[Megathread] DotA 2

[Scummer]

I cant imagine trying doing this as support.

Generally frustrating as I feel your actions are constrained to how effective your carry is at farming and map awareness. Defending him in lane only gets you so far if he's terrible with his hero and/or last hitting. Or its difficult to roam as he's so busy failing at last hitting that he won't look at the map and if you're not there to bail him out he likely dies.

On that note and as somebody who wants to get better as and enjoys support the most, are there any pointers people can give to dual laning as practically every guide out there about laning deals with tri lanes. I suppose that sounds like a basic question, but I'd like some pointers as there's obviously stuff I'm not doing to the best of my ability in order to more easily win my lane so that I can possibly roam without risk of my carry being in danger.

[Deleted]

On that note and as somebody who wants to get better as and enjoys support the most, are there any pointers people can give to dual laning as practically every guide out there about laning deals with tri lanes. I suppose that sounds like a basic question, but I'd like some pointers as there's obviously stuff I'm not doing to the best of my ability in order to more easily win my lane so that I can possibly roam without risk of my carry being in danger.

Considering dual safe lane vs solo offlaner, you (unfortunately) largely depend on your carry abilities and mindset, exactly as you said. If he is extremely passive, you can't really count on his help. If he is suicidal, you can't really leave him alone in most matchups.
If he is somewhat balanced player, I usually try to zone the enemy out of the lane. Constantly hit him, use slowing spells or stuns to put a pressure on him, even trade blows if I'm sure the carry will come and help me if needed. If the lane is pushed too far, stack and pull (or better yet tell it to the jungler / other support) and then try to circle around to determine if he has wards (or just try to deward, the radiant safe lane ward above the rune spawn is probably the most common warding place today). If yes, deward it. That usually helps to keep the enemy at his own tower or risk dying. In this situation, you are pretty much free to rotate mid.
Another important point is to carry a TP scroll. Early game people often fight near or even under the enemy towers, a quick TP from CM / lina / whatever can easily turn the tide of battle.
Hero choice plays a role as well, that might come as no surprise, but my friends sometimes pick support heroes who have no presence in lane whatsoever or only in certain aggressive matchups and then just run around the lane, get hit and do nothing but leech xp. Melee heroes like treant, sand king, omniknight are not exactly cut out to be the "secure the carry freefarm" hero choices, at least not on dual lane. On the other hand, ranged heroes with slows / stuns like cm, lich, lina, wr, skywrath work quite well.
With ranged heroes in mind, it's important to know how to safely harass other ranged heroes on the lane without all the creeps jumping on you (which in the end helps push the lane towards the enemy tower -> the wrong way). That is done by running away from the creeps, issuing the attack order on the enemy hero, then running back to creeps and attacking the hero, the creeps won't attack you this way. How this works is that each time you issue an attack order on enemy hero, all enemy creeps in 500 range aggro on you, but this check has 2 seconds cooldown. This way, you can stand between the creeps and still attack the enemy ranged hero, effectively nuking him from the lane. Sorry if you already know this, I'm not sure how much have you played, don't take this the wrong way if you consider this basic dota. I just think it's really important in lane control.

[Deleted]

I can't think of a less effective and more useless mid than PA.

And yet that's where she's played in pro games whenever she's picked. Admittedly, that isn't exactly often, but as we've been over before in this thread, I'm sure you know heroes much better than the pro teams do

[StrawberryZebra]

Heroes like SF are the way to go if you truly believe that you dont belong at lower rating, if you are good you are going to stomp.

As has already been pointed out, SF is dependent on his team mates to get kills later on in the game, he's got nothing to make people hold still and be killed. I'm sure he works up to a point, but you'd probably be much better off with someone like Ember Spirit or Slark, or hell even Riki if you're at an MMR that low. Super snowbally ganking heroes can take over games very easily if you're far better than your opponents, (And of course you are. Its your crappy team mates and intentional feeders that are holding you back! ).

On that note and as somebody who wants to get better as and enjoys support the most, are there any pointers people can give to dual laning as practically every guide out there about laning deals with tri lanes. I suppose that sounds like a basic question, but I'd like some pointers as there's obviously stuff I'm not doing to the best of my ability in order to more easily win my lane so that I can possibly roam without risk of my carry being in danger.

Its hard to give specifics, dual lanes depend on a lot of factors, but I'll give it a try anyway. This is probably going to end up stating the obvious, but here goes!

