1. #7321
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    You too are just kind of assuming that people who like to play something like carry Omni would do so in a game where your team already has PA and Void. I played a game few days ago where enemy team had a safe lane farming Omniknight. 16 minutes in he had Drums, Phase Boots, Vlads and Mek and completely shat on our team.

    Is it a good idea to go carry on a hero that can support when your team has several heroes that can't really bend from the carry position, at least not further than into some hybrid role? Probably not. Is it a good idea to go carry with an unusual hero when your team is lacking natural carries? Probably.
    I agree, if you have a CM, thrall, shadow demon, Omni, and Witch doctor, it may be best to have the omni play as a carry. But what Pizza was discussing earlier was when a team has "carries" and "supports" and the supports decide to play carry as well. This clearly is not the best strategic plan as your carries will likely not be able to support at all.

    Also, in your example, 3 of those items are support items on the Omni. They're not traditional "carry" items. Similarly they could have had a NP farming jungle and getting those items up asap, and then someone like a naix farming safe lane and had an even better outcome.

    @Dairaki: I don't really understand your comment. I never said you can't play these heroes in new and imaginative ways. Hell, a few pages ago I was the one saying support alch could work if need be (and then was used in a pro game). I am saying that it is likely to not be in the best interest of winning to have your "support" try to carry, when you have a "carry" on your team.
    Last edited by Keyzz; 2013-04-11 at 09:49 PM.

  2. #7322
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    I guess Keyzz never played omni before. If you stand behind the lines and cast spells, you will end with 0/0/0 score because that's how support scores works.

    And again, if enemy team goes "hey, that dazzle has desolator, we need to focus him down", they can do that shit with any hero, look, "hey, that sniper has a mjolnir, we need to focus him down". See?

    On passive-damage-boosts: why then Lina is not played as a carry? She has great IAS steroid but everyone plays her as nuke-support with tons of mana duh (in dota i actually used basher + mkb on her, it was fun).
    i again want to highlight that originally dota don't have roles for heroes, heroes was NOT made with "hey, this hero will be able to be efficient without items because others will getting them", the roles was given by players, so, technically, all heroes have carry potential

    Some heroes has better attack animation (that's why Zeus can't be an auto-attack carry, but Dazzle can be), others have better stat-growth that's why some heroes is better at using AAcs than others. But you always can stack ults, for example, so damage from your team will come from everyone, not from only one "carry" hero, or the famous Sand Kind + Lesh on hard to devastate enemy carry (so you end up with being 5 average damage heroes).

    Look at Ogre Magi and PA then:
    PA has at 16 level: 1081 health; 95-97 damage; 11 armor; 1 attack per second.
    Ogre: 1537 health; 96-102 damage; 9 armor; 0,8 attack per second.
    And look at skill set, PA has: a dagger with slow+low instant damage damage with high range;
    a blink with IAS steroid.
    an evasion.
    Huge crits
    an Ogre has: damage nuke with a stun (can proc a multicast increasing its damage and prolongs stun)
    damage DoT with slow (will be an AoE with a multicast)
    MS + IAS steroid (can proc on multiple targets if multicast)

    If you build +damage items on both heroes, both will be capable of carrying, but i guess you never seen an ogre played as auto-attack carry
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2013-04-12 at 01:45 AM.

  3. #7323
    Same goes for Venomancer. People tend to assume he should be a strict support, well , I say "feth that", and go for semi-carry build, with aghanim, lothars and manta. Ofcourse, people tend to yell but, enemy team tends to die.
    Thinking different is hard, I suppose.
    Sure as sure

  4. #7324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celltrex View Post
    That makes my stomach churn. I'd hate to be that Drow.
    I've seen pros do similar things with SD, especially mid lane. One player is known for it and has done it several times in Starladder this year, can't remember who it was, though.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 12:22 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    And again, if enemy team goes "hey, that dazzle has desolator, we need to focus him down", they can do that shit with any hero, look, "hey, that sniper has a mjolnir, we need to focus him down". See?
    You're missing the point. Dazzle is brought for more than just his autoattack, but also for Shallow Grave, his heal, and his stun, all of which have minimal cooldowns at high levels. If you're also your team's carry and get focused down quickly, not only is your team out a huge amount of right-click damage, they've also lost one of their most crucial supports.

