1. #7021
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    But his stun is useless if you don't have some way of having it ready and in position before it's needed - like a lothar's or invis rune. You can't rely on fog of war because any competent team will have wards and will see you moving around.

    His stun can also easily be denied with a silence or stun of your own, or by simply getting out of range (force staff, fog, etc.)

    You crack me up. Always so angry and opinionated.

    And I'm assuming you'll also say that pro's never picked Sven as a support. Just because someone can be a carry, doesn't mean that can't also be a support if played as one. Pro's don't pick Alch for support because there are usually better ones. That doesn't mean alch CAN'T support. It just means when you CAN CHOOSE YOUR HEROES, you probably wouldn't pick him. But if you do an AR and get alch and 4 other carries, you could play alch as a support in that situation.

    For someone who is constantly on the case of "Omg everyone just follows what the pro's do even though there's so many other viable playstyles", I have no clue how you can use the "Why don't pros do it then" as an argument. You do realize those two arguments are fundamentally opposed, right?

    Alch has a very long duration and potent stun (though yes it does have situational issues, but so does Lina and Leshrac). Maybe roam him with another stunner who initiates first. Alch has acid spray which is great for pushing as it owns creep waves and also makes it hard for enemy team to counter your push (especially at early levels). Acid spray also reduces armor, solid for a teamfight. Alch is also good at stacking neutrals, especially in radiant jungle. And then can clear them all with well placed acid spray. His greed increases the gold he would get from this jungling and allow him to buy items quicker than other supports would since they can't clear the jungle (with exceptions) and dont get bonus gold. Finally, his ult is solid for move speed and regens.

    Is he an ideal support, probably not. Is he better as a carry, probably. But just because he doesn't fit your predetermined notion of a support, doesn't make him useless as one.

  2. #7022
    Anyone ever play enchantress without enchant? Since dota1 I've always played more of a carry enchant and gone with stats before enchant, which I do in dota2 as well unless I can jungle. I do pretty well with her like this but lately been getting a ton of qq that I don't get enchant early.

  3. #7023
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzz View Post
    You crack me up. Always so angry and opinionated.

    And I'm assuming you'll also say that pro's never picked Sven as a support. Just because someone can be a carry, doesn't mean that can't also be a support if played as one. Pro's don't pick Alch for support because there are usually better ones. That doesn't mean alch CAN'T support. It just means when you CAN CHOOSE YOUR HEROES, you probably wouldn't pick him. But if you do an AR and get alch and 4 other carries, you could play alch as a support in that situation.

    For someone who is constantly on the case of "Omg everyone just follows what the pro's do even though there's so many other viable playstyles", I have no clue how you can use the "Why don't pros do it then" as an argument. You do realize those two arguments are fundamentally opposed, right?

    Alch has a very long duration and potent stun (though yes it does have situational issues, but so does Lina and Leshrac). Maybe roam him with another stunner who initiates first. Alch has acid spray which is great for pushing as it owns creep waves and also makes it hard for enemy team to counter your push (especially at early levels). Acid spray also reduces armor, solid for a teamfight. Alch is also good at stacking neutrals, especially in radiant jungle. And then can clear them all with well placed acid spray. His greed increases the gold he would get from this jungling and allow him to buy items quicker than other supports would since they can't clear the jungle (with exceptions) and dont get bonus gold. Finally, his ult is solid for move speed and regens.

    Is he an ideal support, probably not. Is he better as a carry, probably. But just because he doesn't fit your predetermined notion of a support, doesn't make him useless as one.
    First of all, you gain one skill pointer per level not 3 which means you won't be leveling greed and won't get those key support items faster than other supports. Hybrid-skilling won't work because as support you need to level your stun. Also you need to level your acid if you want it to be effective. His ultimate is irrelevant as support. Why? Because you will be ignored. Support alchemist do not posses any serious threat in a team fight and he's not easy to kill unlike some other int supports. Acid is a good utility in late game, however, most of the early and mid game fights are composed of magical bursts so that's not ultra-great and fights occur in early-mid game tend be fast paced and end quickly. Such fights will be over before your acid do some serious damage. It's damage over time is moderate if you stand still whole fight. It's not reliable as it's easy to avoid. I am not saying you can avoid it in every single fight because that's not possible sometimes, however, it's not that fight changing. He's best tool is his stun and I am not sure how reliable it is. Sure, it will mostly work ganks but not sure about team fights. He's not even close to being a good support. Even CM(which most consider as a weak support) can not be ignored because of her ultimate and other bursts but you can surely ignore alchemist. I can understand that he may be best candidate for being support in AR if you have 4 carries but not like he has some potential like you wrote.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2013-03-26 at 10:45 PM.

