[Megathread] DotA 2

[LiiLoSNK]

Force staff and ghost are both a lot cheaper than nec3 and they disable N'aix. Keep trying. Maybe after N'aix gets a half a dozen buffs you will have any idea what you're talking about. But, hey, I'm sure if you just spit up whatever you see on twitch you will at least look right to the hive mind at places like reddit.

They counter SK as well, genius? You are so completely dense it's becoming hilarious. I'm not saying N'aix is the best hero in the game. I'm saying he's a far better pick than SK because of how much more versatile he is during early-mid-and end game.

Good thing a 4 second physical immunity is the same thing as taking SK's ult away, or your argument would look pathetic.

[Deleted]

I only think Naix is a good pick when they have a blink hero (Puck for example) or people like storm, Wisp or furion - instant 2 / 3 man gank from out of nowhere.


SK does not provide this feature which is why he isn't picked, and while his stun is good you will probably only get to use it once in a team fight if the enemy team actually counter picks you, and seeing how we are talking about a pro game and Necrobook is pretty core atm, that seems very likely.

I mean you could rush a BKB as SK but if that's the case then he won't be very useful for awhile, while Naix gets a free bkb.

[LiiLoSNK]

I only think Naix is a good pick when they have a blink hero (Puck for example) or people like storm, Wisp or furion - instant 2 / 3 man gank from out of nowhere.


SK does not provide this feature which is why he isn't picked, and while his stun is good you will probably only get to use it once in a team fight if the enemy team actually counter picks you, and seeing how we are talking about a pro game and Necrobook is pretty core atm, that seems very likely.

I mean you could rush a BKB as SK but if that's the case then he won't be very useful for awhile, while Naix gets a free bkb.

Apparently it takes months of reddit stalking and twitch stream lurking to be able to realize such information.

[Lysah]

They counter SK as well, genius?

Yes, because you can force staff while stunned herp

[Deleted]

Yes, because you can force staff while stunned herp

SK has a really slow stun tho, easy to Ghost and then force staff away, same problem with Sven atm.

[LiiLoSNK]

Yes, because you can force staff while stunned herp

Yes cause you can get your slow stun off on the magic immune herp

Saddest argument I've ever had, only because you're actually serious.

[PizzaSHARK]

I mean you could rush a BKB as SK but if that's the case then he won't be very useful for awhile, while Naix gets a free bkb.

He'd be roughly equivalent to a Gyro that rushes BKB as first item after boots+drum, maybe a little less effective (but much harder to kill) than a Luna that rushes BKB.

[Lysah]

SK has a really slow stun tho, easy to Ghost and then force staff away, same problem with Sven atm.

It is a problem with Sven, but mostly because Sven relies on the window of time he gets with God's Strength and if he loses that he's out of the fight even if he's alive. Just like N'aix relies on the brief window of time he gets with rage and wounds. Leoric doesn't rely on any window of time, he will still crit for 900 damage and he still has 5000 ehp times 2.

Yes cause you can get your slow stun off on the magic immune herp

Saddest argument I've ever had, only because you're actually serious.

Weren't you done talking to me 12 posts ago? I'm actually going to actually move on from this unless you can start discussing things like an adult.


Anyway, if you want to look at counters for Leoric look at AM. He has the mobility to avoid being focused by Leoric so he can afford to duel him and the sheer speed at which a manta rips away mana will hurt a lot. The biggest issue with nec3 and lion and bane is that they simply don't drain enough mana quickly enough for a late game Leoric. You end up with 900 mana in the 20s and a 400 or 500 mana burn just does not make even a little difference. And you won't have that nec3 at 20 minutes so you can't pretend like it counters him early game and you can just farm him while he's little. AM can rip apart a mana pool AND get out, which is unique to him, because while he still can't toe Leoric for even one life, Leoric can be CCed and kited to death once he is out of mana.

Of course, this is all still assuming that Leoric does, in fact, NOT have a team, which we all know will not be true in "real games." The whole point of the hero is that he can just walk up to your t3 and start smacking it and you have no choice but to engage him, which gives his team a free opportunity to set up on you even though you should have the bottleneck advantage. Since you are FORCED to use your CCs on Leoric to stop him from taking base/killing your team his ally Enigma can just blink and laugh at the free 4 man black hole. What else in the game offers this much power? One thing, and that's aegis, and you can all stop feigning ignorance of how ridiculously powerful aegis is. Keep trying to write Leoric's ult off as nonexistant because 1 or 2 sources of mana burn exist in the game and there's nothing Leoric can do about those things, I can wait until Icefrog gives him 3 base damage and he becomes first pick/ban and everyone starts coming up with excuses about how the extremely minor buff made the difference.

[Deleted]

He'd be roughly equivalent to a Gyro that rushes BKB as first item after boots+drum, maybe a little less effective (but much harder to kill) than a Luna that rushes BKB.

