1. #10241
    The Lightbringer Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    Why would you? Repeating how pros play would be incredibly dangerous in most pubgames.

    There are some overarching trends that make sense, like support Naga and fun tricks like pulling creepwave, but so much of what they do needs to be understood before you go ahead and try and repeat it.
    Yeah, often you expect people juking your sunstrikes when returning home at low health by queing move commands, but no, they don't

  2. #10242
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Yeah, often you expect people juking your sunstrikes when returning home at low health by queing move commands, but no, they don't
    Admittedly, a lot of stuff pros did in the past is now simply common knowledge. But some things are just strategies, like trilaning, that requires a bit more tact than "three dudes in a lane"

    As an example, Lifestealer+Jakiro+Tidehunter trilane is good against a fair amount of lanes, I imagine. Solo Dark Seer is not one of them.

  3. #10243
    Over 9000! PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    No ones ability to support reduced by playing as a carry
    Yeah. So remind me, again - why are people wetting their pants over someone playing Abbadon as a carry, then?
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  4. #10244
    The Lightbringer Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Yeah. So remind me, again - why are people wetting their pants over someone playing Abbadon as a carry, then?
    Because any kind of CC on him and he is not carry any more and he can't do anyshit about it without BKB but "carry abbadon" don't build BKB for w/e reason

  5. #10245
    CC on him is CC not on others, mission complete.
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  6. #10246
    Epic!
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    This is why I play CM for the passive global taunt

  7. #10247
    The Lightbringer Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    CC on him is CC not on others, mission complete.
    CC on others removed by shield. Mission complete. But in that situation, we have reliable carry with escape and/or attack boost, but not that crappy abbadon that tries to catch freaking dark seer who keeps hasting himself.

  8. #10248
    Over 9000! PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Because any kind of CC on him and he is not carry any more and he can't do anyshit about it without BKB but "carry abbadon" don't build BKB for w/e reason
    Why do you keep acting like Abbadon is Anti-Mage.

    All of you people need to get it through your thick skulls that "carry" does not mean "afk farming 800gpm Anti-Mage." It just means someone who is given XP and gold priority - your 1, your 2, and probably your 3. That's it. Leshrac can be a "carry." Sand King can be a "carry." Goddamned cunting Crystal Maiden can be a "carry." Role is not defined by anything other than gold and XP priority. How many fucking times do we have to fucking say that?

    Abbadon's sole purpose in life is to be a colossal pain in the ass. He can't die, he's more immune to death than Leoric and equally as immune as Dragon Knight. You run up and whack people with Frostmourne and/or Sange and/or Orb of Venom and keep whacking them until they die, all the while giving a free permanent steroid to your team's real damage output and shitting aphotic shield blasts everywhere.

    Every spell spent on Abbadon is a spell that isn't being spent on his team, and given that Abbadon CANNOT FUCKING DIE, is a "wasted" spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    CC on others removed by shield. Mission complete.
    Then why in the motherfuck are you picking Abbadon? Pick motherfucking Omniknight and be a better Abbadon than Abbadon himself could ever hope to fucking be. If you want to hide in the back like a bitch, pick Omniknight because Repel completely, totally fucking shits on Aphotic Shield in every conceivable way except for maybe peeling off shit like Bestmaster Roar or Reverse Polarity.

    An instant purge versus a 12 second BKB with a 2 second effective cooldown. A heal for fuck all that only hits one target for garbage damage if used as a nuke, versus a heal for 360 that obliterates anything nearby. A move speed slow buff placer on a single target versus a permanent fucking [i]aura[i] that slows move AND attack speeds on everything in range. Personal invulnerability versus invulnerability for all teammates AND creeps in range.

    Guess what? Fucking Omniknight is a better support than Abbadon could ever fucking hope to be, and he's still better played as a carry, because your Degen Aura or Frostmoure are doing precisely fuck-all if you're hiding in the back because you have no items and no gold.

    Abbadon is at his best when he's up front, being a complete nuisance, and whacking people to death.

    Literally the only reason you would ever pick Abbadon over Omniknight is if you can make effective use of Borrowed Time, and support Abbadon CANNOT FUCKING DO THAT.

    Who the fuck cares if Dark Seer surges himself away? Guess what? HE'S RUNNING THE FUCK AWAY, BRO. Guess what someone that's RUNNING THE FUCK AWAY isn't doing? Fighting!

    They have a tower? Fuck them, ignore the tower, you have death immunity. They have a lot of stuns? Fuck them, your death immunity doesn't give a flying rat fuck about stuns, or silences, or ensnares, or literally fucking anything, because Borrowed Time removes fucking everything, even motherfucking Doom when it activates. They have Axe? Who the fuck cares, Axe has to be level 16 before he can reliably kill you before you get SOME kind of healing off of your ulti, pushing you outside the kill threshold.

    Seriously, it's like you don't fucking understand how ridiculously good Borrowed Time is, and how good it lets Abbadon be. People talk about Leoric not caring about dying, but Abbadon cares even less because he CAN'T die unless his team completely abandons him, and even if they do, if you aren't a fucking retard and have built Abbadon as a carry, he'll still probably bring someone down with him, 1v5 or not.