The first, and by far the most important thing, is to have presence it the lane. You should constantly be looking to land free hits on the enemy when they can't retaliate. The best time to do this is when they're in their attack animation for a last hit. They either cancel it and miss the last hit, or they take the hit and can't hit you back before. Best case is they both give up the last hit and take free damage. Obviously this is more applicable to ranged heroes than to melee, but you can still get off a few cheeky hits as melee if you play it well. You also want to be doing those usual support things like denying creeps and maintaining equilibrium and so on. Always make sure you're doing something, there's absolutely nothing worse than a support who's just standing around leeching XP. Don't be that guy. No one likes that guy.

Hero picks play a pretty big part, and probably decide how you should be wanting to play the lane - Even if you can't play it that way for various reasons. Obviously if you've got a very aggressive setup like Jug + Venomancer you want to be trying to get kills as often as possible. Drow + Silencer? Harass them every time they come close. Tiny + Centaur? Go all in at every opportunity.

Then you'll need to look at how the carry wants to play the lane. Is he in a forward position and looking to contest creeps or make aggressive trades? Then you should be too, especially in 2v1 and 2v2 lanes. Is he playing defensively to avoid taking free damage or being all-inned? Then you should be too. If he's being reckless, aggressive and generally playing stupid then you should be leaving him to die alone. The easiest way to stay in-step with him is to draw a mental line from him across the lane, if you're stood on that line with him then you're in the right place. If you're too far behind the line he's vulnerable to being attacked when you're too far away to help. The bad case here is he gets hits from two or more opposing laners while you're unable to retaliate. The worst case is he gets all-inned and you're too far away to prevent it. Likewise if you're too far forward then you're vulnerable to being attacked while he can't help, and much the same things apply.

The next thing to take into account is the lane setup. Are you going 2v1? 2v3? 2v2? You'll want to play more aggressively when you've got a numbers advantage and defensively when you're at a numbers disadvantage. You also want to consider the lane you're in too, if you're in the safe lane then you should be stacking and pulling as and when needed. If you also happen to have a numbers advantage, then you can look to try force the other laner out of XP range. The best way of doing this is to position yourself between him and the creep wave and attack if he comes forward. Just be careful when the next wave is coming in, you don't want them to be hitting you.

If you're in the hard lane then you'll probably struggle to push them out of XP range, it can be done but you'll be in constant danger if you try playing too aggressive. If its possiible look to try and contest them pulling the jungle camps, you can ward them to stop the spawns, of course, but you can't count on the other team not to bother dewarding. Depending on the rest of your team, it can also be worth stacking Ancients if you get the opportunity (If you're Dire especially). Just make sure they're warded up though, you don't want them to be stolen before your team can cash in on them.

When it comes to roaming, its almost always a risk you're taking. Before you even consider it make sure you're playing a Hero that is a suitable roamer. A Hero like Venge or Earthshaker can practically serve up kills on a silver platter, especially if your allied laner has some CC or burst damage to follow up with. There's no use trying to gank people as Omniknight, you've got all the wrong tools for the job.
You're risking losing your personal XP from lane, while this does mean your carry is now getting all of the XP, it does mean if your roaming is unsuccessful, that you can fall behind. Depending on the game, this can be a huge determent, especially if you keep falling further behind, you end up being a free kill to almost anyone on the other team. You're also putting your carry at risk too, so make sure he knows you're gone and that he should play safe. Though this risk can be minimised by warding up before you go and by making sure he's got an advantage over the other teams laners. It doesn't reduce the risk to zero, but it does keep it as low as it can be. If the situation allows, you can even take your carry with you, ones like CK especially are fantastic for securing kills.
Don't just roam aimlessly, have a goal in mind before you even set off. Keep an eye on other lanes, mid especially, and look for the opportunity to get ganks off. Using Smoke will help you get into position without being seen, but sometimes taking a route around wards can let you pop up from unexpected angles, especially if there's no risk of running into the other teams jungler while you're at it.
If the other team does have a jungler, you can look to try find him and kill him. If you can ward up before hand so you know where to find him you can score some very easy kills this way, especially on ones that need to tank the creeps themselves and are typically running with less than full health. If you know where to find him, but probably shouldn't engage alone, bring your carry or mid to gank too.

[Sorcereria]

I'd argue about having wrong tools as Omni, everything can be done in your favor if you look for opportunity. The slow and heal/dmg can be a godsend. Play agressive.