Things is luna is a much better farmer and team fighter than SK, while he is probably the best 1v1 carry, that doesn't do much good when a gyro and luna can kill your supports without even targeting them - but that's a problem for most mele carries.

I just think SK wouldn't be useful enough in a pro game, easy to drain mana and easy to avoid / block his stun and he doesn't have a gap closer which is always a big kick in the balls to mele carries.


@Lysah - I've not really ahd problems with sven in that regard, normally plenty or time to take out 1 or 2 people with his ulti up. But I build sven with blink / shadowblade to its easy to get on top of people fast. Granted SB wouldn't work in a pro game or if the other team wasn't dumb.

[LiiLoSNK]

He'd be roughly equivalent to a Gyro that rushes BKB as first item after boots+drum, maybe a little less effective (but much harder to kill) than a Luna that rushes BKB.

SK with treads bkb does zero damage and has 1 stun. Gyro with treads bkb only has high damage/slow call down, barrage, flack cannon to damage anyone in site, and a ranged stun.

Yea he's totally on gyro's level for early game. Just SLIGHTLY less helpful in team fights. Just barely.

SK Totally on par with luna though. Her ult sux bro.

- - - Updated - - -

It is a problem with Sven, but mostly because Sven relies on the window of time he gets with God's Strength and if he loses that he's out of the fight even if he's alive. Just like N'aix relies on the brief window of time he gets with rage and wounds. Leoric doesn't rely on any window of time, he will still crit for 900 damage and he still has 5000 ehp times 2.



Weren't you done talking to me 12 posts ago? I'm actually going to actually move on from this unless you can start discussing things like an adult.

I meant done talking to you like an adult because you clearly don't know what you're talking about. I'm talking to you like I'd talk to any child in the sense that you're wrong and refuse to provide any evidence to any claim you've made besides "Oh well sk can't be ganked because he just kills everyone.".

[PizzaSHARK]

SK with treads bkb does zero damage and has 1 stun. Gyro with treads bkb only has high damage/slow call down, barrage, flack cannon to damage anyone in site, and a ranged stun.

Yea he's totally on gyro's level for early game. Just SLIGHTLY less helpful in team fights. Just barely.

SK Totally on par with luna though. Her ult sux bro.

Phase Boots Armlet BKB*

If you don't even know how to play Leoric, why are you even talking about him?

[Lysah]

@Lysah - I've not really ahd problems with sven in that regard, normally plenty or time to take out 1 or 2 people with his ulti up. But I build sven with blink / shadowblade to its easy to get on top of people fast. Granted SB wouldn't work in a pro game or if the other team wasn't dumb.

That's a big investment for little return (or no return from blink) and it still doesn't fix the problem of your target getting force staffed away and the enemy team disengaging and waiting out your ultimate.

I mean, I don't have issues with Sven either, and can usually kill people before storm bolt even wears off, but we're supposed to be talking about pro games ti4 metagamer ggnore where people won't typically get caught out and focused down, they will always have a team behind them and there will always be a force staff waiting for your blink stun.

Plus, the problem every hero but Leoric has is that despite how overpowered farmed whatever they might get, they will still get flattened by a good RP/black hole/anything of the sort + focus. Leoric not only does not care about this kind of thing, he invites it to happen, because after he forces you to waste your team fight on him he gets back up and you lose the game.


I mean, I agree, N'aix's main utility is being able to hop on other people's blink daggers. That's about the only way to use him, though, and N'aix was never played competitively when his ult was creeps only. What's that saying, again? Oh yeah, and for good reason.

Hilariously enough, the team I ran CAL with used N'aix as a safe lane farmer back then. I thought he was seriously underestimated because of the strong burst damage he has early game and he only wasn't popular because people insisted on jungling with him and he was mediocre at best at that. You wouldn't believe the amount of trash talking that got us. It worked reasonably well back the, but of course his ultimate was also half the cooldown and his GPM was much higher accordingly.

[Deleted]

Would he then have the problem with 5v2/1 - I mean yeah he is a good carry but he ain't that good - Plus they could just pop out a necro book while he is stunned and suddenly he doesn't have the mana to use his Ulti.


I mean I sure as hell don't use my stuns during a RP or Black hole and I can't see pro teams doing it either.


I would like to point out I do think most pros are actually brain dead and not actually that good - my example is the constant 4 / 5 Man RPs, Black holes etc etc etc which make me facepalm so hard.

[LiiLoSNK]

Phase Boots Armlet BKB*

If you don't even know how to play Leoric, why are you even talking about him?

