1. #12901
    The Lightbringer Puffler's Avatar
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    "Guys someone come with me to ward"

    -Nobody answers for 30 seconds

    "If I go alone I will die"

    -Nobody offers to help

    - Goes to ward / counter ward

    -Dies

    100% of my games when i'm support
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  2. #12902
    Quote Originally Posted by Puffler View Post
    "Guys someone come with me to ward"

    -Nobody answers for 30 seconds

    "If I go alone I will die"

    -Nobody offers to help

    - Goes to ward / counter ward

    -Dies

    100% of my games when i'm support
    Mid player:

    "Hey guys, come with me and gank their woods"

    -Nobody answers for 30 seconds.

    "If I go alone I will die"

    -Nobody offers to help

    -Goes to gank 3 people in their woods alone

    -Dies

    Expected it to have turned out differently.
    Last edited by Ariadne; 2014-03-25 at 02:54 PM.

  3. #12903
    The Lightbringer Puffler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Mid player:

    "Hey guys, come with me and gank their woods"

    -Nobody answers for 30 seconds.

    "If I go alone I will die"

    -Nobody offers to help

    -Goes to gank 3 people in their woods alone

    -Dies

    Expected it to have turned out differently.
    - Mid goes into woods and dies solo without vision.

    So you knowing go into their woods knowing that you will die if you go solo is the same as counterwarding your side of the jungle, which needs to be done one way or another is the same eh ?
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  4. #12904
    Quote Originally Posted by Puffler View Post
    - Mid goes into woods and dies solo without vision.

    So you knowing go into their woods knowing that you will die if you go solo is the same as counterwarding your side of the jungle, which needs to be done one way or another is the same eh ?
    Without vision? Supports let their wards fall down too often. Then when you say to them that we got no vision they say that they can't ward 'cause they have no vision. I know, it confuses me too.

  5. #12905
    Legendary! Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Having no items doesn't excuse you to die out of position alone. That's the main problem. If you die in a fight then before you get anything off then that's on you. Position yourself better. If you die because you are randomly running into the woods trying to ward then that's on you, no one else fault. But I've never seen someone flame a support for only having brown boots 20 minutes in if he kept wards up and had sentries and shit on him. Use the damn Quick Buy too. If you are about to die buy something before you die so that gold doesn't get wasted like a Magic Stick or piece of a Bracer.
    You usually die because you are 2 shotted by enemy Gondar or w.e. Even Bracer won't save you

  6. #12906
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Without vision? Supports let their wards fall down too often. Then when you say to them that we got no vision they say that they can't ward 'cause they have no vision. I know, it confuses me too.
    Well how are you suppose to ward when you end up getting ganked along the way?
    Honestly I'm getting to the point in pubs where if there's no support I'm not gonna pick one, people expect way too much from a solo support.
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  7. #12907
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Well how are you suppose to ward when you end up getting ganked along the way?
    Honestly I'm getting to the point in pubs where if there's no support I'm not gonna pick one, people expect way too much from a solo support.
    Exactly that mentality stops low-mid MMR supports from ever performing well. I hear it every game from bad supports. "I can't go ward", "I'm solo support so I can't keep wards up", "I'm solo support so I can't have sentries for the gank". It's just an excuse for lackluster play.

    I understand that's it's hard to ward when the other team has total map control and you are getting dominated but in non-stomp game it's not that hard. You need to ward with an objective. Suicide warding is fine if it's a crucial spot you need to cover but if it's a suicide ward then maybe don't ask your team to come with you. The only times I feel you need teammates to cover you is when you want aggressive wards.

    The way people ward shows how much knowledge they have about the game. And guess what? I can always tell if a guy is a bad support by just watching how he wards, it never surprises me.

    You playing against a TB or Naga? Maybe ward your own woods and its entrance points because he is going to take over it once he is strong enough. People don't do that though and they continue to ward rune spots and Roshan pits and stuff. Playing with a Tinker? Get a mid ward up so he can spam Rockets once he has BoTs and defend your mid tower without having to risk his life by getting jumped on. Playing against Radiant SF? Try getting a ward that sees when he goes for the neutrals. Got a good lead? Offensive wards so your team can take over their jungle and farm it. If you don't ward they can't do that and your lead may just slip away very quickly.

    It's all about understanding the game, the heroes you are facing and playing with and the flow of the game and what you want to do. The understanding of these things shows in your warding.