    Sniper isn't really brought along for any reason but his right-click damage.

    On passive-damage-boosts: why then Lina is not played as a carry?
    Because people are dumb. She's much better when given farm than when played as a hard support, but she can fill both roles just fine.

    i again want to highlight that originally dota don't have roles for heroes, heroes was NOT made with "hey, this hero will be able to be efficient without items because others will getting them", the roles was given by players, so, technically, all heroes have carry potential
    And all heroes have support potential, but some heroes are clearly designed for one role or the other. What's your point? Why is Dota five years ago relevant to Dota today?

    If you build +damage items on both heroes, both will be capable of carrying, but i guess you never seen an ogre played as auto-attack carry
    Because Ogre's farming potential is much less. He's also worse at chasing, and those insane stats make him very item independent. Ogre will always do less right-click damage than PA with the same amount of gold, because PA has more steroids and is designed to carry. Ogre can carry, but his only steroid is a buff that can be given to anyone on his team - it's the same reason you see Magnus built more as a free Battle Fury for the team's actual carry than built as a carry himself.
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  5. #7325
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    And all heroes have support potential, but some heroes are clearly designed for one role or the other. What's your point? Why is Dota five years ago relevant to Dota today?
    Why do you keep repeating this? I already pointed out that many heroes have been virtually unchanged since before people started tried coming up with definitions like pusher-initiator-tanky-semicarry to pigeonhole them. If you have some insight on how the heroes are designed I'd be happy if you shared it with the rest of us, unless you're actually Icefrog in which case I could excuse you from identifying your means of knowledge acquisition.
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  6. #7326
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    By the way, as i've seen from patch notes, they tend to remove support potential from heroes who are not picked for anything except supporting (trent got his wards removed (replaced with life sapping skill), his life armor revamped (so he is not a babysit hero, and i miss the visuals from dota) and his ult damage (which had too god synergy with tides ult) was removed and duration increased).
    The only hero that i can call a pure support in dota is Techies, because that's what he is doing. But again, Tiny+Techies rocket launcher, i can't decide who gives more credit for this, tiny or techies.
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2013-04-12 at 06:58 AM.

  7. #7327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    If you have some insight on how the heroes are designed
    If the hero has no inherent steroid or skill that scales with attack speed, damage, etc, they aren't designed to be played in the carry role. They can be played as a carry, but it's a very stupid way to play them unless your team doesn't have a "real" carry available (not going to happen in CM or organized AP.) Likewise, there are heroes that are designed to be pretty awful if they don't have items, and this is usually because the majority of their skills are steroids or otherwise designed to scale with items - I'd still say Sniper is the best example of this kind of hero, very weak and useless without items, terrifying with them.

    And then you have lots of heroes that can comfortably fill either role - they have skills that make them not as dependent on items, but they still have one or two tricks that scale with items and make it worth giving them farm.

    I've never seen a design doc for Dota, but it's obvious when a hero is designed to be played or not to be played in a certain way. Or are you trying to tell me that Rhasta is a perfectly acceptable choice for your team's carry when you could pick up a Sniper, Anti-Mage, Phantom Assassin, Faceless Void, etc?

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 02:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    By the way, as i've seen from patch notes, they tend to remove support potential from heroes who are not picked for anything except supporting (trent got his wards removed (replaced with life sapping skill), his life armor revamped (so he is not a babysit hero, and i miss the visuals from dota) and his ult damage (which had too god synergy with tides ult) was removed and duration increased).
    I dunno. I still wouldn't call Treant anything resembling a proper carry or even semi-carry. You can call Dazzle and Omniknight semi-carries because they can farm reasonably effectively with the right skill builds and an item or two (Soul Ring and Purification in Omni's case, Sobi Mask and maxed Shadow Wave in Dazzle's), but Treant doesn't have that. He has phenomenal base damage (seriously, give him a quelling blade sometime and laugh) and this lets him easily get a CS lead in the early phases of the game for a couple of quick items like manaboots and drums, but he simply doesn't have the farm potential to keep up with even other semi-carries, let alone a "real" carry.

