1. #6561
    I am Murloc! Grading's Avatar
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    In that case, WR would have something like a "half-reliable" stun, because it always hits, but is not always guaranteed the full duration.

    Sort of like Chaos Knight too.

  2. #6562
    Quote Originally Posted by reighnman View Post
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  3. #6563
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grading View Post
    In that case, WR would have something like a "half-reliable" stun, because it always hits, but is not always guaranteed the full duration.

    Sort of like Chaos Knight too.
    CK would be reliable because it's always at least 2 seconds. Hell, it's better than Magic Missile in that sense because it has a negligible cooldown. Since the timer is clearly displayed you don't have to worry about screwing up disable chain timing either.
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  4. #6564
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichy View Post
    so single target stun = reliable... thats news to me. Going Illuminate + Power shot main is what will give lane control. Most builds on ither hero don't pick up the ulty till 10 or 14 any way, so a good amount of points, lets say 2 n 2 for Kotl, and 3 n 1 for WR, will set something up. Also, early game builds include Mana Mask (forget the damn name atm) which will help out enough for the one that doesn't currently need/get chakra.

    The deny stregth might be an issue, but the harass is again where the lane is won. If even just 2 illuminate (assuming all Power Shots miss) hits the enemy hero(s) it will be enough to push them back out of xp range, even more so if the power shots hit. Items and farm on both heroes won't be an issue. The first heroes that comes to mind that will at least be able to get some farm done vs this setup is is PA because of the range on dagger, or slark once he hits 6 (increased regen as long as he can't be seen). Squishy ranged will have an extra hard time (voodoo, shadow shaman, clinks, riki, veno), decent HP heros will have less of an issue, but still won't be able to perform as.... "normal".
    when did I say single target stun are the only ones reliable? I clearly listed Sven, Nyx, Lion, SK, ES, those are not single target? A .75 second stun is a mini-stun. You know what I mean by reliable stun, don't have to twist things around just for the sake of it.
    Heroes that can pull creep waves like Bear, BH, known solos like DS, Weaver, Clinkz, Puck... Again, the lack of a "reliable stun" is what makes it not that great of a lane for me.
    Last edited by OscaR; 2013-02-27 at 08:38 PM.

  5. #6565
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichy View Post
    If you read Oscars post he lists ES as having a reliable stun, and lion too. I guess if you can "target" the hero and have the stun "hit" its reliable... ether way, under yours and his definition... shackle shot is still reliable. Just has more "positioning" requirement then say Storm Bolt or Magic Missle, but not more so then split earth or avalanche.
    As far as I know, ES and Lion are capable of targetting their stuns onto a hero and guaranteeing a hit. (barring force staff)
    The only time WR can "guarantee" a full stun is if you have force staff and you're a kung fu master.

  6. #6566
    Quote Originally Posted by Okuu View Post
    (barring force staff)
    or haste or run fast abilities

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  7. #6567
    Quote Originally Posted by Okuu View Post
    As far as I know, ES and Lion are capable of targetting their stuns onto a hero and guaranteeing a hit. (barring force staff)
    The only time WR can "guarantee" a full stun is if you have force staff and you're a kung fu master.
    Thats going a bit extreme, sure the first few like 2 games I played her, her stun was hard to land for full duration. But just like any hero, practice makes perfect... by the end of the 2nd game i was able to land full duration stuns on demand, even in "cluster fuck" oh shit moments.

    As the Es/lion comment, they are, but its not uncommon to see people trying to be "pro" and clicking the ground to launch the stun as that's possible as well. Es has a position component to his as if its done right you can gurante a kill at lvl 1 by blocking an enemy hero back tracking to their tower (say on safe lane) with your melee creeps. Of course this baring its a low HP hero... drow, veno, shadow shaman.

    @OscR. out side of Es and Sven, all other stuns you listed are single target. Sven's has an AOE component, but you still have to target a hero to for it to be casted. Es, Nyx and Lion can be targeted to ground or enemy player and still go off. As I mentioned earlier some people like to try and play "pro" and will cast in on the ground in hopes of a "hit" Es and Nyx's stun might hit multiple people as long as they are in the path. Not sure on Nyx's, if its target on a hero it only hits that hero and doesn't continue out. Lions is will only hit the target hero or 1 hero if cast on the ground.

