[Megathread] DotA 2

[Deleted]

Blink is garbage on LC unless you're drafting her specifically to counter rat heroes like tinker, profit, etc. Otherwise phase boots + S&Y will give you like 500+ ms with Overwhelming Odds, more than enough to rapidly close on someone for a Duel.

While I like SnY on LC, and often build it myself when I solo-queue and have to do more on my own, I really, really, really dislike Phase Boots. I suppose they do more early, but assuming the game goes well and you get Duel damage, I feel like high-HP, high-IAS builds do more than builds with Phase Boots.

IIRC my standard build out of mid is Bottle, Treads, Drums, SnY if I solo-queue, and Bottle, Treads, Blink if I'm playing with people I know are mostly not retarded. I feel like Blink on LC is just too good with a coordinated team to pass up, but just like Blink on TA I strongly dislike it in pub games.

[Deleted]

Unless it directly nets you those 1k back in short order, I dislike it almost as much as Midas on TA, which verges on the outright mentally challenged.

What? Enlighten me, please.

[Deleted]

What? Enlighten me, please.

I could maybe - maaaybe - see it working on a safelane TA, but TA's whole strength is doing a metric shit-ton of damage in the early game, and pissing that away by spending 1.5k on a Midas when you could have gotten most of a Drums or Yasha in its stead is just stupid, IMHO. I really, really, really don't like Midas on her, because with TA you definitely don't want to take the game late if you can avoid it.

You basically need your core (which I would argue is Treads, Drums, Yasha and a BKB in any non-stomp game) within a certain timing window for maximum efficiency with TA. Midas does nothing to help you achieve that - you're at your peak before Midas has paid itself off, and the extra XP you get out of it is mostly going to end up as levels in Psi Blades, which don't do all that much past the first point.

So yeah, no, I really hate Midas on TA - almost as much as people who buy Phase-Blink and then wonder why they die every time somebody breaks wind in their direction.

Edit: I should add that the standard rules apply with a Midas. Obviously if for some reason (i.e other team was retard and fed you FB + an extra kill or two) you can get Midas stupidly early, then get Midas and laugh all the way to the bank - but if that Midas comes out any later than 5 minutes on TA, I reckon it's making a purchase that's completely contrary to what TA is about.

[Hermanni]

I don't think I have ever seen anyone do the exact combination of Treads - Drums - Yasha - BKB on TA.

[Deleted]

I don't think I have ever seen anyone do the exact combination of Treads - Drums - Yasha - BKB on TA.

Wagamama, who has been above 7k MMR, and got there by spamming TA, builds this almost without fail if game is the least bit hard. If game is not so hard, he gets a critstick before BKB, but the point remains - it's an extremely effective pub build.

Midas, or worse, straight Phase-Blink? Not so much. Even with a competent team that you've played with before, I still dislike both.

Edit: I should point out that this does not mean I think this build has any place in the pros, since the way high-MMR TA players and pro TA players use the hero is wildly different, with Blink clearly being absolutely core, and the build in general being much squishier.

[Hermanni]

Wagamama, who has been above 7k MMR, and got there by spamming TA, builds this almost without fail if game is the least bit hard. If game is not so hard, he gets a critstick before BKB, but the point remains - it's an extremely effective pub build.

Midas, or worse, straight Phase-Blink? Not so much. Even with a competent team that you've played with before, I still dislike both.

I don't follow him, but I remember getting raped by him twice consecutively the day after TA was released, so maybe. I dislike Drums on that hero, though.

[Deleted]

I don't follow him, but I remember getting raped by him twice consecutively the day after TA was released, so maybe. I dislike Drums on that hero, though.

I think Drums is absolutely core. If you can't rely on supports to give you more or less complete rune control, TA struggles for mana even with bottlecrowing - something Treads + Drums fixes early. Coupled with Yasha it also gives you something like 430 movespeed, which makes up for not having a Blink.

