1. #1841
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Well, most of the time I see someone let a team get Furion, they also got someone else that can jungle, so Furion lanes instead.

    Re: Clinkz. Clinkz only gets strong enough to backdoor towers in the late game. His real utility is the huge DPS he can achieve in the midgame with Strafe+Searing Arrows and is, IMO, probably the only real reason to take him over a lot of other ranged hard carries. He can be slippery, but since most people won't build him with survivability, he's also really squishy... dust him, disable him, and it's an easy kill, and even with 522 movespeed he can't cross the map as easily as Furion can.

    Furion's also very squishy and subject to getting splattered all over the lane, but that's the only reason I can think of him not being taken out of captains mode (Lycan's in the same boat, I guess, since he's seen in almost every game as well.) But when the Furion is played well, he's useful and powerful throughout the entire game. In the early game he can teleport to a tower to defend it from a push or to assist his team with a push, and then teleport back to wherever he was before when it's done. In the midgame, Sprout is useful as hell (force enemies to sacrifice item slots for tangos/blades or get stuck in a sprout, and other items usually have priority over Force Staff) and his ulti can cause some pretty significant damage to heroes - it's not unusual to see his ulti hit the other team's supports for 30%-50% of their HP and it's also having the side effect of pushing out the lanes, requiring heroes to port to defend towers. By late game, he's gotten plenty of farm and can afford to buyback at whim and can afford items to make him useful in late-game teamfights (sheepstick being the most obvious choice.)

    He's overpowered because of the obscene map presence Teleport gives him, from very early in the game. As with virtually everything in MOBA games, the nerfs don't have to be huge. Like others said, simply increasing the cooldown by 5 seconds could be enough. He just needs a little extra time between Teleports to give the enemy team a chance to respond and setup a gank on him.
    Clinkz really isn't that squishy when talking about agility carries. Agi as a main stat gives a good armor amount and his ult gives him quite the chunk of max HP if you eat the right creeps. Also, once he hits about 8-9 his burst in the mid-game is ridiculous. Also, Tinker with TP boots has more map presence than he does, IMO. And he really can just March of the Machines 1-2 times and TP away. Granted, he can't do that for a while, but "early" in the game, TP has a HUGE cooldown. And if you spend so many levels on it, your treants suck/no levels in sprout.

  2. #1842
    Clinkz is the king of backdooring because you can't get rid of him. You can chase Furion away, Clinkz can hit all 3 lanes so fast that you really can't do much about it but hide in your base waiting for him. Though it's very rare to find a Clinkz who is played well.

    I give Furion's strength his ability to turn 2v2 into 2v3 early-mid game. That's about it. If he doesn't use his global pressure to create and win skirmishes early game he almots always falls off and his team usually loses. His ability to push lanes and teleport across the map to force enemy TP scrolls certainly helps drag a game out and give his team time to farm, but, other heroes can do that, too.
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  3. #1843
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    Why is M5 even allowed into tournaments? I've watched the past five or six of their games that are on the joinDOTA channel and they're fucking terrible.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-29 at 07:16 PM ----------

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  4. #1844
    High Overlord Ultraviolet Harmonies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Why is M5 even allowed into tournaments? I've watched the past five or six of their games that are on the joinDOTA channel and they're fucking terrible.
    I wouldn't say they're terrible, and I wouldn't say that would be any reason to stop inviting them to tournaments. They are at their best during LAN-settings.

    However, there's been a large display of unprofessional people in M5. PGG is the most notorious I guess, with (recently) his early ragequit against Darer, the six minute GG against EHOME, Dreamhack rules being changed due to complaints from PGG and the "ezy"-incident:


  5. #1845
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ultraviolet Harmonies View Post
    I wouldn't say they're terrible, and I wouldn't say that would be any reason to stop inviting them to tournaments. They are at their best during LAN-settings.

    However, there's been a large display of unprofessional people in M5. PGG is the most notorious I guess, with (recently) his early ragequit against Darer, the six minute GG against EHOME, Dreamhack rules being changed due to complaints from PGG and the "ezy"-incident:

    Yeah, M5's basically the IdrA of DotA, I guess. Weren't they the guys that got caught pausing to let streams catch up so they can basically cheat?

    I think it's becoming a general rule of pubbing that if they don't speak and understand English at least a little... they're worthless. Even if they're competent at the game, being unable to communicate with them effectively (frantically pinging the map doesn't provide enough info) is a huge liability against competent enemy teams. I seriously don't understand why developers (it's not just Valve) are so paranoid of instituting IP restrictions. If you don't speak English, you really shouldn't be on the US servers, because everyone else on them does speak English. I wouldn't queue on the Brazilian server without speaking Portuguese, so why are they letting them queue on ours without them being able to speak the language? It's so frustrating to lose games because you can't coordinate with half your team because of a language barrier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
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  6. #1846
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultraviolet Harmonies View Post
    However, there's been a large display of unprofessional people in M5. PGG is the most notorious I guess, with (recently) his early ragequit against Darer, the six minute GG against EHOME, Dreamhack rules being changed due to complaints from PGG and the "ezy"-incident:
    'Gonna admit that was pretty hilarious...but I don't really blame them. Scourge was outmatched in all 3 lanes and it was obvious, there was no way they could handle skirmishes at that point in the game and it was only going to get worse. Low armor strength hero against double armor reduction nukers? WR against Leshrac plain and simple, at least their double mid was an *okay* idea but they screwed up the free first blood and once QoP gets bottle and level 5 you lose the lane.

