1. #881
    High Overlord Ultraviolet Harmonies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waervyn View Post
    I'm really new to DOTA2 (as in, never ever played it), but does this mean it's actually less well balanced than people claim it to be (if many champions will be considered 'bad').

    I keep reading 2 points about DOTA2:

    -Less 'set in stone' meta
    - More balanced.

    However, your statement kind of negates these. At least the way I read it is that there's way stronger picks than others. Is this the case, or is it just a case of counterpicking correctly?

    Thanks!
    The metagame is often described as purely how the majority of professional teams prefer to play the game. I don't necessarily agree with the usage of metagame, and would prefer to use "current popular strategies". With certain heroes out of the pool, some strats work out more often, and are less likely to get countered. That's why you see trends. These can be vastly different in the different scenes (chinese metagame tends to favour turtling and letting one carry get superfarmed, for example). You see heroes like Dark Seer, Windrunner and Natures Prophet being frequently picked and banned because they fit in incredibly well with current popular strategies in the professional scene.

    However, this does seldom translate directly into public matchmaking games, unless you're running five-stacks or playing -cm. People pick what they want to play, often disregarding the opposing team and the own team. People stay in lane when they more optimally could gank. You can see a nice graph over here, where you can see that Alchemist is currently the hero that wins the least amount of games, paired with his low number of games played (which is obviously skewed due to certain heroes being around for longer). This doesn't mean that Alchemist is useless, or will lose your team the game. It might, but it doesn't mean that a Crystal Maiden/Lina/Alchemist isn't one hell of a trilane. As the hero pool grows larger, some strats will be easier to counter against (and harder to ban for). That's just how DotA works, with it being sort of ever-evolving.

    Some heroes (Lycan, Ursa) take a lot of coordination and effort to stop. This makes him very powerful in public matchmaking games, where there usually is a shortage of communication and coordination. This doesn't neccersarily carry over to the professional scene. I would still want to argue that DotA2 is more balanced than its competitors.

    But hey, that's just my opinion, you can find people contradicting every point I made everywhere.

  2. #882
    Quote Originally Posted by Waervyn View Post
    I'm really new to DOTA2 (as in, never ever played it), but does this mean it's actually less well balanced than people claim it to be (if many champions will be considered 'bad').

    I keep reading 2 points about DOTA2:

    -Less 'set in stone' meta
    - More balanced.

    However, your statement kind of negates these. At least the way I read it is that there's way stronger picks than others. Is this the case, or is it just a case of counterpicking correctly?

    Thanks!
    Out of the 80 heroes that are currently ported, only 2 are pretty much never used in competitive play. Incidentally, they're both pretty strong in low-mid level pubs. In competitive play, some heroes are banned rather often (but not always, which is what would happen to any actually overpowered hero) and there's a pool of a ~dozen heroes or so that are banned and picked in many games, but usually because they either are heroes that fit into the current meta well or because they're really versatile in terms of what role they can fill and where they can be laned, which means that teams who pick them up in the first round of picks don't give away much of their overall strategy to the other team before the second round of picks & bans.

    Usually heroes that fill the relatively same role have very different strenghts & weaknesses, so you can't flat out say 'X is better than Y.'

    And people give too much value to hero counters, KotL is far from being the only way to stop a Chen. I don't see any of the heroes that are missing alone having a massive impact in the game, not in my ordinary pub game or any pro game I watch (except Techies, that will ruin many of my games.)
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-06-16 at 11:03 PM.
    Manni of Paragon. Moderator of Dota 2 subforum - The golden rule: Listen to Lysah. Seriously.

  3. #883
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultraviolet Harmonies View Post
    stuff
    Good explanation, I agree.