[Deleted]

I could maybe - maaaybe - see it working on a safelane TA, but TA's whole strength is doing a metric shit-ton of damage in the early game, and pissing that away by spending 1.5k on a Midas when you could have gotten most of a Drums or Yasha in its stead is just stupid, IMHO. I really, really, really don't like Midas on her, because with TA you definitely don't want to take the game late if you can avoid it.

You basically need your core (which I would argue is Treads, Drums, Yasha and a BKB in any non-stomp game) within a certain timing window for maximum efficiency with TA. Midas does nothing to help you achieve that - you're at your peak before Midas has paid itself off, and the extra XP you get out of it is mostly going to end up as levels in Psi Blades, which don't do all that much past the first point.

So yeah, no, I really hate Midas on TA - almost as much as people who buy Phase-Blink and then wonder why they die every time somebody breaks wind in their direction.

Edit: I should add that the standard rules apply with a Midas. Obviously if for some reason (i.e other team was retard and fed you FB + an extra kill or two) you can get Midas stupidly early, then get Midas and laugh all the way to the bank - but if that Midas comes out any later than 5 minutes on TA, I reckon it's making a purchase that's completely contrary to what TA is about.

Your problem is that you think TA is only an early game hero or "ganker". I don't know why people have this misconception of this hero. She does all her damage with right-clicks and scales well with items. Midas help her get to those items. TA isn't weak in the mid-late game. She is quite strong carry compared to most mids.

With the item builds you promoted you're gonna hit like a wet noodle. I hate BKB on TA and I only go it if their team is mostly compromised of magic damage and disables which I can't avoid. Maybe that's the reason you feel she doesn't scale well into late game because you go items that make her do nothing.

Yes, if you need to carry the game alone then Midas is not the right choice as you need impact early but in any other case Midas is an excellent choice on the hero. Levels are great on TA because having max Meld is very strong and having max Psi Blades allows you to hit those Melds. She also makes great use of the attack speed.

[Deleted]

Your problem is that you think TA is only an early game hero or "ganker". I don't know why people have this misconception of this hero. She does all her damage with right-clicks and scales well with items. Midas help her get to those items. TA isn't weak in the mid-late game. She is quite strong carry compared to most mids.

With the item builds you promoted you're gonna hit like a wet noodle. I hate BKB on TA and I only go it if their team is mostly compromised of magic damage and disables which I can't avoid. Maybe that's the reason you feel she doesn't scale well into late game because you go items that make her do nothing.

Yes, if you need to carry the game alone then Midas is not the right choice as you need impact early but in any other case Midas is an excellent choice on the hero. Levels are great on TA because having max Meld is very strong and having max Psi Blades allows you to hit those Melds. She also makes great use of the attack speed.

I don't think TA is an early game hero, and I'm well aware that her ass should be parked mid unless she gets a good rune. This does not change the fact that there is a timing window where TA is the strongest hero on the map, and that it ends somewhere around the half-hour mark. Getting Treads, Drums and Yasha (BKB if warranted, whatever the fuck else if it isn't) lets you run around picking fights with basically infinite mana for Refraction, great movespeed, and enough health to not have to rely completely on Refraction to keep you alive.

I don't know why you claim that TA hits like a wet noodle with any build, really. The second you have lvl 4 Refraction, you could build a Force Staff first and still out-hit most heroes for the next 10 minutes. Treads Drums Yasha lets you take the advantage and press it, rather than pissing away your extremely strong early game with an item that will just see you outcarried by harder carries if the game actually goes late enough for it to pay for itself, and I simply disagree that Midas is worth it XP-wise just for a few extra levels in Psi Blades - you'll have anywhere between 100 and 75 more movespeed than every other hero on the map with Treads-Drums-Yasha - if you can't hit your Melds with that, another point or two in Psi Blades won't help you.

It's not that I'm saying Midas TA can't work, I just don't think it's ever an optimal item barring situations where game is won no matter what the fuck you do. It's like SnY on Slark - sure, it does some pretty ok things, but there are so many other things you could buy with those 1.5k that synergize better with your skillset.