    Your question about getting ganked along the way? Why can they see you? Because they got wards up. You reduce the chance of getting ganked drastically if you have wards up yourself so you can see where their gankers are. You also reduce the chance to die if you know where their wards are and avoid running through them. That's also one of the things that separates good from bad supports. Good supports notice when enemy ward in vision, bad supports don't.

  8. #12908
    Legendary! Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Suicide warding is never fine, because you will have your ward destroyed in next half of a minute. And it sucks to be melee solo support because you literally can't deward on HG

  9. #12909
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Exactly that mentality stops low-mid MMR supports from ever performing well. I hear it every game from bad supports. "I can't go ward", "I'm solo support so I can't keep wards up", "I'm solo support so I can't have sentries for the gank". It's just an excuse for lackluster play.
    How often do you honestly play support though(Not meaning this as a jab, I just believe you were saying you prefer mid)? Because this is the exact reason I'm being turned off from it. I don't play MMR, but in pubs people somehow expect me to get wards(Both kinds), mek, and boots all on generated gold. It's the mentality of everyone needs to rush carries as soon as possible that causes this, because no one wants to play support. It's just awful. The amount of team mates that I encounter that will blame you for only have brown boots and what not, or the ones that don't even understand what the hell supports do, vastly outnumbers the amount of players that understand if the other team decides to stun you, you'll drop in seconds due to spending a majority of gold on wards. And forget suicide warding, no matter where you ward, most people will end up blaming you for feeding. I've even gotten numerous teams where I will ward the river for example, and they could obviously see bottom heading to mid, or mid heading to bot, and they'll still end up getting ganked, even if missing was called, then say like 7 minutes later "wth, need wards".

    If I'm playing with friends, or with people who actually use the wards, yes, I will ward the hell out of that map. But when it comes down to it, usually a mek is more useful on a team that just ignores wards anyway, or doesn't help place them.

    Also they don't even need wards up, it could just be an invis Riki roaming around, but I'm assuming I should also have dust to randomly pop if I'm feeling lucky to reveal someone right? Honestly I'm not a great player, but it's just the right way to work the game in my opinion by running with one support.
    Last edited by Jester Joe; 2014-03-26 at 03:26 AM.
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  10. #12910
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    How often do you honestly play support though(Not meaning this as a jab, I just believe you were saying you prefer mid)? Because this is the exact reason I'm being turned off from it. I don't play MMR, but in pubs people somehow expect me to get wards(Both kinds), mek, and boots all on generated gold.
    Not often at all. But when I do, people never blame me for only having boots or for feeding. Now, ask yourself is it your or me that is playing support wrong if that's the case? I won my last two games as support like two days ago. We were in quite a pickle but managed to win both games. I'm not even a good support and I still don't get flamed when I play it.

    No one will say "wth, need wards" if there are wards up. If they stay that they are just retards and you know it and just ping on the ward and do a "?".

    @Charge me doctor

    What I meant by suicide warding is going into a risky place where you might very well end up killed but if you manage to get the ward up then you get a huge advantage. It's not about warding in vision. Sometimes you see pro support run alone into enemy woods and put a ward down. Obviously if he is caught he doesn't put it down.
    Last edited by Ariadne; 2014-03-26 at 04:03 AM.

  11. #12911
    Merely a Setback Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Tis why I don't play Support.
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  12. #12912
    Quote Originally Posted by Aeluron Lightsong View Post
    Tis why I don't play Support.
    'Cause people flame you for not supporting when you pick support? Okay.
    Last edited by Ariadne; 2014-03-26 at 01:39 PM.

  13. #12913
    The Lightbringer Puffler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    'Cause people flame your for not supporting when you pick support? Okay.
    Because people don't realise its hard enough to solo support vs 2 supports when warding and instead of coming with you to gank or at least as backup when warding they mindlessly farm while you lose map vision and eventually don't have enough money to compete with 2 people counterwarding and warding and trying to not get killed while doing so often leads to wards in poor places or risk getting killed myself, and then getting moaned at for feeding even thought I've died 2 times more than our carry.

    Clearly my fault.
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  14. #12914
    Pandaren Monk Maruka's Avatar
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    I like to support, and i think the only time it really sucks to be solo support (which is annoying as hell sometimes) is if they have a good double support that counter wards. Then you inevitably will have a map with no wards at some point.