    As far as the stats.dota2 thing goes, you have to keep an open mind when looking at the data. Namely, the vast majority of games are being played by low skill players. If you look at the trend of heroes who win versus heroes who do not, you'll notice that when you sort by win% you're also sorting by relative difficulty of play. Top heroes? Ursa, Leoric, Lycan, Zeus, NS? A bunch of heroes who absolutely crush low level players who don't ward, aren't good at farming/building, and are extremely easy to gank. Alchemist? An extremely strong carry, but needs a ton of farm, won't be played very well by "ordinary pubs." How many of Alch's losses are by low skill players? And how many of Ursa's wins? It's something to keep in mind.

    What would be more interesting is if the system could track only players at top tier MMR and see how they, and only they, perform with each hero.

    And as an aside, I find it hilarious that PA already has more games played than Tree. People really need to get over her.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-06-17 at 12:18 AM.
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  4. #884
    Old God PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    I don't get why people aren't playing Tree. He's probably my favorite hero so far... fantastic aura for his team, he can let people completely dominate jungles with his Q (60 second duration!), and his ult... haha, his ult. It's like Ravage, except it lasts 5 years.

    Him and Doomy have been the heroes I've been playing the most. Doomy's kind of weird, it feels like he doesn't have a designated goal beyond "Doom the guy with the disables."
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
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  5. #885
    Bloodsail Admiral Waervyn's Avatar
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    Bwah, kind of bummed.
    I'd really like to try the game, but didn't get invited for beta. Now I can get an invite...but I have to pay for it! You get some cosmetic stuff, but I don't know if I'd even like the game (kinda burned out on LoL because I started stressing myself once I got in higher ELO, as I became too serious about it)

  6. #886
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Him and Doomy have been the heroes I've been playing the most. Doomy's kind of weird, it feels like he doesn't have a designated goal beyond "Doom the guy with the disables."
    Doom is shock carry, he can complete a 5 core build in 25-30 minutes easily. Build carry and eat an alpha wolf as soon as you can. With a few cheap items (armlet/MoM) you can easily start absolutely crushing people, and there's not much anyone can do to stop doom from farming. I usually finish 6 core around 30 minutes on him, at which point I have max movespeed/900 crits/3600 health. At that point in the game most heroes have 1200 health so you're pretty much 2/3 shotting people while being insanely hard to take down yourself. And you always have doom if you really need it to kill a hero like AM or morph or just stop some CCs.

    Most people used to play doom as support casters, but I feel this is wrong. The alpha wolf buffs are SO so damn good for him and his team, he can easily explode the damage potential from his auto attacks. Of course, if you happen to be doom in a team of carries anyway, you can always use the free gold from devour to build items like sheeper/shivas as well. Doom is easily my favorite of the strength carries, I just wish there was more room for him on current meta teams.

    tl;dr
    Lucifer's designated goal is obvious! Murder all the heroes \o/
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-06-17 at 09:43 AM.
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  7. #887
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I don't get why people aren't playing Tree. He's probably my favorite hero so far... fantastic aura for his team, he can let people completely dominate jungles with his Q (60 second duration!), and his ult... haha, his ult. It's like Ravage, except it lasts 5 years.

    Him and Doomy have been the heroes I've been playing the most. Doomy's kind of weird, it feels like he doesn't have a designated goal beyond "Doom the guy with the disables."
    Tree was so OP hero that it was banned from tournaments. I don't know it's current state tho a hero that I hardly play so I don't check it's change notes that much.

    I mostly see doom is being tank/initiator in games.

  8. #888
    Quote Originally Posted by Waervyn View Post
    Bwah, kind of bummed.
    I'd really like to try the game, but didn't get invited for beta. Now I can get an invite...but I have to pay for it! You get some cosmetic stuff, but I don't know if I'd even like the game (kinda burned out on LoL because I started stressing myself once I got in higher ELO, as I became too serious about it)
    There are usually people around on Reddit or in the main dota chats in-game looking to sell invites for 2-3 chest keys (You know, like TF2. They cost 2 EUR each)

  9. #889
    Bloodsail Admiral Waervyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zefie View Post
    There are usually people around on Reddit or in the main dota chats in-game looking to sell invites for 2-3 chest keys (You know, like TF2. They cost 2 EUR each)
    Thanks (I don't play TF2 though, so I didn't know about them).
    How do those people get their invites? Do they get a certain amount of invites when they got invited to the beta or how does it work?