Edit: And for the record, I too hate building BKB on TA, but that doesn't change the fact that getting an early BKB on her will often simply let you close out the game then and there.

[Deleted]

I don't think TA is an early game hero, and I'm well aware that her ass should be parked mid unless she gets a good rune. This does not change the fact that there is a timing window where TA is the strongest hero on the map, and that it ends somewhere around the half-hour mark. Getting Treads, Drums and Yasha (BKB if warranted, whatever the fuck else if it isn't) lets you run around picking fights with basically infinite mana for Refraction, great movespeed, and enough health to not have to rely completely on Refraction to keep you alive.

I don't know why you claim that TA hits like a wet noodle with any build, really. The second you have lvl 4 Refraction, you could build a Force Staff first and still out-hit most heroes for the next 10 minutes. Treads Drums Yasha lets you take the advantage and press it, rather than pissing away your extremely strong early game with an item that will just see you outcarried by harder carries if the game actually goes late enough for it to pay for itself, and I simply disagree that Midas is worth it XP-wise just for a few extra levels in Psi Blades - you'll have anywhere between 100 and 75 more movespeed than every other hero on the map with Treads-Drums-Yasha - if you can't hit your Melds with that, another point or two in Psi Blades won't help you.

It's not that I'm saying Midas TA can't work, I just don't think it's ever an optimal item barring situations where game is won no matter what the fuck you do. It's like SnY on Slark - sure, it does some pretty ok things, but there are so many other things you could buy with those 1.5k that synergize better with your skillset.

Edit: And for the record, I too hate building BKB on TA, but that doesn't change the fact that getting an early BKB on her will often simply let you close out the game then and there.

If you compare TA's damage when she has a Desolator compared to not then you'll realize the damage difference. If all you have is Treads, BKB, Yasha and Drums at let's say 25 minutes then you're going to hit way less than other carries. You say you don't think TA is an early game hero yet you are saying people throw away her extremely strong early game with Midas and that is why it's a bad choice.

Midas pays off itself way before the 30 minute mark. I struggle to hit Melds with level one Psi Blades. I have to get really close and if my opponent moves as I'm about to Meld I miss it because of the range. Level 2 and 3 are much easier. Let's say you get Midas when you're level 7 or 8. At that point you haven't even maxed Meld yet. That helps too.

[Deleted]

If you compare TA's damage when she has a Desolator compared to not then you'll realize the damage difference. If all you have is Treads, BKB, Yasha and Drums at let's say 25 minutes then you're going to hit way less than other carries. You say you don't think TA is an early game hero yet you are saying people throw away her extremely strong early game with Midas and that is why it's a bad choice.

Midas pays off itself way before the 30 minute mark. I struggle to hit Melds with level one Psi Blades. I have to get really close and if my opponent moves as I'm about to Meld I miss it because of the range. Level 2 and 3 are much easier. Let's say you get Midas when you're level 7 or 8. At that point you haven't even maxed Meld yet. That helps too.

I said she's not an early game hero in the sense that she isn't, like Undying and Axe, completely worthless after 20 minutes. She can certainly go late with some effectiveness, but she basically has to be ahead, and by quite a bit, to carry a game.

Is Desolator nice on her? Sure. But if you build Phase-Blink-Desolator, or god forbid, Midas as part of that, you're going to die the second your Refraction wears off. It doesn't matter how much damage you do if you can't stay alive long enough to deal it. If you build items that let her take straight fights while she still has a huge advantage from what's basically a free Daedalus (with no crit, obviously), then you can capitalize on the fact that TA hits harder than any other hero early. If not, you piss that away and basically rely on out-skilling and out-farming your opponents.