Some heroes you have to play defensivly to gain advantage at certain point, some heroes need to find their windows, else if played def you cant retaliate back later.
Important factor is not how scary you are to your opponents but how scary you can make you LOOK LIKE for them.

[EqualWin]

And yet that's where she's played in pro games whenever she's picked. Admittedly, that isn't exactly often, but as we've been over before in this thread, I'm sure you know heroes much better than the pro teams do

just because pros (arteezy mostly) make her work doesnt mean she's that good, makes me sick to see those wanna be arteezy PA/Naga mid





omni is one of the best supports at low mmr, because people barely do bkb. and " never "will counter you with difussal. roams support are good too, mid never expect ganks etc

[Deleted]

just because pros (arteezy mostly) make her work doesnt mean she's that good, makes me sick to see those wanna be arteezy PA/Naga mid





omni is one of the best supports at low mmr, because people barely do bkb. and " never "will counter you with difussal. roams support are good too, mid never expect ganks etc

PA makes a ton of sense mid. You want lvl 2 ult before you even do relevant damage, and ideally you want to be able to max Evasion very quickly to get the most out of it before it's made irrelevant by MKBs. Combined with the fact that she has an excellent harass tool and is hard to drive out of lane, the only thing she really lacks is major wave clear and rune control, which is irrelevant when you can just bottle-crow forever.

[Deleted]

PA makes a ton of sense mid. You want lvl 2 ult before you even do relevant damage, and ideally you want to be able to max Evasion very quickly to get the most out of it before it's made irrelevant by MKBs. Combined with the fact that she has an excellent harass tool and is hard to drive out of lane, the only thing she really lacks is major wave clear and rune control, which is irrelevant when you can just bottle-crow forever.

Just a question, are you this guy: http://www.dotabuff.com/players/133334423? Because I played with him once I think.

[EqualWin]

PA makes a ton of sense mid. You want lvl 2 ult before you even do relevant damage, and ideally you want to be able to max Evasion very quickly to get the most out of it before it's made irrelevant by MKBs. Combined with the fact that she has an excellent harass tool and is hard to drive out of lane, the only thing she really lacks is major wave clear and rune control, which is irrelevant when you can just bottle-crow forever.

but still most people dont farm enough, and still go for BF build. which sucks if you dont use it for flash farm. if people went bottle phase drums basher bkb etc and start killing people it would be ok.

pa safelane with midas you get the lvl fast and still can get bf at a decent time.

anyway there aren't so many PA/nagas mid anymore. but it was annoying when there was pa mid pickers everygame cuz arteezy won few games with it

[Deletedaccount1]

Just hit 1000 hours played. If anyone wants to send me some arcana to mark the occasion feel free.

[StrawberryZebra]

I'd argue about having wrong tools as Omni, everything can be done in your favor if you look for opportunity. The slow and heal/dmg can be a godsend. Play agressive.

If he has points in his aura, maxed out his heal and maybe if he has an Orb of Venom. Then if he manages to get onto another lane unseen and if the opposing laner is slow to react to him so he can get in melee range and if Omni's ally has some way of capitalising on him being there then Omni just might be able to gank well. There's a lot of if involved roaming as Omni.
Compare that to someone like Venge who can come in with a stun, use her scream if they try juke into the Fog of war or up hill and then use nether swap to force them to try escape again. Its a far more reliable gank, much harder to escape from and as a result far more likely to end in a kill.

To be clear, I'm not saying Omniknight is a bad support. I'm saying he's bad at ganking other lanes specifically, and bad at roaming in general. He is, however, good at assisting allied ganks, ones that involve tower dives especially, but he's poor at setting them up himself.

[Deleted]

Just a question, are you this guy: http://www.dotabuff.com/players/133334423? Because I played with him once I think.

Nah, that ain't me. I'd rather cut myself than pick Tinker.

[PizzaSHARK]

And yet that's where she's played in pro games whenever she's picked. Admittedly, that isn't exactly often, but as we've been over before in this thread, I'm sure you know heroes much better than the pro teams do

I know pro teams don't seem to pick to counter or punish extremely greedy plays very often, except for Newbee and VG, I guess. PA has zero lane presence mid, no lane control, she isn't especially good at last hitting, basically all she can do is stand by her tower and flip daggers. She has no escape button, she's squishy as fuck, she's basically food to any of the lane bully solo mids, any duo mid, or even just a good set of rotating supports.