    Thanks again!

  10. #890
    Quote Originally Posted by Waervyn View Post
    Thanks (I don't play TF2 though, so I didn't know about them).
    How do those people get their invites? Do they get a certain amount of invites when they got invited to the beta or how does it work?

    Thanks again!
    They used to give out an extra invite to everyone who got into beta until they noticed people were selling them and stopped for some reason like they weren't expecting it. It's also possible they won a giveaway when they already had a key or something I can't say I'm very sure.

  11. #891
    So I'm totally new to DotA2, but I've played LoL for around a year now so ..

    Where can I get some guideso n how the game works basically? You know, where they explain denying and jungling in Dota etc. Just some nice guides like you would find on solomid etc. about the mechanics and important parts off the game. I hate jumping into games like this having 0 idea about champions, items, and mechanics you don't see in LoL.


    Cheerios.

  12. #892

  13. #893
    Quote Originally Posted by Led ++ View Post
    So I'm totally new to DotA2, but I've played LoL for around a year now so ..

    Where can I get some guideso n how the game works basically? You know, where they explain denying and jungling in Dota etc. Just some nice guides like you would find on solomid etc. about the mechanics and important parts off the game. I hate jumping into games like this having 0 idea about champions, items, and mechanics you don't see in LoL.


    Cheerios.
    http://www.dotafire.com/dota-2/guide...uide-to-dota-8

    Think that explains it pretty well

  14. #894
    Warchief Kuthe's Avatar
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    Someone, everyone.
    Why has this game turned to trash, and 95% of the games I now join end up with a leaver within 10mins of it starting?
    You know how annoying this is.
    HEAPS!
    It's worse than LoL, and I was hoping this game would make MOBA's good again.

    Making it F2P on release is such a silly bad idea, leavers leavers leavers. GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAwhoawhdoahwaowhdqaowhfosfhaowdhaoembhlgsawdiaw h!
    We stopped searching for monsters under our beds when we realized that they were inside us.

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  15. #895
    The Patient Igloo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Led ++ View Post
    So I'm totally new to DotA2, but I've played LoL for around a year now so ..

    Where can I get some guideso n how the game works basically? You know, where they explain denying and jungling in Dota etc. Just some nice guides like you would find on solomid etc. about the mechanics and important parts off the game. I hate jumping into games like this having 0 idea about champions, items, and mechanics you don't see in LoL.

    Cheerios.
    I'd recommend DotaCinema's Guides for individual heroes and a few other things. Purge also has some terrific guides for beginners.
    Mage - Retired

  16. #896
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuthe View Post
    Someone, everyone.
    Why has this game turned to trash, and 95% of the games I now join end up with a leaver within 10mins of it starting?
    Because valve refuses to put forth any resources at all into ensuring a good community. The current report player feature is really there just to make us all feel slightly better, doesn't really do a whole lot. And the built in penalty for abandoning games is little to nothing.

    It is definitely annoying, the community has regressed back to its early TDA days as far as rage quitting and just overall DCing goes.

    They should also get the mentor system working so we won't need tons of guides on the interwebs for new players. Playing a hundred games with Zefie has made him way better than he would have been on his own reading guides, in my opinion. He can feel free to come and agree with me on this.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
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  17. #897
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    He can feel free to come and agree with me on this.
    I agree with you on this.

  18. #898
    Thanks bro <3
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  19. #899
    So does anyone know where i can get a key or happen to have a spare one?

  20. #900
    Buy one (and some cosmetic items) in the DotA shop for 30 EUR or from people on Reddit for the equivalent of 4-6 EUR.

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