1. #1761
    That's not the point, the point is that the meta was never about supports and it will not be in the future. DotA2 is only being played the way you're seeing in pro games because many heroes are missing. Heroes like TA who force people to change.

    I can't even remember playing a game in DotA1 that had more than one support, now 2 a team is extremely common. You see why that's a problem - heroes like TA cut through them like butter with a hot knife and that whole thing. The meta will change and TA will not be picked much anymore, eventually.

    Personally, I can't wait. I've hated the current meta for a very long time. It's almost a copypasta of LoL meta, a game I left for a reason. How many games are sololong/ganker(spellcarry) mid/support+hyper(AD anyone?) carry short/jungler? Like every single one of them? Luckily heroes like TA and NA and cent and TC and kotl can completely change and shut down this type of play.




    As far as agility heroes go, if anyone is more powerful than he should be it's Morphling. That hero is absurdly stupid and impossible to kill, even if you have CC, a simple trick that shuts TA up pretty fast. But I still wouldn't call morph OP, I just think you should be able to silence him to stop morphSTR. I still think he's way better than TA.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-07-24 at 02:55 AM.
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  2. #1762
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    I'd call Morphling better because he's almost impossible to kill, but he doesn't reach instagib burst until he finishes EB. If you can delay that EB, Morphling's impact on the game will be relatively minor until he finishes it, and if you delay it long enough, shotgun won't have the impact it needs to have to make it worthwhile in the first place; if Morphling doesn't go for shotgun, he's relatively harmless until he gets farmed up. TA doesn't require farm at all because all of her insanity is based on her skills, not her items. PA is similar in a lot of ways - you can't deny her farm due to Stifling Dagger's absurdly low mana cost, her ulti is essentially there to significantly reduce her need for early damage items, and she gets a whopping 20% dodge from a single point in Blur.
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  3. #1763
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I'm only going off of what I see in pro games and both times I've seen those heroes picked it was a complete fucking curbstomp for the team that had them. Every single time.

    So if I can't base my opinion off of pro games, what the fuck am I gonna base it off of? Fucking pubs? Get real.
    Few games isn't particularly great sample size. Sniper has been picked like 3 times and his team stomped all games, does he need to be removed from -CM too? If any of the pro players actually thought PA or TA were too OP to get picked, you would see them banned every single time, but instead you base your opinion on one-sided games that were probably decided by a multitude of things other than the winning teams carry choice.
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  4. #1764
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Few games isn't particularly great sample size. Sniper has been picked like 3 times and his team stomped all games, does he need to be removed from -CM too? If any of the pro players actually thought PA or TA were too OP to get picked, you would see them banned every single time, but instead you base your opinion on one-sided games that were probably decided by a multitude of things other than the winning teams carry choice.
    No, in every case, the game was decided by TA/PA being picked. PA was picked as mid/late game answer to the enemy team's setup, but the fact remains that they couldn't shut down PA's farm because all she has to do is hide by the tower and flip daggers for free gold.

    The only way to not lose instantly to TA is to simply not have squishy heroes, and that means just by TA being on the other team, your team's options are already constricted in a way theirs ain't.
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  5. #1765
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    That's not the point, the point is that the meta was never about supports and it will not be in the future. DotA2 is only being played the way you're seeing in pro games because many heroes are missing. Heroes like TA who force people to change.
    Icefrog has specifically prioritized releasing the top competitive pick heroes first to get them all in as fast as possible. And honestly most of them are by now, Rubic probably being the last big one. Maybe visage except for the mana nerfs and that the trilane vs trilane thing never happens so much anymore and that is what he was designed for.

    PA isn't used at all in competative play since she is completely un reliable. Unless you get lucky with crits she just does less damage than morph or am period, and with far less utility.

    Also, one thing I havn't seen mentioned here is that there is a rumor going around (at competitive level, not just in pubs) that TA is somehow bugged and doing more damage than she should be. The nerf to refraction and pipe not blocking blink dagger completely destroyed how pub-stompy she was when she was released, so honestly a bit of a damage nerf would be enough to relegate her to the hardly-ever-used status again.