    However, the changes have made Treant less of a #5 ward bitch hero, which is always good. I actually do like the idea of eventually all heroes being designed so that they aren't given a clear role to fill; to the point that you could pick Sniper as a support role in a competitive game without people laughing at you
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  8. #7328
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post

    I dunno. I still wouldn't call Treant anything resembling a proper carry or even semi-carry. You can call Dazzle and Omniknight semi-carries because they can farm reasonably effectively with the right skill builds and an item or two (Soul Ring and Purification in Omni's case, Sobi Mask and maxed Shadow Wave in Dazzle's), but Treant doesn't have that. He has phenomenal base damage (seriously, give him a quelling blade sometime and laugh) and this lets him easily get a CS lead in the early phases of the game for a couple of quick items like manaboots and drums, but he simply doesn't have the farm potential to keep up with even other semi-carries, let alone a "real" carry.

    However, the changes have made Treant less of a #5 ward bitch hero, which is always good. I actually do like the idea of eventually all heroes being designed so that they aren't given a clear role to fill; to the point that you could pick Sniper as a support role in a competitive game without people laughing at you
    Well, i played as sniper support, and it was fun because of damage provided from headshot and assasinate was enough to bully enemy on lane, deny their farm and then secure kills and peel enemy off enchantress (i wish you could see how slow that troll was attacking her and how awesome to interrupt his auto-attacks with headshot procs).

    But on point of omniknight being semi-carry: he has retarded attack animation speed (half second i guess) which is too slow to get farm (i.e. your creeps will be denied by enemy), if you look at treant, he has even slower attack animation BUT! His damage is high and if you get a Qblade on him enemy will have to deal with almost tower damage on creeps to deny/lasthit them. Another point on treant, he don't need a shield to survive lane against ranged because he has a living armor to provide the same effect.
    And on point of using purification to farm: using purification to deal damage to lane creeps is pushing (you will be able to get at max 12 creeps before crossing river if you start from your first tower) and pushing is bad if you want to farm.

    I hope people will get rid of this meta of "supports should give health mana and wards", supports can be great source of damage.

    And by the way, i was playing an Ogre today, went to easy lane with dark seer. He started yelling at me for not taking hard line (where was already 2 people), so i decide to give him free farm by stacking jungle creeps and pulling at line. At 1 minute mark he died somewhere around the river and started yelling in [All] OMG OGRE NOOB NO HELP
    I mean, you say (in rude manner) someone to get off lane, he does it, you die and start flaming other player for doing what you said him to do?

  9. #7329
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Eh, well... not really. OD will dominate CS against most heroes, but he's not really that dangerous until he hits level 9 and takes his orb, and he doesn't reach the "okay, OD is three-hitting full HP supports" point unless he has a considerable amount of INT/mana.
    He'll still win the poke war against most people, which is all you need to do to keep your lane safe until ganks start up.
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    OD isn't super super item dependent, it's more that he needs farm/XP because he needs to have his Force Staff/Atos/Mystic Staff/Orchid/etc before the enemy carry has their BKB.
    In this case, the OD wouldn't be getting that much farm anyway so countering him with BKB becomes irrelevant. Even if they did, mana burns don't suddenly get reverted by using it.

  10. #7330
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    If the hero has no inherent steroid or skill that scales with attack speed, damage, etc, they aren't designed to be played in the carry role.
    Literally one of my favorite carries. (vs warden stack in second to last game legit as fuck)

    No, but seriously, it all depends on what you want to achieve in a game. You don't always need a hero to fill the role of a hard carry. Sniper is a good carry in a 40+ minute game. With right items he is a pretty good carry in a 25-35 minute game. Even Venge is a better carry in an under 30 minute game. You can pick the best carry in the game (whatever you feel like that might be) and lose because the enemy hybrid lineup trashes you in the mid-game. You might even lose because the two enemy hybrids can still beat your 6-slotted 800 gpm hypercarry 60 minutes into a game.

    Picking the right carry is about strategy, and almost any hero can carry with the right strategy.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-04-12 at 09:51 AM.
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  11. #7331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okuu View Post
    He'll still win the poke war against most people, which is all you need to do to keep your lane safe until ganks start up.
    He'll trash almost nearly every INT hero (Silencer will absolutely ruin him, though), but there are several picks that will laugh him out of the lane. Bloodseeker will win on CS and ignore your poking because he'll just heal from denying everything; Huskar can orbwalk you and doesn't need ANY mana; and as mentioned, Silencer does awful things to him (wait for him to imprison, hit him with Curse, watch him cry as he can't do anything to remove it.)

