1. #5281
    Quote Originally Posted by Jangri- View Post
    I think the timing for BF on your B) point is 12m naked and about 14m with treads IIRC. 10m is really hard unless you get EVERY creep and some kills/towers. The rest of statement stands.
    I don't play pure carry much so I'm not accustomed to what people would consider the normal timing for this item, I'll take your word for it =p
    The last time I bought BF was on AM at about 10-11, but I did get just about every creep in the lane (solo against DS, AM can just tank ion shell with his magic resist). Other than that recent game (few days ago) I can't really remember the last time I bought it on a hero other than Sven or Magnus...and I don't even buy it on Sven very much (Magnus every game because pers is great for him early + his ult makes sure he gets cleaves off).
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  2. #5282
    I didn't even know BF isn't recommended for AM, though I rarely have the suggestions open or look at them so I don't really know them for many heroes. I suppose it's from the time when rushing a Vanguard was the prevalent build. Personally, I usually avoid making a BF on any hero.

    Though I must say, Battlefury itself isn't actually bad on Bounty Hunter, it gives just the stats you need if you're about to have a good snowball and the added pushing/farming power is a bonus. However it's sadly common to see people think getting a BF and then farming alone and split-pushing like you're Anti-Mage is okay (or even efficient) while the rest of your team is pushing/defending and fighting elsewhere.
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  3. #5283
    Quote Originally Posted by Jangri- View Post
    I think the timing for BF on your B) point is 12m naked and about 14m with treads IIRC. 10m is really hard unless you get EVERY creep and some kills/towers. The rest of statement stands.
    I believe your math might be off as well. Assuming you're starting to build with 0 gold, building nothing else, getting 5 creeps per minute (Getting every creep in the wave, every time), with the gold from creeps averaging out to ~40 gold per creep, you'd have 2600 gold at 10 minutes, but that's assuming you've bought nothing else, and there's been no denies on their side.

    I might be off as well (2600 feels a little low to me, personally), but that's what the numbers are showing, assuming no towers or hero kills, of course. You could try to factor in jungle creeps, but you'd risk missing lane creeps, possibly lowering your gold.

  4. #5284
    4 creeps every 30 seconds is 8 creeps a minute? +3 siege weapons, which helps a little
    Creeps also average around 45 gold per kill, if you can farm 100% of the wave every time you can get ~400 gpm with no kills or towers.

    And yes, the point of discussion is to say that BF is not a great item for the cost and you should not buy it unless you farm is very, very near perfect in early game and you can use it to snowball into 30 minute manta/heart. If you get your regen ring at 3:00 and get ganked twice and aren't doing so well, make a vanguard with it instead because a 20+ minute BF will have you sitting at 800 health when team fights start happening, your choices will be to force your team to 4v5 (lots of pubs do this unfortunately) or to jump in team fights and die instantly.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-01-14 at 10:32 PM.
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  5. #5285
    Quote Originally Posted by Underskilled View Post
    I believe your math might be off as well. Assuming you're starting to build with 0 gold, building nothing else, getting 5 creeps per minute (Getting every creep in the wave, every time), with the gold from creeps averaging out to ~40 gold per creep, you'd have 2600 gold at 10 minutes, but that's assuming you've bought nothing else, and there's been no denies on their side.

    I might be off as well (2600 feels a little low to me, personally), but that's what the numbers are showing, assuming no towers or hero kills, of course. You could try to factor in jungle creeps, but you'd risk missing lane creeps, possibly lowering your gold.
    creeps are going in 4, every 30 seconds, so 8 per minute instead of 5. Thats 320 ~per minute. You also get 75g every minute passively, so about 400 GPM if you get every single creep. If your team gets a tower or two and you get some jungle creeps from pulls and have a freefarm without pressure, <10m BF doesnt really sound that unbelievable. 11-12m is probably the time, assuming AM buys boots somewhere inbetween. Heck, Sylla can have 14 mins radiance, 12min BF for AM might even be considered late for some

  6. #5286
    Ah, of course! Thank you two for pointing that out, I was calculating how long it took creep waves to get to you incorrectly, and apparently the amount that spawned as well!

    Though, 75g every minute? I assumed it was 1g per second. Either way, Getting every LH would put you at 3950 at 10 minutes, so it would be doable with a tower or hero kill. And adding boots to that, 11-11:30 seems to be about the earliest time you could get BF from just pure farming.

  7. #5287
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    creeps are going in 4, every 30 seconds, so 8 per minute instead of 5. Thats 320 ~per minute. You also get 75g every minute passively, so about 400 GPM if you get every single creep. If your team gets a tower or two and you get some jungle creeps from pulls and have a freefarm without pressure, <10m BF doesnt really sound that unbelievable. 11-12m is probably the time, assuming AM buys boots somewhere inbetween. Heck, Sylla can have 14 mins radiance, 12min BF for AM might even be considered late for some
    Yes, lasthitting every creep and catapult for the first 20 waves (10 minutes) and time gold equals a bit above 4300 (the average value is a bit above 40 gold actually, accurate values are in playdota), which is incidentally what a BF costs. And that's assuming you spent all of your 603 worth of starting gold or 853 worth of random gold. Without kills, towers, assists, neutral creep kills or courier kills.