  6. #1766
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    No, in every case, the game was decided by TA/PA being picked. PA was picked as mid/late game answer to the enemy team's setup, but the fact remains that they couldn't shut down PA's farm because all she has to do is hide by the tower and flip daggers for free gold.

    The only way to not lose instantly to TA is to simply not have squishy heroes, and that means just by TA being on the other team, your team's options are already constricted in a way theirs ain't.
    A team can always ban TA if they feel like they are not able to shut her down, and seeing as no team has banned her yet (from what I remember) it seems like they think that other heroes in the pool are currently more powerful.
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  7. #1767
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orochiro View Post
    A team can always ban TA if they feel like they are not able to shut her down, and seeing as no team has banned her yet (from what I remember) it seems like they think that other heroes in the pool are currently more powerful.
    This is a good point.

    Also look at the heroes in that game. Invoker, Prophet and DS all made it through the ban phase so i'd like to know what was actually banned

  8. #1768
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    No, in every case, the game was decided by TA/PA being picked. PA was picked as mid/late game answer to the enemy team's setup, but the fact remains that they couldn't shut down PA's farm because all she has to do is hide by the tower and flip daggers for free gold.

    The only way to not lose instantly to TA is to simply not have squishy heroes, and that means just by TA being on the other team, your team's options are already constricted in a way theirs ain't.
    Stop exaggerating, it doesn't actually make you seem knowledgeable. Few games is still way too small sample to make any meaningful judgement on hero balance, and as of now PA is far from being more than a niche pick and TA will probably go slightly above that to situational ban/pick when teams adapt. Suggesting that being able to lasthits max 2 creeps/wave with Stifling Dagger makes a hero OP is just rather hilarious and not only because there's a handful of heroes that can do the same already.
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  9. #1769
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Stop exaggerating, it doesn't actually make you seem knowledgeable. Few games is still way too small sample to make any meaningful judgement on hero balance, and as of now PA is far from being more than a niche pick and TA will probably go slightly above that to situational ban/pick when teams adapt. Suggesting that being able to lasthits max 2 creeps/wave with Stifling Dagger makes a hero OP is just rather hilarious and not only because there's a handful of heroes that can do the same already.
    That's 2 creeps more than Morphling or AM or Lone Druid can kill per wave if the enemy team is being super aggressive. PA gets a free talisman of evasion for one point and her ulti, while chance-based, is still a lot of free damage and is fairly reliable combined with the attack speed buff on her blink strike and how effective she is at chasing. Sure, Morphling, Syllabear, and AM are a lot more deadly in the late game after they've farmed for 30 minutes, but PA is deadly at 10 minutes and can't really be completely shut out of a lane due to dagger flipping being essentially free. It's fucking stupid.



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    Why are there so many Furions that build him as a carry? Lothars, Midas, Agh's, and then straight into Rapier. He got blown the fuck up the second he had to step into a teamfight, and my Tide was fed enough that he couldn't push down a base tower or rax with me present. I have no idea what the fuck our Lich was doing with MoM, but then again there was a Sven with Mek and a QoP that died more than she killed anything.

    BRs are weird.
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  10. #1770
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    The only professional games I have seen with PA and TA are one sided pubstomp games with a clear difference in the skill of the teams where other factors contributed more than a TA / PA pick.

    PA has been picked about 3 times in pro dota 2 and is never ever picked in Dota 1. She just doesnt really have anything that makes her better than other agi carrys. The best thing she have is that she is pretty strong early game with 20% evasion and not needing that much + dmg items thanks to her ulti. Asking for her to be removed from CM just makes you look butthurt.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-24 at 05:51 PM ----------

    Your examples are like batshit off the walls. Its like there's always only one team in the game.