While I suppose that may be a viable strategy for you in particular, and that might explain why you defend Midas on TA, I don't think "I'm better than everyone else, so Midas it is!" is a reasonable starting point for a build - and certainly not when you're flat-out wrong in the first place about Midas paying itself off "way before" 30 minutes. Assuming that you gain 190 net gold with every usage (which is an incorrect assumption in the first place, but in fact favours your argument), and that you use Midas EXACTLY on CD, it takes 11 usages, or 18.33 minutes for Midas to pay off. Assuming that you're playing with an opponent that actually manages to contest mid somewhat, a Midas much earlier than 8 minutes is extremely unlikely, especially considering that you need at the very least a Bottle to even contest mid as TA. This leaves us with an optimistic return-on-investment time of 26 minutes into the game, speaking purely in terms of gold - hardly "way before" 30 minutes, and only exacerbated by the fact that you don't actually gain 190 net gold with every usage, and the fact that you most likely will not use Midas exactly on CD 11 times in a row.

Basically what I'm trying to get at is that I think you should be fighting early and often with TA, and Treads, Drums, Yasha clearly let you do that with little danger of running out of mana or getting blown to pieces the second Refraction is down - and the track record of Wagamama with the build more than supports my argument. Can Midas TA pay off in certain games? Sure! Midas can pay off on any hero, but that doesn't make it less irresponsibly greedy to build on TA, in my opinion - just like getting a Desolator when you probably really need a BKB can pay off big-time, but is likewise hugely risky and irresponsible.

[Deleted]

I said she's not an early game hero in the sense that she isn't, like Undying and Axe, completely worthless after 20 minutes. She can certainly go late with some effectiveness, but she basically has to be ahead, and by quite a bit, to carry a game.

Is Desolator nice on her? Sure. But if you build Phase-Blink-Desolator, or god forbid, Midas as part of that, you're going to die the second your Refraction wears off. It doesn't matter how much damage you do if you can't stay alive long enough to deal it. If you build items that let her take straight fights while she still has a huge advantage from what's basically a free Daedalus (with no crit, obviously), then you can capitalize on the fact that TA hits harder than any other hero early. If not, you piss that away and basically rely on out-skilling and out-farming your opponents.

While I suppose that may be a viable strategy for you in particular, and that might explain why you defend Midas on TA, I don't think "I'm better than everyone else, so Midas it is!" is a reasonable starting point for a build - and certainly not when you're flat-out wrong in the first place about Midas paying itself off "way before" 30 minutes. Assuming that you gain 190 net gold with every usage (which is an incorrect assumption in the first place, but in fact favours your argument), and that you use Midas EXACTLY on CD, it takes 11 usages, or 18.33 minutes for Midas to pay off. Assuming that you're playing with an opponent that actually manages to contest mid somewhat, a Midas much earlier than 8 minutes is extremely unlikely, especially considering that you need at the very least a Bottle to even contest mid as TA. This leaves us with an optimistic return-on-investment time of 26 minutes into the game, speaking purely in terms of gold - hardly "way before" 30 minutes, and only exacerbated by the fact that you don't actually gain 190 net gold with every usage, and the fact that you most likely will not use Midas exactly on CD 11 times in a row.

Basically what I'm trying to get at is that I think you should be fighting early and often with TA, and Treads, Drums, Yasha clearly let you do that with little danger of running out of mana or getting blown to pieces the second Refraction is down - and the track record of Wagamama with the build more than supports my argument. Can Midas TA pay off in certain games? Sure! Midas can pay off on any hero, but that doesn't make it less irresponsibly greedy to build on TA, in my opinion - just like getting a Desolator when you probably really need a BKB can pay off big-time, but is likewise hugely risky and irresponsible.

As I said, BKB depends on if the enemy team has avoidable CC or not. If the enemy has many unavoidable CCs and magic damage then of course you need a BKB. But if not you can rely on position (Psi Blades help here) to avoid CC and just do massive damage to supports and carries who dare to stand in the front line.