  4. #7024
    I play enchantress without untouchable. Enchant is too powerful.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  5. #7025
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    First of all, you gain one skill pointer per level not 3 which means you won't be leveling greed and won't get those key support items faster than other supports. Hybrid-skilling won't work because as support you need to level your stun. Also you need to level your acid if you want it to be effective. His ultimate is irrelevant as support. Why? Because you will be ignored. Support alchemist do not posses any serious threat in a team fight and he's not easy to kill unlike some other int supports. Acid is a good utility in late game, however, most of the early and mid game fights are composed of magical bursts so that's not ultra-great and fights occur in early-mid game tend be fast paced and end quickly. Such fights will be over before your acid do some serious damage. It's damage over time is moderate if you stand still whole fight. It's not reliable as it's easy to avoid. I am not saying you can avoid it in every single fight because that's not possible sometimes, however, it's not that fight changing. He's best tool is his stun and I am not sure how reliable it is. Sure, it will mostly work ganks but not sure about team fights. He's not even close to being a good support. Even CM(which most consider as a weak support) can not be ignored because of her ultimate and other bursts but you can surely ignore alchemist. I can understand that he may be best candidate for being support in AR if you have 4 carries but not like he has some potential like you wrote.
    I don't know why you think he thinks you get 3 skill points per level, no part of his post implied that you need to be able to magically level all skills in the early game. And how can Chemical Rage be irrelevant for support, it's a ton of mana and HP regen every 45 seconds and a boost to max HP and movement speed. Those are good stats for every hero.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-27 at 12:46 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by reighnman View Post
    Anyone ever play enchantress without enchant? Since dota1 I've always played more of a carry enchant and gone with stats before enchant, which I do in dota2 as well unless I can jungle. I do pretty well with her like this but lately been getting a ton of qq that I don't get enchant early.
    I really doubt there's a good Ench build that involves not putting at least 1 point in Enchant early on.



    Manni | paragon.fi | Dota 2 forum | The golden rule: Listen to Lysah.

  6. #7026
    Having 2 big creeps really early on is too good to skip enchant.

  7. #7027
    Quote Originally Posted by OscaR View Post
    Having 2 big creeps really early on is too good to skip enchant.
    Yes, even if for whatever reason you're playing as carry on a lane there's just little reason to not put 1 point in it, makes occasional jungling easier and you can scout and push more efficiently, and in fights you have a passable slow or you can steal enemy summons or illusions. I played a few Enchantress games as carry on my alt account, every game I just put a point or two in Enchant and skilled stats as much as I could: http://dotabuff.com/matches/104239064 http://dotabuff.com/matches/112834914 http://dotabuff.com/matches/72491418. Works fairly well as long as you don't condemn your team into losing early game because you had to farm and can position yourself so you don't get killed first in fights when enemies realize you're their biggest threat.



    Manni | paragon.fi | Dota 2 forum | The golden rule: Listen to Lysah.

  8. #7028
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzz View Post
    Is he an ideal support, probably not. Is he better as a carry, probably. But just because he doesn't fit your predetermined notion of a support, doesn't make him useless as one.
    The entire point is that AR puts teams into these situations when it really doesn't need to. There's no reason you should sacrifice 300 gold and end up getting another carry, or another INT, or whatever. I'm fine with initial drafts being whatever, but repicks should guarantee a different stat or role or something, otherwise there is zero reason to ever repick.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
    MMOC IRC!