  11. #1771
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    That's 2 creeps more than Morphling or AM or Lone Druid can kill per wave if the enemy team is being super aggressive. PA gets a free talisman of evasion for one point and her ulti, while chance-based, is still a lot of free damage and is fairly reliable combined with the attack speed buff on her blink strike and how effective she is at chasing. Sure, Morphling, Syllabear, and AM are a lot more deadly in the late game after they've farmed for 30 minutes, but PA is deadly at 10 minutes and can't really be completely shut out of a lane due to dagger flipping being essentially free. It's fucking stupid.
    You don't match solo AM/Morph against agressive enemy lane, Sylla can skip pull creeps on offlanes and get farm anyway. You're just comparing apples and oranges here. None of those heroes have to commit to a fight like PA has to, and if your team doesn't have good teamfight advantage PA can't do shit without a BKB in teamfights early-midgame. Being able to get crappy farm on a crappy lane doesn't make a hard carry good, it's just one of those changes they made to PA a while back to turn her from a trash pick to a passable pick. You definitely won't be seeing PA removed from CM (or any sane person requesting it) but you might see minor buffs in somewhat distant future.
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  12. #1772
    My input!

    PA is garbage. Her passive resistance is to auto attacks which is NOT the typical weakness of agility heroes. She blinks on top of Lion and eats impale/finger and is dead because she has a whopping 1000 health mid game and devoted an entire skill slot to evasion, literally a wasted skill point against casters. There's also her dagger, while a great slow, also completely worthless against casters who can stand still and nuke you. And her blink strike? Gap closer, some damage, still not really game changing. Your entire kit is your ult, you click blink on that support caster and you kneel down and pray you get crit after crit, otherwise, you're dead.

    And that's not forgetting that this support also has a carry and/or hybrid hiding somewhere around the corner, ready to nuke you into oblivion the instant your BKB wears off if you've even farmed one by now, granted BKB as a first item will leave you pretty damage-less mid game. No one likes PA because to be viable she has to be lucky. Even Ogre isn't that dependant on RNG - sure multicasts are great, but he still has an awesome team buff, a great AoE slow, and a hard stun. He can also take a hit.


    TA is alright. If she's not countered she will have a good time, but she's pretty easy to counter. Part of being part of the "pro" scene is knowing how to pick your heroes in such a way that you don't let them last pick TA for a free win. PL is a better hero than both when farmed, and Luna is a better hero than both for getting farmed.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-07-24 at 05:17 PM.
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  13. #1773
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    Agree 100% with Lysah. PA is too f'n squishy against casters. While she has burst sequences with 1-2 really hard crits, sometimes, she is too easy to peel and flat out explode with nukers on your team. Lion and Lina both obliterate her, and she has no invisibility or passive health to survive through chain nukes. Since BKB is a meh first item, because even with crits you hit like a wet noodle for you glass cannon HP bar, Rhasta, Windrunner, etc, can just CC the hell out of you. To me, she's really just a pubstomp hero.

    And, TA suffers from the same problem. At least she has Refraction, so she can survive a couple of seconds, or slay dumb teams (saw a Lina throw Laguna Blade into refraction...) but still. As soon as it falls off, she only has a small HP bar and an invis that doesn't allow her to move. Problem being 7 instances of damage are ANY damage. Any sort of DoT, quick attacks, etc, destroys her.
    Still of the opinion that other Agility heroes are better carries.

  14. #1774
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillpapps View Post
    The only professional games I have seen with PA and TA are one sided pubstomp games with a clear difference in the skill of the teams where other factors contributed more than a TA / PA pick.
    So Quantic is just that much better than Na'Vi that they can just shitstomp them without even trying?
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  15. #1775
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    So Quantic is just that much better than Na'Vi that they can just shitstomp them without even trying?
    What game is this?

  16. #1776
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    So Quantic is just that much better than Na'Vi that they can just shitstomp them without even trying?
    That game yes. Na'Vi played really really bad while Quantic played really good. Na'Vi was no where near a top performance.
    Na'Vi vs Quantic - The Defense Game 2

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-25 at 06:57 AM ----------

    With your logic then 5 support teams should be overpowered and the new thing since Zenith used that to stomp World Elite. Or maybe Gyrocopter or Phantom Lancer is the best heroes since they were used in stomps aswell.

  17. #1777
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lillpapps View Post
    That game yes. Na'Vi played really really bad while Quantic played really good. Na'Vi was no where near a top performance.
    Na'Vi vs Quantic - The Defense Game 2

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-25 at 06:57 AM ----------

    With your logic then 5 support teams should be overpowered and the new thing since Zenith used that to stomp World Elite. Or maybe Gyrocopter or Phantom Lancer is the best heroes since they were used in stomps aswell.
    No, my logic is that heroes shouldn't be given free excuse to be brokenly overpowered because they have "counter heroes." You can't ban or pick every fucking hero in the game, you should have to balance your fucking game, not just go "oh well they could only ban five of the seven heroes they had to ban, guess they lose automatically."