That's cute math you're throwing around there. But you're not paying 2050 for just the gold. You get +30 AS so put a value on that too because the AS alone boosts your farm and then the levels of course. Having a level 4 Meld instead of a level 2 Meld makes a huge difference in fights. Put a value on that too.

I don't even go Midas. When did I ever say Midas is good for me or that because I'm better than everyone else that it's a good choice? I hate to go it in pubs. But I'm not stupid enough to not see its strength. In games where the skill level is fairly equal the value of Midas goes up tenfold. The scariest TAs are probably the ones with a Midas who then proceed to farm for their Desolator. That puts so much pressure on the enemy team to deal with TA because they know she is farming up to be a huge monster after she gets her Desolator/BKB.

[veiledy0]

If you build Phase, you don't build Desolator. It's either, or.

[Deleted]

If you build Phase, you don't build Desolator. It's either, or.

Tell that to ^^DragonFist^^. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/86043885/matches

[Deleted]

As I said, BKB depends on if the enemy team has avoidable CC or not. If the enemy has many unavoidable CCs and magic damage then of course you need a BKB. But if not you can rely on position (Psi Blades help here) to avoid CC and just do massive damage to supports and carries who dare to stand in the front line.

That's cute math you're throwing around there. But you're not paying 2050 for just the gold. You get +30 AS so put a value on that too because the AS alone boosts your farm and then the levels of course. Having a level 4 Meld instead of a level 2 Meld makes a huge difference in fights. Put a value on that too.

I don't even go Midas. When did I ever say Midas is good for me or that because I'm better than everyone else that it's a good choice? I hate to go it in pubs. But I'm not stupid enough to not see its strength. In games where the skill level is fairly equal the value of Midas goes up tenfold. The scariest TAs are probably the ones with a Midas who then proceed to farm for their Desolator. That puts so much pressure on the enemy team to deal with TA because they know she is farming up to be a huge monster after she gets her Desolator/BKB.

You know, for how much you talk up Midas on TA, it's pretty striking that your link of Dragonfist's Dotabuff consists exactly zero Midas TA games, that the same is the case for Wagamama, another exceptionally highly ranked TA player, that Mu's absolutely filthy TA during TI was sans Midas, etc; in fact, the only memorable Midas TA game I recall is RTZ buying Midas on TA and subsequently being a complete non-factor. Not to say these anecdotes are data, but by virtue of sheer volume I'd say there's certainly something of a case against Midas being a standard item on TA like it is on say, Void.

It's not that I don't understand how Midas can be a great item on TA under the right circumstances (i.e getting it ridiculously early), but quite frankly I think you're overstating how useful of an item it is on her. There's almost always a better item for TA than Midas, and it shows.

[Deleted]

You know, for how much you talk up Midas on TA, it's pretty striking that your link of Dragonfist's Dotabuff consists exactly zero Midas TA games, that the same is the case for Wagamama, another exceptionally highly ranked TA player, that Mu's absolutely filthy TA during TI was sans Midas, etc; in fact, the only memorable Midas TA game I recall is RTZ buying Midas on TA and subsequently being a complete non-factor. Not to say these anecdotes are data, but by virtue of sheer volume I'd say there's certainly something of a case against Midas being a standard item on TA like it is on say, Void.

It's not that I don't understand how Midas can be a great item on TA under the right circumstances (i.e getting it ridiculously early), but quite frankly I think you're overstating how useful of an item it is on her. There's almost always a better item for TA than Midas, and it shows.

Wagamama has already stated that he thinks Midas is good after seeing Singsing and Arteezy go it and understand its value. He said that he before thought Midas was bad but changed his mind (it was during TI qualifiers). I've already said earlier that Midas is bad if you need to carry the game, which both Wagamama and DragonFist do because they play with 4k MMR people.

Your argument for why Midas is bad is because TA falls off. But Midas counter-acts that perfectly. She doesn't fall off because she has items.

[PizzaSHARK]

I'd love to hear the reasoning behind Clinkz's ult get explained to me. Give a hero tons of free damage, free IAS, and permanent haste rune through skills... and then give him tons of free health and MORE damage through his ult, and give it 100% uptime at lvl 3.

