he have 80% winrate in competitive?

Who knows? Sometimes it really does seem like heroes start being used and stopped being used completely independent of existing data, but just based on whim. He seems to do fine every time I've seen him used, though obviously I haven't seen every game.

If he didnt have cleave and bonus building damage he would be awfully boring, its supposed to be his playstyle to farm until he has 6 items and then destroy 2 towers and a rax in 10 seconds.

But wait. Didn't his assigned playstyle used to be arcane boots and blink dagger and run around instagibbing supports and some carries in the midgame with toss combos and scepter was considered optional rather than required?

Again, when you buy scepter, his entire gameplay style changes. He goes from a ganker/roamer (which I don't think I've even seen pros use him as anytime recently, they just start building as a carry right from the start) to a walking siege engine that can conceivably one-shot or two-shot entire teams like a Kunkka or Sven.

I'll admit Night Stalker's scepter upgrade is also a dramatic boost, but it doesn't really change his role... just makes him better at it. By time you're building scepter on him, you've already transitioned from a roamer/ganker into some sort of weird utility-carry (what's the preferred term? semi-carry?) in most cases, and giving him a scepter and a gem just kind of enhances what you're already doing - scouting around for your team with your crazy move speed and high inherent durability. It doesn't suddenly turn you into someone that eats towers or can actually fill in the hard carry role.

Again, why does Tiny's scepter need to do so much for him? Or, why can't everyone's scepter make similarly sweeping changes for them, opening up completely different playstyles and tactics for them?

[Underskilled]

Again, why does Tiny's scepter need to do so much for him? Or, why can't everyone's scepter make similarly sweeping changes for them, opening up completely different playstyles and tactics for them?

That would involve delving into the mindset of the developers. I really doubt when scepter was created, it was planned to be a MASSIVE gameplay change for each hero. Most likely, it was made simply to improve their ult. Now, looking at Tiny, his ult does quite a bit for him, so it only makes sense scepter does a lot for him as well.

Also keep in mind any balance issues that would occur, if such a change would be made, and DotA 2 is a pretty balanced game, huge changes could make massive impacts on tournaments, and the already not-so-large community.