    VS, Sand King, Skel King, Gyro, Shadow Shaman (Shackle), CM's Frost bite (the encasement) are good examples of single target stuns

    Tide, Magnus, Enigma are good examples of Multi Hero stuns - ulty version

    WR, Sven, Witch Doctor are good examples of Multi Hero stuns

    Lina, Lesh, Tiny are also good example of Multi Hero stuns that don't have to target a player. These are generally considered Unreliable.

    Enigma, Witch Doctor, Envoker are good examples of mini stuns

  8. #6568
    I wouldn't consider malefice to be a mini stun. It might only stun for a second but the combination of three in a row pretty much prevents someone from doing anything. Only a hero with blink is going to get away in the tiny window it gives you to act.
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  9. #6569
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichy View Post
    Thats going a bit extreme, sure the first few like 2 games I played her, her stun was hard to land for full duration. But just like any hero, practice makes perfect... by the end of the 2nd game i was able to land full duration stuns on demand, even in "cluster fuck" oh shit moments.
    For every person who knows how to shackle well, there's at least one person who knows how to avoid a shackle well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ichy View Post
    As the Es/lion comment, they are, but its not uncommon to see people trying to be "pro" and clicking the ground to launch the stun as that's possible as well.
    I fail to see how people playing like shit is relevant when you claim that Shackleshot, which is far harder to hit well, you expect to hit every time.

  10. #6570
    I don't know why it's even a debate. Reliable stuns, you can "rely" on it stunning people the majority of the time. If it makes you happy, WR's shackle is a reliable mini stun and an unreliable 3.75s stun. It doesn't matter how well you play your WR, the stun depends on the situation, the location of the target and his movements, something you can not control.
    And CM's frostbite is not a stun either.

  11. #6571
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichy View Post
    Thats going a bit extreme, sure the first few like 2 games I played her, her stun was hard to land for full duration. But just like any hero, practice makes perfect... by the end of the 2nd game i was able to land full duration stuns on demand, even in "cluster fuck" oh shit moments.

    As the Es/lion comment, they are, but its not uncommon to see people trying to be "pro" and clicking the ground to launch the stun as that's possible as well. Es has a position component to his as if its done right you can gurante a kill at lvl 1 by blocking an enemy hero back tracking to their tower (say on safe lane) with your melee creeps. Of course this baring its a low HP hero... drow, veno, shadow shaman.

    @OscR. out side of Es and Sven, all other stuns you listed are single target. Sven's has an AOE component, but you still have to target a hero to for it to be casted. Es, Nyx and Lion can be targeted to ground or enemy player and still go off. As I mentioned earlier some people like to try and play "pro" and will cast in on the ground in hopes of a "hit" Es and Nyx's stun might hit multiple people as long as they are in the path. Not sure on Nyx's, if its target on a hero it only hits that hero and doesn't continue out. Lions is will only hit the target hero or 1 hero if cast on the ground.

    VS, Sand King, Skel King, Gyro, Shadow Shaman (Shackle), CM's Frost bite (the encasement) are good examples of single target stuns

    Tide, Magnus, Enigma are good examples of Multi Hero stuns - ulty version

    WR, Sven, Witch Doctor are good examples of Multi Hero stuns

    Lina, Lesh, Tiny are also good example of Multi Hero stuns that don't have to target a player. These are generally considered Unreliable.

    Enigma, Witch Doctor, Envoker are good examples of mini stuns
    This seems to be a mostly off topic ramble. Lysah is correct. Reliable stuns are those you can hit every time (barring a disjoint or bkb). Reliable/Unreliable stun has nothing to do with aoe/single target stun.

    If you can hit 100% of your WR shackles on your 2nd windrunner game, then you are either the Bobby Fischer of Windrunner, or embellishing the truth a bit (or a lot).

  12. #6572
    Quote Originally Posted by Okuu View Post
    For every person who knows how to shackle well, there's at least one person who knows how to avoid a shackle well.

    I fail to see how people playing like shit is relevant when you claim that Shackleshot, which is far harder to hit well, you expect to hit every time.
    Your right their is, but thats not the current arugment.

    Um... Shackle shot is easy to hit, and can be hit every time... Shackle shotting 2 heroes together or to a tree/creep is a different story. Depending on the situation It might be better to just use shackle shot as an interrupt, like during a bane ulty or enigma ulty. Also... player skill is always relevant, I could say sven's is a shit hero because I can't play him well. Is it true? no, is it relevant yes.