    Yeah, Na'Vi played like shit compared to other games of theirs, but I don't think they were expecting Quantic to basically be allowed to cheat in that game by being able to select a hero that autowins the game from 15-30 mins, it probably threw them for a loop.
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  18. #1778
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    No, my logic is that heroes shouldn't be given free excuse to be brokenly overpowered because they have "counter heroes." You can't ban or pick every fucking hero in the game, you should have to balance your fucking game, not just go "oh well they could only ban five of the seven heroes they had to ban, guess they lose automatically."

    Yeah, Na'Vi played like shit compared to other games of theirs, but I don't think they were expecting Quantic to basically be allowed to cheat in that game by being able to select a hero that autowins the game from 15-30 mins, it probably threw them for a loop.
    If she autowins games for 15 minutes, then she'd be in every single game, or banned every single time. As Lysah said, the meta is completely different. The meta was huge support/pushing roles, and great gankers like TA fuck up that strategy.

    And, just had a terrible night.
    Game 1: Playing as Silencer, with my rl buddy playing TA on my lane. (For some reason, AA decided he was solo mid...)
    AA loses HORRIBLY to mid broodmother, and bottom gives Juggernaut/Lich first blood at the second creep wave. Juggernaut proceeds to go 20-2 by the end of the game because he was 7-1 before he even came top, and had phase boots compared to our normal boots. Terrible game. Sad thing was we were destroying Drow/Rubick top because of psi blades and Curse harass.

    Game 2: Played as Pugna, buddy played AA. Even though our first 3 picks were Pugna, AA, and Brood, the last 2 chose Lion and Vengeful. No idea why, but we had a 4 support team while the other team had 3 carries and a great ganking setup. We pushed like hell, but Lion and Venge fed like nobodies business and Brood was never with the team for teamfights because he was always pushing. Again, terrible game. They just traded towers for teamfight wins until they were so fed they could just kill our whole base while we waited to respawn. surprisingly, I was 4-6-4 at the end, with our team having 15 kills. This was pretty much due to the fact that the other team never stunned or stopped my ultimate, so I would just drain someones life away until they were dead. Again, not even impressive players, just all around fail on my teams. Even me and my buddy were making bad plays. Just a bad night.

    Game 3: Earthshaker. Buddy played Gyrocopter and was soloing bot because Axe was jungling. For some reason, their PL was way - WAY overcommiting trying to kill Gyro, and didn't pick up doppelwalk until 4. He died 2-3 times just because of this. Up top, I was with Jakiro, and the game seemed to be doing alright but our opponents realized as Slithice and Clinkz they could just net and Searing Arrows someone to death with Slithices -armor nuke. Ended up dying a couple times to this, asking Brewmaster (soloing mid) to gank. He never responded, and never came to gank top. At about 15 minutes, he just quit and abandoned. Awesome night. So glad I spent 2 hours playing such crappy games.

    It wasn't 100% my teams fault, I know, as I'm not the best Earthshaker player, but we asked for ganks and never got them, and he lost his lane miserably anyway. (first time I saw Sand King he was 4-1, level 11 and had blink dagger and I instantly died when he appeared on the lane.)

    Good nights and bad nights, DotA is a cruel mistress. >.<

  19. #1779
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    Yeah, you have your good days and bad days. Lately I've been having issues with DotA letting me play at all. Seems like I have to restart the game four or five times before it'll actually join the queue when I click Join Match, and half the time it bugs out after a game and insists the game is still going. Beta is beta, I guess.

    Here, have this. It'll cheer you up:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
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  20. #1780
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Yeah, you have your good days and bad days. Lately I've been having issues with DotA letting me play at all. Seems like I have to restart the game four or five times before it'll actually join the queue when I click Join Match, and half the time it bugs out after a game and insists the game is still going. Beta is beta, I guess.
    Holy crap, that never occured to me. That if you hit an illusion it would deal 400% damage for the whole spill. Insane.

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