    In this case, the OD wouldn't be getting that much farm anyway so countering him with BKB becomes irrelevant. Even if they did, mana burns don't suddenly get reverted by using it.
    Yeah, but you can't really afford to go in first as OD unless you're really stacked. Sanity's Eclipse is more often used as a counter-initiate, or stacked on top of a teammate's initation. Even with BKB and Force Staff, OD is still really easy to focus down in a hurry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Literally one of my favorite carries. (vs warden stack in second to last game legit as fuck)
    You could maybe consider Sadist a kind of steroid; you get items, which increases how quickly you murder creeps and/or heroes. Murdering creeps and/or heroes stacks up Sadist which allows you to continue standing there, murdering creeps and/or heroes.

    No, but seriously, it all depends on what you want to achieve in a game. You don't always need a hero to fill the role of a hard carry. Sniper is a good carry in a 40+ minute game. With right items he is a pretty good carry in a 25-35 minute game. Even Venge is a better carry in an under 30 minute game. You can pick the best carry in the game (whatever you feel like that might be) and lose because the enemy hybrid lineup trashes you in the mid-game. You might even lose because the two enemy hybrids can still beat your 6-slotted 800 gpm hypercarry 60 minutes into a game.

    Picking the right carry is about strategy, and almost any hero can carry with the right strategy.
    I never disagreed with this. What I disagreed about was the that there aren't some heroes who are clearly designed to play a given role.
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  12. #7332
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    He'll trash almost nearly every INT hero (Silencer will absolutely ruin him, though), but there are several picks that will laugh him out of the lane. Bloodseeker will win on CS and ignore your poking because he'll just heal from denying everything; Huskar can orbwalk you and doesn't need ANY mana; and as mentioned, Silencer does awful things to him (wait for him to imprison, hit him with Curse, watch him cry as he can't do anything to remove it.)
    >Bloodseeker.
    >Sidelane.
    Well, OD doesn't have to do anything now because he's already won the game. Huskar would probably win poke but banishes would still ruin his CS'ing completely. As for Silencer, well, he's just an asshole to everyone.


    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Yeah, but you can't really afford to go in first as OD unless you're really stacked. Sanity's Eclipse is more often used as a counter-initiate, or stacked on top of a teammate's initation. Even with BKB and Force Staff, OD is still really easy to focus down in a hurry.
    OD isn't even supposed to be getting farm in such a lineup, all he has to do is get Eclipse off and do a banish and he's done all he has to do. Sure the enemy can focus him down if they get CC off but Eclipse is instant and banish isn't all that hard to get off on at least a somewhat important target.


    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    You could maybe consider Sadist a kind of steroid; you get items, which increases how quickly you murder creeps and/or heroes. Murdering creeps and/or heroes stacks up Sadist which allows you to continue standing there, murdering creeps and/or heroes.
    If anything, Heartstopper Aura is a steroid that scales with your not-dead stat.

  13. #7333
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    You could maybe consider Sadist a kind of steroid; you get items, which increases how quickly you murder creeps and/or heroes. Murdering creeps and/or heroes stacks up Sadist which allows you to continue standing there, murdering creeps and/or heroes.
    I assume his steroids are Heartstopper Aura and Reaper's Scythe, 'cause these abilities scale so well into mid and lategame.
    Sure as sure

  14. #7334
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okuu View Post
    >Bloodseeker.
    >Sidelane.
    Well, OD doesn't have to do anything now because he's already won the game. Huskar would probably win poke but banishes would still ruin his CS'ing completely. As for Silencer, well, he's just an asshole to everyone.
    Huskar will easily win on CS by simply forcing OD out of lane.