I want some of what Icefrog smokes when he does hero balancing.

[veiledy0]

Tell that to ^^DragonFist^^. http://www.dotabuff.com/players/86043885/matches

Don't have him on steam/skype. It's counterintuitive in theory. Both Meld and Deso apply their effect on first attack, after that you're better off with attack speed.

[Deleted]

Wagamama has already stated that he thinks Midas is good after seeing Singsing and Arteezy go it and understand its value. He said that he before thought Midas was bad but changed his mind (it was during TI qualifiers). I've already said earlier that Midas is bad if you need to carry the game, which both Wagamama and DragonFist do because they play with 4k MMR people.

Your argument for why Midas is bad is because TA falls off. But Midas counter-acts that perfectly. She doesn't fall off because she has items.

... items that she is just as capable, if not more, of getting by capitalizing on the phase of the game where she is relatively at her strongest. It's not that I don't understand the value of Midas, it's that I think it contributes little to her potential power when it is at its peak relative to other heroes on the map.

The reason TA falls off isn't because of a lack of items - her flash-farming is great because of Psi Blades - it's because there comes a point in every game where Refraction and Meld begin to be largely irrelevant, and carries with stronger steroids and equivalent net worth simply beat her into the ground. Midas does nothing to counteract that - it only exacerbates the issue by making it less likely that you end the game before this juncture.

PS: I should note that my entire line of argumentation assumes that TA is being played in a 2 role at worst. I am aware that she also sees use in a very pickoff-oriented 3 role, rushing Phase, Blink and Deso and praying she can kill backline supports before anyone notices her and blows her sky-high. In this case Midas is a fine item, but I feel this way of playing TA wastes a significant part of her potential. I suppose this may be the way you envision her being played, and why you like Midas so much on her (and to be fair, it is probably the only way she really sees play in the pro scene, currently), but I disagree that this style of playing TA is in any way particularly suited to pubs, which are my chief concern.

[Deleted]

... items that she is just as capable, if not more, of getting by capitalizing on the phase of the game where she is relatively at her strongest. It's not that I don't understand the value of Midas, it's that I think it contributes little to her potential power when it is at its peak relative to other heroes on the map.

The reason TA falls off isn't because of a lack of items - her flash-farming is great because of Psi Blades - it's because there comes a point in every game where Refraction and Meld begin to be largely irrelevant, and carries with stronger steroids and equivalent net worth simply beat her into the ground. Midas does nothing to counteract that - it only exacerbates the issue by making it less likely that you end the game before this juncture.

PS: I should note that my entire line of argumentation assumes that TA is being played in a 2 role at worst. I am aware that she also sees use in a very pickoff-oriented 3 role, rushing Phase, Blink and Deso and praying she can kill backline supports before anyone notices her and blows her sky-high. In this case Midas is a fine item, but I feel this way of playing TA wastes a significant part of her potential. I suppose this may be the way you envision her being played, and why you like Midas so much on her (and to be fair, it is probably the only way she really sees play in the pro scene, currently), but I disagree that this style of playing TA is in any way particularly suited to pubs, which are my chief concern.

I never said Midas was good in pubs. Actually I said it's a bad pickup in pubs if you need to carry your team.

The reason TA falls off is exactly because of lack of items. She spends her time running around fighting then of course she will fall off compared to a guy that is farming. However, if TA goes Midas and farms while still having great potential to fight she will have an item advantage and that's when she is the scariest.

A TA with Drum/Treads/Yasha/BKB that runs at supports or carries mid game is way less scary than a TA with Treads/Midas/Desolator/BKB/Crystalys running at supports or carries.

If you see a TA like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipOn7KFuGic. Don't you think Rox.KiS were afraid? And that's a TA with 5 death to her name and only 6 kills. She is still the most scary hero on that map 36 minutes in.