1. #7081
    High Overlord Sistine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Every time you buy Vanguard on a ranged hero or Sange and Yasha on anyone, god kills a kitten. Don't kill kittens, guys.
    SnY is core on slark.... im just sayin bro

  2. #7082
    The Lightbringer Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    I have seen couple of SnY Naixes lately. Also not sure how troll they were, but just a few days ago I saw SnY gyro, I think it was NTH vs TL?
    I don't get all this hate on SnY. It is good items since it gives you Agility and Str (and if one of these is your main stat, you get huge damage output from it due to AS and damage), also it gives you movement speed and chance to Maim (iirc, it slow attack speed and move speed), and it is easy to build even if you are getting ganked alot (cheap parts)

  3. #7083
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    I have seen couple of SnY Naixes lately. Also not sure how troll they were, but just a few days ago I saw SnY gyro, I think it was NTH vs TL?
    I dunno, Yasha/Manta isn't much use on Naix, and Sange/Halberd is kind of pointless on Gyro. I guess the move speed on Naix is nice, but that's why you get phase boots. Halberd is amazing on him if you're not your team's primary carry.

    To be honest I think Vanguard needs a buff to make it worth buying. Ever since they buffed up Armlet back when, there's virtually no reason to buy Vanguard on anyone ever - Armlet does what it does, but better.

    Maybe it needs the Atos treatment or something... like +300 HP or something. Maybe make it able to be disassembled.
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  4. #7084
    Manta is core on n'aix. Infest an image and watch people blow their ults on fake-you just for real-you to pop out and eat them.

    SY is core on BB though.
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  5. #7085
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Manta is core on n'aix. Infest an image and watch people blow their ults on fake-you just for real-you to pop out and eat them.
    Nai'xception?

  6. #7086
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarevokcz View Post
    I have seen couple of SnY Naixes lately. Also not sure how troll they were, but just a few days ago I saw SnY gyro, I think it was NTH vs TL?
    Correct. Here's what Loda had to say:

    https://twitter.com/LodaBerg/status/317832884994076672
    https://twitter.com/LodaBerg/status/317836650686332929

    edit: to add to the discussion on Vanguard, Icefrog wrote a blog a bit before dota 2 came to be about balance of items and heroes. He was of the belief that perfect balance is not when every hero (or item) is viable, but rather when nothing is strong to the point of breaking said balance more than everything else. With that said, Vanguard isn't that great, but it doesn't need to be either. It works in lower tiers of match making (I used to build it all the time, and it was core on most heroes I played pre-nerf in HoN). Something not being used in the professional scene does not neccesarily equate to being up/op or even in need of a change, as the game isn't balanced solely around the professional scene.
    Last edited by Longview; 2013-03-30 at 06:13 PM.
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  7. #7087
    No comments on Magnus then, I guess.
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  8. #7088
    Over 9000! PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sistine View Post
    SnY is core on slark.... im just sayin bro
    Why would you waste money on SnY instead of Skadi?
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  9. #7089
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Why would you waste money on SnY instead of Skadi?
    Because Skadi both costs like 2k more and has a harder buildup?

  10. #7090
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    Something not being used in the professional scene does not neccesarily equate to being up/op or even in need of a change, as the game isn't balanced solely around the professional scene.
    What is it balanced around, then? Shouldn't a game designed for competition be balanced around the highest levels of play, using trickle-down for everything below that level?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-31 at 07:38 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Okuu View Post
    Because Skadi both costs like 2k more and has a harder buildup?
    And Skadi is more useful than SnY, Sange, Yasha, Manta Style, and Heaven's Halberd on Slark.

    It doesn't have to be your first item (and probably shouldn't), but a simple Orb of Venom does everything Sange does without making you waste gold. Move speed and attack speed are similarly more or less pointless on Slark because he can cross the map in 5 seconds and he gets buckets of agility from his passive.
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  11. #7091
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    And Skadi is more useful than SnY, Sange, Yasha, Manta Style, and Heaven's Halberd on Slark.
    Manta can break silence and Halberd is an excellent CC.
    SnY I could see your issue with but really come on.
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    attack speed more or less pointless
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    he gets buckets of agility from his passive.
    You what mate.

  12. #7092
    Over 9000! PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okuu View Post
    Manta can break silence and Halberd is an excellent CC.
    Yeah, Manta is always useful but I'm not really a fan of it on Slark since you can already break disables and silences with pact. Halberd is better now that it got buffed but I still think you might as well just go for a sheepstick if you need a disable on a stick.

    You what mate.
    Drums and treads give you plenty of attack speed to get the train rolling, and by time you need to do more than pounce and pact to wipe out 80% of a support's health, you're getting heaps of stats from items like skadi anyway.

    EDIT: Love it when people throw games because they're too busy farming and ganking instead of pushing. Could've won at 25 minutes, kept telling them to help me push, but nope let's go for dagon 5 on nyx instead of using that 14/0/8 lead to make a fast sheepstick for their Russian drow that isn't buying BKB.
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  13. #7093
    Quote Originally Posted by Okuu View Post
    Manta can break silence and Halberd is an excellent CC.
    SnY I could see your issue with but really come on.