    You're talking about Aphotic Shield as if by building Abbadon as a carry, he can't use it on teammates. He can, and he will because Abbadon himself has BORROWED TIME to stay alive with. Did you forget about that whole "When activated, most negative buffs will be removed" thing? BM ult, Magnus ult, BR ult, fucking Doom ult, ALL OF THAT SHIT is REMOVED when it activates, and it activates auto-fucking-matically if you happen to get close to dying, and it costs nothing, AND it has a 40 fucking second cooldown at level 16.

    40 seconds. That means every 40 seconds, you can do whatever the fuck you want, utterly free of fear of reprisal, because you are guaranteed to not die. Push when the entire enemy team is missing, who gives a fuck, you can just walk the fuck away and they can't do shit about it, because you can't fucking die.

    And consider: what the fuck is little scared bitch Anti-Mage or PL or whoever the fuck is trendy right now, I can't be bothered to give two shits, gonna do when it's 20 minutes in and you're pushing the fuck out of towers because you're motherfucking Abbadon and fucking towers mean nothing to your studly ass? Cry OP? Sure, Anti-Mage is going to fold you like a cheap plastic chair at 45 minutes in, but you aren't going to let the game go to 45 minutes because you're fucking Abbadon and you aren't retarded and you're playing to the hero's strengths rather than his "I'm not actually Omniknight" weaknesses.

    Shit, go into his fucking jungle and take it over. What's he gonna do, fight back? Hah! You can't die, remember? But he sure as fuck can if he thinks he can fight you. Shit, even Ursa might not be able to take Abbadon, and Ursa's a better carry than virtually every other trending pick except maybe, like, Alchemist or something.

    But where was I? Oh, right - just because you're being a big, manly carry Abbadon doesn't mean you somehow lose the ability to cast your shield on teammates. It has a 6 fucking second cooldown. Who the shit cares, throw it around like crazy. Throw it on yourself when you run in. After the enemy team wastes its shit on you (remember, it's all wasted because YOU CANNOT FUCKING DIE, I can't stress that part enough), the cooldown's up and you can throw it at your teammates or creeps or fucking donkey because, hey, they just used their best shit just trying to keep you from lighting up that asshole Jakiro trying to hide in the back, and anything they have left or coming off cooldown... well, they can let you kill someone, or they can use it on your teammates, get it removed, and let you kill someone anyway.

    Seriously.

    Stop fucking playing Abbadon as a support. He's a garbage support. If you want him to be a little ward bitch support, at least pick Omniknight because Omni is better at that sort of thing.
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  9. #10249
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Because any kind of CC on him and he is not carry any more and he can't do anyshit about it without BKB but "carry abbadon" don't build BKB for w/e reason
    You're forgetting that Abaddon can shield out of any snares and hit Borrowed Time to get out of any stun or silence (not that he has to care much about just silences), which makes BKB quite redundant. I don't know why so many people seem forget that you can actually use your ultimate at any time instead of getting fingered to death because they didn't want to use it 'too early.'

    Abaddon is a better support than Omni in the first 5-15 minutes of the game in most situations, and not too long after that he becomes quite redundant. Unless you essentially win the game in 15-20 minutes or start farming for real by the mid game your hero falls off faster than almost any other support.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-08-27 at 06:36 AM.
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  10. #10250
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Stop fucking playing Abbadon as a support. He's a garbage support. If you want him to be a little ward bitch support, at least pick Omniknight because Omni is better at that sort of thing.
    hows he not the single best trilane support hero in the pool again
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  11. #10251
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    hows he not the single best trilane support hero in the pool again
    Undying is better. Lich is better. Subjective opinions of course.
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  12. #10252
    The Lightbringer Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    You're forgetting that Abaddon can shield out of any snares and hit Borrowed Time to get out of any stun or silence (not that he has to care much about just silences), which makes BKB quite redundant. I don't know why so many people seem forget that you can actually use your ultimate at any time instead of getting fingered to death because they didn't want to use it 'too early.'

    Abaddon is a better support than Omni in the first 5-15 minutes of the game in most situations, and not too long after that he becomes quite redundant. Unless you essentially win the game in 15-20 minutes or start farming for real by the mid game your hero falls off faster than almost any other support.
    He is one of the best supports for first 5-15 minutes in the game, that's why he is so good at trilanes, because there is only first 5-15 minutes that matters.
    If i remember correctly, this shield can even remove flame lasso, so if enemy has only 1 hero to initiate he can be very helpful. But Abbadon as a carry? I haven't seen it for very very long time. Well, if you don't count these 60:10 games where even CM has BKB, aghs and blink.
    He has no skills to scale with items, just attacks, it's stupid to call him a carry because he can' be killed. The hell, i call Dazzle carry then, he has heal, death immunity, slow+ministun and armor boost/repelent

    Also, his (Abbadon) counters are very niche picks (axe and slark) so he can be cool about being 1-shotted. But again, all his presence in teamfights is purging shields, MS boost and weak heal.