    Ive won a lot of support matches of late, even one where our sf mid started 0-8 lol

  15. #12915
    Dreadlord veiledy0's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Exactly that mentality stops low-mid MMR supports from ever performing well. I hear it every game from bad supports. "I can't go ward", "I'm solo support so I can't keep wards up", "I'm solo support so I can't have sentries for the gank". It's just an excuse for lackluster play.
    It's rather egoism than lackluster play. Supporting is considered a "shit job", and no one likes doing shit jobs alone. The only support I ever pick if I'm forced to do it is Bane, so that in case my carry and mid are shit, I can sleep my team mates out of position and help the enemies get more kills to end the game faster.
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  16. #12916
    Quote Originally Posted by Puffler View Post
    Because people don't realise its hard enough to solo support vs 2 supports when warding and instead of coming with you to gank or at least as backup when warding they mindlessly farm while you lose map vision and eventually don't have enough money to compete with 2 people counterwarding and warding and trying to not get killed while doing so often leads to wards in poor places or risk getting killed myself, and then getting moaned at for feeding even thought I've died 2 times more than our carry.

    Clearly my fault.
    There are two sides to every story and the things you say I hear supports in my games say all the time and I can tell that they make way more mistakes than that but they don't see it. But ask yourself why don't I get flamed even though I don't play support often and I consider it my worst role? Why don't I consider it difficult? Am I just lucky?

  17. #12917
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    There are two sides to every story and the things you say I hear supports in my games say all the time and I can tell that they make way more mistakes than that but they don't see it. But ask yourself why don't I get flamed even though I don't play support often and I consider it my worst role? Why don't I consider it difficult? Am I just lucky?
    Without a replay at hand, we can't exactly tell whether you're doing supporting right or not.

  18. #12918
    The Lightbringer Puffler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    There are two sides to every story and the things you say I hear supports in my games say all the time and I can tell that they make way more mistakes than that but they don't see it. But ask yourself why don't I get flamed even though I don't play support often and I consider it my worst role? Why don't I consider it difficult? Am I just lucky?
    Who said it was difficult ? Nobody, its lack of help from the team.

    Difference being you are at 5k + rating, most people are not.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    Without a replay at hand, we can't exactly tell whether you're doing supporting right or not.
    You can't support correctly as a solo support without appropriate back up from your team, look at any pro game and it will show you this.
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  19. #12919
    Quote Originally Posted by Puffler View Post
    Who said it was difficult ? Nobody, its lack of help from the team.

    Difference being you are at 5k + rating, most people are not.
    Sorry, didn't you mean it is difficult when you said "Because people don't realise its hard enough to solo support vs 2 supports....".

    Difference? The difference is I can tell if a guy is a low MMR support by just seeing how many excuses he makes for not having wards up. Is this a coincidence?

    Do note that what I've said in this thread is just the basic support play. I could go on about the thousands of mistakes supports make in general but that'd just be superfluous 'cause they can't even get the basics right.

    @Drukenvalley

    I don't play support "right". I just play it good enough to not get flamed by the ones I'm supposed to support.
    Last edited by Ariadne; 2014-03-26 at 03:38 PM.

  20. #12920
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    I don't play support "right". I just play it good enough to not get flamed by the ones I'm supposed to support.
    I'd say no, you're playing it at a bracket where people in general understand how to play support. Have you gone through the trench lately? You could literally do everything right, and people will flame you for not doing something wrong. For example, like pointed out earlier in another thread, battle fury isn't good for PA, yet there are people in pubs that will flame you if you don't get one. Or getting Agh's on OD. I've had so many team mates go double boots, use the beam as phoenix until they have low health just to kill creeps, but the enemy will just tower dive to kill them, get life steal on Wrath King, or even get two skull bashers on Sniper, and then ask if they stack.
    I'd like to think I'm a decent support, since my two highest win percentages are on Witch Doctor and Crystal Maiden, I will ward, I think you misunderstood what I meant in the first place, I don't refuse to ward for no reason, it's when people start flaming for you not having arcane boots yet or something silly, when you simply can't afford it because the game has only been going for 15 minutes and someone has to keep the wards up.
    And like Puffler said, supporting not hard. What is hard is getting your team mates to actually have a higher IQ than a potato.
    Last edited by Jester Joe; 2014-03-26 at 04:19 PM.
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