    You what mate.
    building specifically IAS items on Slark is pointless due to his passive from which he gains loads of agility, and , therefore IAS.
    Sure as sure

  14. #7094
    The Lightbringer Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    building specifically IAS items on Slark is pointless due to his passive from which he gains loads of agility, and , therefore IAS.
    You can steal a lot of stats with MoM

  15. #7095
    Over 9000! PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    You can steal a lot of stats with MoM
    Yeah, but most of the time I prefer consistency. My main issue with MoM is that it makes you super squishy, but Slark can get away with it due to his regen and being able to shed stuns with his pact. I'd probably get it if I was already ahead and wanted to snowball.

    IAS isn't bad on Slark, but you generally don't want to specifically build it on him. He just likes raw stats.
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  16. #7096
    How can you say waste gold on SnY instead of Skadi then says Orb of Venom does everything Sange does? Those are both wrong statements.
    With Yasha then Sange you're able to contribute much more than hold an orb of venom then a single ultimate orb. Getting 1k items are much easier than having to save up 2.1k, twice.

  17. #7097
    Sange/Yasha is core on Bristleback.
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  18. #7098
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    building specifically IAS items on Slark is pointless due to his passive from which he gains loads of agility, and , therefore IAS.
    That he needs IAS to stack properly unless people are just letting themselves get hit.

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Yeah, Manta is always useful but I'm not really a fan of it on Slark since you can already break disables and silences with pact. Halberd is better now that it got buffed but I still think you might as well just go for a sheepstick if you need a disable on a stick.
    I'm pretty sure the point of silencing Slark in the first place is making sure he can't Pact.


    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Drums and treads give you plenty of attack speed to get the train rolling, and by time you need to do more than pounce and pact to wipe out 80% of a support's health, you're getting heaps of stats from items like skadi anyway.
    Drums and treads puts you at just barely an attack per second, something which I'd say is hardly enough.

  19. #7099
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    What is it balanced around, then? Shouldn't a game designed for competition be balanced around the highest levels of play, using trickle-down for everything below that level?
    Q: Is your goal to make everything picked the same amount of times? (from j.walsh)
    A: I don't think about it that way exactly. Sure it's good if there is a nice distribution and that is something to work towards, but really the goal in DotA's development is, first and foremost, to make the gameplay quality the best it can be. It is the combination of all the heroes, items and mechanics together that makes DotA what it is and not the individual elements alone. Sometimes that means certain things are carefully adjusted to be more frequent than others, sometimes it doesn't, but ultimately the main judge of a game's quality is not in some artificial balance metric, but in the overall gameplay quality and depth that it has.

    Source

    The game is obviously balanced around higher tiers of gameplay, anything else would be deranged. What I'm saying is that just because it isn't used frequently (or is even viable) at the professional level does not necessarily mean that it warrants a buff. Or so say IceFrog.

    Vanguard used to be a fairly good pickup back when it was introduced, around the era of 6.37, where the early days of AoE compositions were changed for fast pushing lineups where summons were common.
    Last edited by Longview; 2013-03-31 at 07:42 PM.
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  20. #7100
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    Q: Is your goal to make everything picked the same amount of times? (from j.walsh)
    A: I don't think about it that way exactly. Sure it's good if there is a nice distribution and that is something to work towards, but really the goal in DotA's development is, first and foremost, to make the gameplay quality the best it can be. It is the combination of all the heroes, items and mechanics together that makes DotA what it is and not the individual elements alone. Sometimes that means certain things are carefully adjusted to be more frequent than others, sometimes it doesn't, but ultimately the main judge of a game's quality is not in some artificial balance metric, but in the overall gameplay quality and depth that it has.

    Source

    The game is obviously balanced around higher tiers of gameplay, anything else would be deranged. What I'm saying is that just because it isn't used frequently) or even viable) at the professional level does not necessarily mean that it warrants a buff. Or so say IceFrog.

    Vanguard used to be a fairly good pickup back when it was introduced, around the era of 6.37, where the early days of AoE compositions were changed for fast pushing lineups where summons were common.
    Team Liquid miles ahead of your Icefrog knowledge http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=405620, fucking Korean time zone got me bad.

    Also you gotta be kidding me with your Slark stuff, his passive isn't even close to being a reliable source of agility until it's rank 4, and even then it's only if you're constantly fighting to keep it up. IAS is pretty much the best combat stat for Slark early on, which is why MoM is so popular. And Vanguard Viper pro only build plz no diss.

    The only good change they made to items in HoN was Sange being part of Skadi, if it were so in DotA I would actually play nothing but Mirana and go full AngryTestie every game, Linkens > SnY > Manta > Skadi. Still, SnY into Manta HH is a nice build for CK.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-03-31 at 07:48 PM.
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