How does your horrible example relate to my SK skill? You realize gyro and luna also demolish SK at farming right? What am I talking about. Of course you don't realize this. Apparently in your games, SK goes unbothered because he's absolutely so unkillable and strong early game. He provides so much to team fights prior to bkb, much more than gyro and luna of course, because apparently he's some godlike diamond in the rough because 2 random people who most likely don't play rated mmr have diagnosed him as such.

All hail based SK. The hero that is completely disregarded in competitive play, but is actually the best.

[Lysah]

but is actually the best.

Don't be ridiculous, there is no best, trying to say that would be failing the first and fundamental step of understanding a team game.

Nobody said Leoric is the best, he is simply god-tier. He's up there with Luna, Sniper, DK, Medusa, Mercurial. Every hero requires specific set ups, obviously, as stated above it is plain to see that N'aix is a garbage hero without a free infest initiation from his team. Just like you would pick a heavy protect team for Sniper, or a turtle team for Luna.

[Deleted]

Also can someone explain why Warlock isn't picked up in pro games.


I mean seriously that hero is Pure 100% rape.

[PizzaSHARK]

How does your horrible example relate to my SK skill? You realize gyro and luna also demolish SK at farming right? What am I talking about. Of course you don't realize this. Apparently in your games, SK goes unbothered because he's absolutely so unkillable and strong early game. He provides so much to team fights prior to bkb, much more than gyro and luna of course, because apparently he's some godlike diamond in the rough because 2 random people who most likely don't play rated mmr have diagnosed him as such.

What Leoric doesn't buy Armlet? He doesn't need to worry about dying or doing damage early and mid game because of Armlet - a single item covers both bases. BKB can cover him against mana drains in late game, or he can wand/soul ring depending on the type of mana drain.

This is what I'm talking about when I'm telling you that you don't know anything about the hero. You're like... fuck, whoever it was on Rox.KIS that picked Leoric yesterday and proceeded to do fuck all with him. You don't know anything about the hero, so when you inevitably fail with him, it's because hero is bad, not because you aren't familiar with him.

All hail based SK. The hero that is completely disregarded in competitive play, but is actually the best.

You are so fucking ignorant it's honestly a little bit endearing.

[LiiLoSNK]

Don't be ridiculous, there is no best, trying to say that would be failing the first and fundamental step of understanding a team game.

Nobody said Leoric is the best, he is simply god-tier. He's up there with Luna, Sniper, DK, Medusa, Mercurial. Every hero requires specific set ups, obviously, as stated above it is plain to see that N'aix is a garbage hero without a free infest initiation from his team. Just like you would pick a heavy protect team for Sniper, or a turtle team for Luna.

SK has worse farm than everyone you've mentioned and provides nothing to team fights until he can afford to not get slammed to the ground by disables. Naix comes fight ready from the start and can/will have items faster than an sk of the same skill. You're saying naix is garbage without infest initiation. What kind of statement is that to make?

"that hero is bad if he doesn't use his spells"

That seems painfully obvious and true for all heroes, don't you think? He has it, he uses it, and it is amazingly godlike. When one of you mentioned earlier that SK is a better ganker, my jaw literally dropped. Naix Bombing is ridiculous and it comes online LONG before SK will even be close to fight ready.

[PizzaSHARK]

Also can someone explain why Warlock isn't picked up in pro games.


I mean seriously that hero is Pure 100% rape.

Not sure. I think it's because he's not really a support, but not really a carry either. He can't be played as a support. He needs levels and he needs farm. But I've always thought he's a pretty competent mid, and he works fine in duo lanes.

It's really just about getting Agh's and Refresher Orb in a decent time. Diffusal Blade counters single golem ult and hurts double golem ult, but there's absolutely nothing it can do about a four golem double ult. Fatal Bonds dominates teamfights and basically everything else, and Upheaval is seriously just massively underrated.

I've started taking a point in Upheaval at level 4 and it has fantastic results. You can fucking cast it from like two goddamn screens away, it hits basically an entire fucking screen, and it lasts a long goddamn time after they get out of it; even Force Staff won't save you from it. Plus, the slow scales based on how long Warlock has been casting it, rather than how long the targets have been in it. Even with just one point, it's not really hard to basically slow an entire screen worth of enemy heroes by 50% for a long damn time.

[Lysah]

provides nothing to team fights until he can afford to not get slammed to the ground by disables

Reincarnation
When killed the Skeleton King will come back to life and slow enemies in a 900 aoe by 50% for 3 seconds.

provides nothing to team fights

And I'm saying that N'aix relies on proper team comp to be a good hero. You're immediately saying Leoric is bad because he doesn't fit with the same team comps N'aix fits in that you see in pro streams without even beginning to imagine that they might, just maybe, pick a different lineup for him.

Not being picked by pros has nothing to do with being a good or bad hero. It has everything to do with fitting in with the other flavor of the month heroes. Leoric is a double carry lineup hero and people are still playing 4 protect 1. This is DotA 101.