    @ Lysah I think at level 4 theirs very little delay between the stuns, but till that point its more like Invokers stun, where their is enough duration between them that something can be done. So, i guess i'll amend my earlier statement and say, that pre-level 4 its a "mini" stun.

  13. #6573
    hey how do i go about reporting a bug? I got doombringer bracers the other day (the elven doom something or other ones) and whenever I move they don't follow my character. The armor like stays behind him and then when doombringer stops they magically warp to his wrists.

  14. #6574
    Quote Originally Posted by Leonard McCoy View Post
    hey how do i go about reporting a bug? I got doombringer bracers the other day (the elven doom something or other ones) and whenever I move they don't follow my character. The armor like stays behind him and then when doombringer stops they magically warp to his wrists.
    http://dev.dota2.com/

    Though you might want to check the known bugs list first to avoid posting about something that isn't new: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=13563
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  15. #6575
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzz View Post
    This seems to be a mostly off topic ramble. Lysah is correct. Reliable stuns are those you can hit every time (barring a disjoint or bkb). Reliable/Unreliable stun has nothing to do with aoe/single target stun.

    If you can hit 100% of your WR shackles on your 2nd windrunner game, then you are either the Bobby Fischer of Windrunner, or embellishing the truth a bit (or a lot).
    The first time I played WR I already had the concept of how her shackle worked. but I had a good aoe hero on the team, tide, magnus or something like that. So unless they were caught in the multi stun from that good aoe hero, they would always spread to far out to shackle together, and that is where my folly laid. I always wanted to try and shackle 2 heroes together for "maximum" effect.

    The 2nd time I played her I was with a group of friends and we did random draft and I took to long to decided and ended up with her. In the beginning I still had that mentality of using shackle when you can get two heroes. But early on, by say 8 minutes. we had missed 2 easy kills because I was trying to shackle two heroes instead of just trying to shackle to a tree or creep. At that point I got bitched at by my friend and lane partner. Pissed that I had been yelled at I started just using the ability when ever I could. Thus if it was off CD, I used it. What this lead to was me noticing the max distance and angle full duration shackle would happen. By the end of the game, I had a good grasp of where the enemy needed to be in order to get a full shackle, if I should use it to get that full duration, or use to interrupt someone else and save a team mate.


    Knowledge of a hero goes a long way. Also, people are prone to pick up different hero's faster than others. For me WR was a hero i picked up easily because of play style and situation. A hero I've played many times and still don't do well with is Furion, and it would be easy to argue that he's far easier to use then WR, yet in at least 3 of the games I've played with him, the sole reason we lost is because I couldn't play him well.

  16. #6576
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    http://dev.dota2.com/

    Though you might want to check the known bugs list first to avoid posting about something that isn't new: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=13563
    Thanks. Can't seem to find it there.

  17. #6577
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    Is there any real way to quickly improve with a certain hero, a batch of heroes or a certain role besides simply practicing them? I've been playing AR a lot more lately but I regularly stumble upon heroes with whom I struggle, such as Lesh. Repeatedly canceling his stun feels more awkward than canceling other spells.

    Also v1lat doesn't seem to be particularly impressed with Na`Vi's roster change.

  18. #6578
    Quote Originally Posted by Coffer View Post
    Is there any real way to quickly improve with a certain hero, a batch of heroes or a certain role besides simply practicing them? I've been playing AR a lot more lately but I regularly stumble upon heroes with whom I struggle, such as Lesh. Repeatedly canceling his stun feels more awkward than canceling other spells.
    There are a lot of very specific and in-depth guides when it comes to roles. As for certain heroes, buy a tournament ticket (something with a lot of games, D2L for example). Search games after said hero, watch replay from their PoV. Watch their movement and their decisions. If they end up dying or losing their lane, could they have lived/won their lane? How? Watch when they move in and initiate and when they play safe. You get the idea.

    Do note that no player is infallible and regardless of how well their team is performing, there will be mistakes. Sometimes you die even if you made the correct decision. To draw a comparison to poker: When you have a strong hand (and a statistical advantage), you go for it. Even if you end up losing to a better hand, there are situations where going in is worth the risk every time. There's a difference between a player making a mistake, and a player taking a risk which turns out bad.

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  19. #6579
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  20. #6580
    Rogue dragon knight? And they said I was a stupid paranoid lunatic for building an underground bomb shelter!
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