PA is so much better utilized in a duo or trilane where her crazy uptime on dagger slow and vision can actually be utilized effectively.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd argue about having wrong tools as Omni, everything can be done in your favor if you look for opportunity. The slow and heal/dmg can be a godsend. Play agressive.

Omni is very good in aggressive duo lanes. Basically any hero that can either punch the crap out of people with Repel making them immune to stuns and slows, or someone that can keep people in touching distance so you can land Purification bombs. Or both. One point in Degen Aura plus an Orb of Venom is also equivalent to 22% slow, which is pretty strong considering it's all passive.

- - - Updated - - -

PA makes a ton of sense mid. You want lvl 2 ult before you even do relevant damage, and ideally you want to be able to max Evasion very quickly to get the most out of it before it's made irrelevant by MKBs. Combined with the fact that she has an excellent harass tool and is hard to drive out of lane, the only thing she really lacks is major wave clear and rune control, which is irrelevant when you can just bottle-crow forever.

She has no harass tool. Dagger flipping at heroes is beyond worthless as a harassment method, and she's VERY easy to bully out of lane. If you send her mid and the enemy team is not literally fucking retarded, she will get minimal farm and minimal XP relative to a regular duo lane or trilane setup.

QoP, chickenmage, Lina, Bane, Bloodseeker, even fucking Panda will all laugh her right the fuck out of the lane if she doesn't receive constant babysitting by supports, which defeats the purpose of sending her mid to begin with.

What the fuck is PA gonna do when Panda stomps every time she comes in for a last hit and he's standing between her the creeps? She can't fucking manfight him, he'll flatten her. What's she gonna do when QoP flips a dagger at her every time she walks in close for a last hit? Even bottlecrow won't compensate for that incoming damage. What's she gonna do when chickenmage gets every single rune and spams arcane bolts at her?

Fuck, Bloodseeker could just stand between her and the creeps and smack the shit out of her in a manfight anytime he wanted to, she's not gonna win that fight because he's gonna hit a fuckton harder with bloodrage and he can just murder a creep or two to fully heal himself anytime he's getting anywhere near low on health.

PA mid is a motherfucking joke. Even fucking Omniknight is a better mid than her.

[EqualWin]

I dont think shes a joke, the blink is decent as escape, with dagger lvl 2 last hitting is easy (just last hit with it). the evasion helps a lot but that's it, I dont think she's a good mid, but she can handle it and have a decent farm.

[PizzaSHARK]

I dont think shes a joke, the blink is decent as escape, with dagger lvl 2 last hitting is easy (just last hit with it). the evasion helps a lot but that's it, I dont think she's a good mid, but she can handle it and have a decent farm.

To be fair, even Crystal Maiden is a good mid if you expand it that far, especially with how overpowered bottlecrow is. If you're last hitting with only dagger, you're not gonna get very much farm relative to putting her in more normal lane setups, and if you're trying to approach for last hits, any halfway competent mid will just shit all over you.

But I guess it's okay, because you can always just ignore all that and bottlecrow. God I wish they'd just properly nerf that mechanic already.

[Sorcereria]

Anyone knows exact number in time for bottlecrow with empty bottle and 1 charge?

[Longview]

Anyone knows exact number in time for bottlecrow with empty bottle and 1 charge?

from this spot to refill

walking
1 - 22s
0 - 32s
flying with boost
1 - 15s
0 - 19s
flying without boost
1 - 22s
0 - 32s

[Sorcereria]

Thats pretty disgusting low amount of time. I assumed it's more like 1min.

[Lysah]

PA can get kills easy at level 7, even against heroes like Clock that are supposed to be anti melee. Wasting her early game potential on mid and bfury is a mistake and should only be done if you absolutely need late game power because the enemy has heroes like lolvoid.

She is about the biggest wrecking ball from ~10-30 minutes if the enemy team doesn't have massive nukes and CC like lion/lina/skywrath to burst her down and she doesn't need items to do it. High armor, huge dodge, massive damage from two of the best steroids in the game, a spammable slow that also serves as a pretty good nuke, and a gap closer baked into one of her steroids that lets her easily chase people even if they try to stun n' run.

[EqualWin]

Thats pretty disgusting low amount of time. I assumed it's more like 1min.

it takes around 1 min to get the bottle refill and get it back (38? sec if u do it right, boost courier speed when it has 0 charges)

I might be wrong.