    Edit: As of 6.74, you get 1 gold every 0.8 seconds, or 5 gold every 4 seconds, or 75 gold/minute.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-01-14 at 10:45 PM.
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  8. #5288
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Yes, lasthitting every creep and catapult for the first 20 waves (10 minutes) and time gold equals a bit above 4300 (the average value is a bit above 40 gold actually, accurate values are in playdota), which is incidentally what a BF costs. And that's assuming you spent all of your 603 worth of starting gold or 853 worth of random gold. Without kills, towers, assists, neutral creep kills or courier kills.

    Edit: As of 6.74, you get 1 gold every 0.8 seconds, or 5 gold every 4 seconds, or 75 gold/minute.
    true, forgot the sieges, thats couple hundred gold more.

  9. #5289
    I think BF is not a really good item on AM after 10 min because AM is not a good hard carry to begin with
    He can splitpush and assist by draining mana, but he's not the type of hard carry that can murder 5 people with ease once he has 6 items because he just lacks damage/lockdown
    You need some kind of midgame presence as AM or otherwise your team will just fall behind due to constant 4v5 to the point where you cant win no matter what items you have
    Now Void is a different matter because he can actually murder a whole team in the span of 1 chrono if he's just sufficiently fed and able to cleave a little bit. Sacrificing your mid game is not as bad when you know you are likely to win no matter how far behind your team is as long as your ancient stands.
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  10. #5290
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Though I must say, Battlefury itself isn't actually bad on Bounty Hunter, it gives just the stats you need if you're about to have a good snowball and the added pushing/farming power is a bonus.
    While I see how it can be a good pickup at times, having it under "core" just feels way off.

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  11. #5291
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    While I see how it can be a good pickup at times, having it under "core" just feels way off.
    I haven't played many games with BH but in general, if I can get BF before 20 min mark, I go for it. It gives both good damage and nice regen which allows you to run around the map killing people without the actual need to go back to fountain that often (assuming you weren't on mid of course in which case you have bottle anyway and BF loses its early appeal). I feel that after certain time (in this case, 20 min give or take), making BF does more "harm" than going for something else like Desolator. Either way, I regard BF as a really solid item for BH, especially if he's played like he's supposed to be, i.e omnipresent ganker getting his gold off track kills.

    I do feel however that it's more of a situational items for AM or PA. If enemy team doesn't have 5 lockdown heroes with pushing capabilities - sure, go for it. Otherwise you're better off with going straight for manta imo (for AM that is).
    Last edited by Grimsdott; 2013-01-15 at 10:58 AM.

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  12. #5292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    I didn't even know BF isn't recommended for AM, though I rarely have the suggestions open or look at them so I don't really know them for many heroes. I suppose it's from the time when rushing a Vanguard was the prevalent build. Personally, I usually avoid making a BF on any hero.

    Though I must say, Battlefury itself isn't actually bad on Bounty Hunter, it gives just the stats you need if you're about to have a good snowball and the added pushing/farming power is a bonus. However it's sadly common to see people think getting a BF and then farming alone and split-pushing like you're Anti-Mage is okay (or even efficient) while the rest of your team is pushing/defending and fighting elsewhere.
    I've actually always been curious why they never seem to build Orchid on BH. He's a ganker and the mana regen sustains constant windwalk/shuriken use, and then it gives you a good silence on a short cooldown.
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  13. #5293
    that's because desolator is just superior, you want to one shot squishy heroes and provide that awesome damage amplifier on heave dudes asap, and while orchid is good mid and late game item it doesnt do much in the early stage of the game.

  14. #5294
    I only ever go battlefury on: Void/AM/PA/Juggernut .. so 4 heroes :P

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 11:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mouzfun View Post
    that's because desolator is just superior, you want to one shot squishy heroes and provide that awesome damage amplifier on heave dudes asap, and while orchid is good mid and late game item it doesnt do much in the early stage of the game.
    Disagree. Orchid is best gotten early, before the enemies heroes actually gets bkb's and manta's.
    Last edited by MasterOfInvocation; 2013-01-15 at 10:10 AM.

  15. #5295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouzfun View Post
    that's because desolator is just superior, you want to one shot squishy heroes and provide that awesome damage amplifier on heave dudes asap, and while orchid is good mid and late game item it doesnt do much in the early stage of the game.
    I dunno man, Orchid's 25% damage amp on top of the silence. It means you can gank heroes that would otherwise have an escape button, while Deso doesn't. Even with maxed Jinada and a Deso, I don't think BH can one-shot equivalent leveled enemies that tend to have escape mechanisms :/
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  16. #5296
    I think a wave of Dota 2 invites went out today. Seeing tons of trading / giveaway posts on steam forums. If anyone has a spare by chance of this wave I'd like to snag one :P

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  18. #5298
    I am Murloc! Grading's Avatar
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    Why can't I hold all these Dota 2-invites

    Got five more thrown at me today. I think I have about 10 now.

  19. #5299
    I'm wondering why there is still no separate section for Dota 2.

    PS: I have 24 Dota 2 invites lying around, send me a PM, if you want one.

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-15 at 12:02 PM ----------

    Antimage needs to survive early, Vanguard, Powertreads, Magic Stick is a perfect build in the first 10-15 minutes. Later you can focus on your core items, such as Manta, Basher, Vlads etc. Also, your creep calculations are just theoretical, you never know when a harassing hero comes in front of you.

  20. #5300
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    With all the beta keys going out I wonder why they don't just make it open? I remember my friend getting a beta key 3 weeks before me or something and we weren't aware of people having all these keys so I had to wait untill he got 5, 3 weeks after. That kinda sucked balls when we found out there were so many keys lying around..
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