  9. #7029
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    I don't know why you think he thinks you get 3 skill points per level, no part of his post implied that you need to be able to magically level all skills in the early game. And how can Chemical Rage be irrelevant for support, it's a ton of mana and HP regen every 45 seconds and a boost to max HP and movement speed. Those are good stats for every hero.
    Well, he said you will be getting items before other supports and I instantly wondered how? If you level greed first then you will be missing either stun or acid. Other wise you will be missing greed. In his posts, he ,somehow, implies making use of all abilities of Alch. My statement was they aren't useful if you don't level them. Also alch ultimate is good but if you are supporting, you won't posses any threat. They can easily ignore you, wipe your team and then target you that's why his ultimate is not that great for support alchemist. Same can not be said for even weaker supports.

  10. #7030
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Well, he said you will be getting items before other supports and I instantly wondered how? If you level greed first then you will be missing either stun or acid. Other wise you will be missing greed. In his posts, he ,somehow, implies making use of all abilities of Alch. My statement was they aren't useful if you don't level them. Also alch ultimate is good but if you are supporting, you won't posses any threat. They can easily ignore you, wipe your team and then target you that's why his ultimate is not that great for support alchemist. Same can not be said for even weaker supports.
    Maybe I'm crazy... but the discussion was about having unbalanced teams in AR and how to utilize certain heroes in different ways. Obviously if you did an AR and got a CM and an alch, the CM would be the main support. Never was this about actively selecting alch as a support hero. This was about maximizing the best of a bad situation when doing AR.

    And if you don't like the way AR selects heroes, then don't use that mode. Use SD as its sort of random and still allows you usually to choose different roles. The game allows so many different ways of playing, I don't understand why people complain about game modes they could just avoid playing. I happen to find AR to be a lot of fun. It avoids the insta nyx/kotl/pl picks. It forces you to play heroes you might not usually play and end up enjoying playing. It requires you to sometimes play a hero in a different way. If none of these things sound good to you, then don't play AR imo.

  11. #7031
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Other wise you will be missing greed.
    WEWQWRWQQQ build is impossible or what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    if you are supporting, you won't posses any threat. They can easily ignore you, wipe your team and then target you
    Yet people just keep picking CM, don't they.

  12. #7032
    Quote Originally Posted by Okuu View Post
    Yet people just keep picking CM, don't they.
    compares CM to Alchemist.
    Thinks it is relevant.
    Sure as sure

  13. #7033
    I never ignore CM, why would you ignore a sitting 300g? All you have to do is run over to it and right click and you're that much closer to your next item.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  14. #7034
    bristleback nooo

    Regular Dota

    Ranked Only
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRu0xts_rpI

  15. #7035
    Why is he so small...



    Manni | paragon.fi | Dota 2 forum | The golden rule: Listen to Lysah.

  16. #7036
    Today was a bad day.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  17. #7037
    Moderator Kerdoz's Avatar
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    What the? Bristleback.. FML

  18. #7038
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I never ignore CM, why would you ignore a sitting 300g? All you have to do is run over to it and right click and you're that much closer to your next item.
    No one ignores CM but people would ignore support Alch because he won't deal significant amount of damage or bring any utility to table other than an unreliable stun in team fights.

    @Keyzz
    I didn't even remotely imply that I don't like AR or complain about it. Also, I was just trying to say he has zero support potential outside of 5-carry-team situation.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-28 at 01:23 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Okuu View Post
    WEWQWRWQQQ build is impossible or what?
    This build will not increase GPM dramatically and let you buy key support items even before some other supports can. That was the discussion.

    I don't have DotA2 installed right now but checking from youtube his model is pretty disappointing.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2013-03-27 at 11:28 PM.

  19. #7039
    Bristleback is such a fun and powerful hero Even tho he's underrated i will be playing him lots.

    But his model is kind of disappointing :/

  20. #7040
    Brewmaster
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    Quote Originally Posted by vicbattou View Post
    Bristleback is such a fun and powerful hero Even tho he's underrated i will be playing him lots.

    But his model is kind of disappointing :/
    Underrated? WHAT?

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