    As for BS being on side lane... why wouldn't you mid OD? It's the only lane he's particularly effective in.
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  15. #7335
    How do you counter Gyro? Everytime I see one on a side lane, he gets Flak Cannon and just pushes from the very start, while also easily harrassing everyone in a huge radius with almost no risk. 6-7 minutes in, our lane is totally screwed, he gets all the money and early items he wants, gg. Of course, early ganking is the obvious answer if he's not guarded by Omni, Dazzle and/or a good disabler, but what if he is or if your mid-laner is shit and the other lane is too busy? I'm only talking about pubs with randoms now. I mean, I've tried this stupid strat myself and was quite impressed by its effectiveness.

  16. #7336
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Huskar will easily win on CS by simply forcing OD out of lane.
    Maybe level 1-2 but once OD starts getting his stacks up his damage is going to be insane, it'll also be easy as hell to stack with Huskar's short range.
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    As for BS being on side lane... why wouldn't you mid OD? It's the only lane he's particularly effective in.
    If he's solo mid he's clearly not a farmless support. I also think you underestimate his effectiveness.

  17. #7337
    Most of these people arguing about this topic have gone so FAR off topic that it is comical. Charge Me Doctor had been going on and on about Omni being a carry, and then has a post saying how he's a bad carry because of slow attack animation and that treant is better for it. I honestly have no clue what you are talking about.

    Also, my point about focus firing was that if dazzle is your right clicker as well as having the crucial support spells, then a team will just initiate on him, stun him before he gets off grave, and gg. If your sniper was your right clicker, while they are on dazzle, sniper will be wrecking them. If they go on sniper, dazzle can heal him and grave him. It makes your opponent make a choice on who to prioritize. If you have one hero with the most important spells, and the most important items, it becomes obvious who to kill first, and then your team is dead.

    Anyone is free to play any hero as a carry if they'd like. And you can play any hero as a support if you'd like. Playing sniper as a support.... I don't even know what to say about this. If it makes you happy, go for it. I'm sure it doesn't make your team happy though. And it's not like this is a team game or anything.

    This doesn't mean that new builds or strategies are discouraged, some are just obviously a bad idea. It's like people play a game where an omni gets farm and does great, and think that's automatically a brilliant idea. I'm just shocked out how naive or foolish some people are. (Omni getting farm isnt bad at all, but your team would be better off having him use that farm on things like vlads, mek, etc rather than an mkb or daedalus).

    And Hermanni, your post about picking the right carry for the right strategy is accurate, but has nothing to do with what is being discussed. Sure if you want to push early, you might pick a gyro as your carry, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't pick a veno as my carry for a short, medium, long, extra long, jumbosized, or magnum length game.

    I also don't understand the posts about how Dota heroes were designed 5 years ago and how it translates into what their role is now. Whether or not they were designed with a certain role in mind (I'm sure they were, but I guess everyone is BFF with Icefrog and Eul), they have roles that they are better or worse at. Maybe they were designed that way, or maybe players just figured out how to maximize the heroes potential. Also, not sure why people mention Dota 5 years ago as if that was the beginning of Dota. Even back in RoC dota, certain heroes were support (PD who had a heal, teleport, and chakra) and some were carries (Jug, titan, dk, naix, bf, troll, etc.)
    Last edited by Keyzz; 2013-04-12 at 04:58 PM.

  18. #7338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okuu View Post
    Maybe level 1-2 but once OD starts getting his stacks up his damage is going to be insane, it'll also be easy as hell to stack with Huskar's short range.
    Huskar will win any manfight by a landslide due to Berserker's Blood and spear damage. Spears do an enormous amount of damage and only need to be refreshed once every several seconds.

    Huskar also gets an automatic kill on OD if he hits 6 before OD has Force Staff or a similar item - force the imprison, jump on OD, hit hit hit dead. OD's ulti won't do enough damage at 6 to compensate.
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  19. #7339
    Nature's Prophet best hero in the game hands down yea!

  20. #7340
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Huskar will win any manfight by a landslide due to Berserker's Blood and spear damage. Spears do an enormous amount of damage and only need to be refreshed once every several seconds.

    Huskar also gets an automatic kill on OD if he hits 6 before OD has Force Staff or a similar item - force the imprison, jump on OD, hit hit hit dead. OD's ulti won't do enough damage at 6 to compensate.
    I'm pretty sure you're dead as Huskar if you jump an OD at level 6 and he has 2 or 3 Astrals on you already.

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