    And the thing about his ultimate is that he can't control it all the time. Yes, you can use it to purge from yourself CC but then you can't save your ass (if it is needed). But on other side, if getting rid of this CC will secure the teamfight, you won't even need to stay alive. And your enemy have an option to pop it on you prematurely to be sure that you won't be getting away in next 40 seconds.

  13. #10253
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Undying is better. Lich is better. Subjective opinions of course.
    neither fit in universally in any trilane as well as abaddon do

    undying maybe

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    He is one of the best supports for first 5-15 minutes in the game, that's why he is so good at trilanes, because there is only first 5-15 minutes that matters.
    no

    its because if you trilane (esp offensive) your supports will be underleveled like hell

    unless the game ends at 15 minutes, i would say that the time after 15 minutes does matter
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  14. #10254
    Scarab Lord Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Support in pub games:
    Your team won, you get no recognizion.
    Your team lost, you get all the blame.

    And people wonder why supports are rare?
    Worst thing in the entire game is to be the only support on your team, all your gold used on wards and courier, unless you get assist kills you're basically gonna end up being a free kill for the enemy team. So much fun being level 13 with brown boots and magic wand.
    Honestly unless your team has 2 supports you almost shouldn't bother, it's such a unrewarding playstyle and it's HARD to do well.
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  15. #10255
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Support in pub games:
    Your team won, you get no recognizion.
    Your team lost, you get all the blame.

    And people wonder why supports are rare?
    Worst thing in the entire game is to be the only support on your team, all your gold used on wards and courier, unless you get assist kills you're basically gonna end up being a free kill for the enemy team. So much fun being level 13 with brown boots and magic wand.
    Honestly unless your team has 2 supports you almost shouldn't bother, it's such a unrewarding playstyle and it's HARD to do well.
    Yup, I would never support in solo queue to be honest. Supporting is a massive waste of time if you don't have good teammates. You can ward everywhere, stack every camp fifty times, but if your team doesn't know how to pay attention and farm nothing is going to be accomplished anyway. I dislike playing supports in general, but in solo queue it's not worth it at all. No matter what hero I random I play them as a carry, Lion, CM, Dazzle, Ancient Apparition, doesn't matter, they're a carry if I get them without friends in the game.

  16. #10256
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    The hell, i call Dazzle carry then.
    Dazzle is a great carry. As a matter of fact most heroes are, if played right.


    Saying you need an attack steroid skill to be a carry is downright ridiculous. And saying Abaddon has none is even more so. Even if you don't consider the spammable CC dispels and heals from shield and BT to be 'carry' traits, you'll still have to consider that Abaddon has good base MS, great attack animation, 40 IAS from Frostmourne, 20% Slow and 15% MS boost on top of his great base. More things to make you stick to your target than most melee carries can say. And 40 IAS isn't a joke, a lot of strength carries suffer from not getting enough IAS into their builds early.
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  17. #10257
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Frostmourne is not his steroid - it's more like a team-wide buff, which you can (and should) apply even if you play Abaddon as a poor support with nothing but brown boots and sticks.

  18. #10258
    A little song for us supports, and also us who enjoy CM (and a little puck :P):
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  19. #10259
    Quote Originally Posted by Kjalar View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Frostmourne is not his steroid - it's more like a team-wide buff, which you can (and should) apply even if you play Abaddon as a poor support with nothing but brown boots and sticks.
    So are Empowering Haste, Howl, Stygian Desolator and such, but these effects all exists to first and foremost buff yourself, the fact that everyone else benefit from them is a bonus. If you insist that Frostmourne is not a steroid, then neither are Trueshot Aura, Presence of the Dark Lord, Battle Trance, Amplify Damage, Natural Order... Well, you get the point.

    Your ability to actually be in the middle of a fight as an underfarmed, underleveled support is much more limited than that of a carry Abaddon, and when you don't actually deal damage you're also putting yourself at a considerable risk just to apply Frostmourne. You may still not die easily, but your ability to stay in the fight and avoid CC will be reduced greatly. When you're support, the decision on whether or not your should be in the middle of a fight may not be an easy one, but when you're carry it will be almost impossible to go wrong.
    Manni of Paragon. Moderator of Dota 2 subforum - The golden rule: Listen to Lysah. Seriously.

  20. #10260
    My choice of words was bad - Frostmourne is a steroid for a carry Abaddon, no doubt. My point is that a support Abaddon can provide it just as well, which means you can't just say "well, Abaddon has Frostmourne (steroid), hence he's a good carry", which you kinda implied in your previous post.

    As for the second part of your post - that's true, but like Lysah says, every CC and damage soaked by Abaddon = less CC and damage soaked by his team and I think it's a lot better if your tank is one of your supports, which lets real damage dealers (like AM, Gyro, Sven, Luna or anything else that can beat the crap out of the entire team if left alone in a team fight), well, deal damage.

    Anyway, I'm not trying to argue on how Abaddon should be played. I'm totally cool with even CM being played as a carry if that results in a won game. Just arguing about semantics, I guess.

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