    I probably would have gg'd as well. A no-carry lineup getting crushed five minutes into the game isn't going to go any other way.

    I'm assuming the "ezy" was in a tournament game? Pretty uncalled for from higher level players who should be setting an example for their viewers; probably the main reason allchatting was banned back when I played CAL. Other than that I don't really see the issue, unless you have more examples =p
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-07-30 at 06:11 AM.
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  7. #1847
    High Overlord Ultraviolet Harmonies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    'Gonna admit that was pretty hilarious...but I don't really blame them. Scourge was outmatched in all 3 lanes and it was obvious, there was no way they could handle skirmishes at that point in the game and it was only going to get worse. Low armor strength hero against double armor reduction nukers? WR against Leshrac plain and simple, at least their double mid was an *okay* idea but they screwed up the free first blood and once QoP gets bottle and level 5 you lose the lane.

    I probably would have gg'd as well. A no-carry lineup getting crushed five minutes into the game isn't going to go any other way.
    I doubt M5 had planned to play this game in any type of serious manner from the start. After losing against Mousesports' fed TA 0-2, they showed up 30 minutes late against EHOME, who wanted to play them for practice. They draft three supports, Pudge and Alleria. I don't know, some teams are incredibly secretive before TI2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I'm assuming the "ezy" was in a tournament game? Pretty uncalled for from higher level players who should be setting an example for their viewers; probably the main reason allchatting was banned back when I played CAL. Other than that I don't really see the issue, unless you have more examples =p
    Starladder.TV Winners Bracket semi final against Darer. Moscow Five showed up 45 minutes late to this game.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_R9TiV2oWM#t=52m10s

    уфын is russian for "easy".

    I'm not trying to portray M5 or PGG in a bad light, I watched his stream when it was still up and I think he's a good player - with an attitude problem. With Vigoss AWOL since StarLadder, ddd1ms being arrested and PGG in heat over badmouthing, I don't really see any motivation for them to keep their invite to TI2 - I'd much rather see a team like Next.kz instead.

    As for "more examples", PGG has a history of this sort of behavior, and M5 has had similar incidents in their League of Legends division. It even went as far as the organization issuing an apology video. At one point the M5 squad flat out refused to practice with PGG. Here's a statement from M5 owner ddd1ms (sorry if you do not speak russian): http://prodota.ru/news/statementfromddd1ms/

    To pile on this further, there were accusations of stream cheating - with one particular game in mind: Absolute Legends vs. M5 in The Defense (if I'm not mistaken, which I may be). M5 paused while running to their lanes; aL were planning on level 1 Roshan. One and a half minute later, the game is unpaused - and all M5 players suddenly change their course towards the Rosh pit. I don't know all the facts, but I know there's tons of bad blood between M5 and Darer.

  8. #1848
    Interesting. I didn't want to assume there was an attitude problem because of one incident, but if it's a recurring theme, then =p

    I still don't think rage quitting is necessarily bad manners. The trash talk and potential cheating definitely is, though. I will admit that going into a game meant for practice, screwing around, and quitting ten minutes later is kind of a bad deal.
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  9. #1849
    High Overlord Ultraviolet Harmonies's Avatar
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    I agree that a rq does not necessarily equal bad manners - as long as the other team is granted a victory I'd rank it on the same level as calling out GG before the game is really over.

    It's also a great stance to have to not judge someone by a single occurrence. In these days people change favourite teams overnight (with the unstable rosters of the top teams, I can understand) - with people screaming at Natus Vincere for throwing aka losing a single game. I think there's a separate thread for every single rq, flame and missed black hole that PGG has displayed over at the JoinDotA site as well as GGnet. It's easy to exaggerate these things.

  10. #1850
    Well I know first hand that sometimes the game gets to you as well =p

    From people killing you and living with single digit health to getting bashlocked to death by a level 1 void to missing the killing auto attack on someone because of a hill, sometimes no matter what you do the game goes right for them and wrong for you and you need to just get up and take a break before another hole appears in the wall =)
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  11. #1851
    High Overlord Ultraviolet Harmonies's Avatar
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    I've had my fair share of rage-induced moments in gaming. However, DotA is different. I don't ever solo queue anymore, so that removes most of the cause I suppose. I've probably wrecked more keyboards than what I can remember playing Counter-Strike and Quake 3 Arena. It's great to have a small team of players with whom you can discuss why you lose and how to prevent it from happening again. I'm bordering a thousand games very soon, no left games yet.

  12. #1852
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    The whole Dota 2 pro scene is really unprofessional. If you get payed to play you can atleast be on time for events, fix your computers and not pausing for hours. The pro's have to remember that its the viewers that pay their salaries.
    I cant see how Dota 2 or LoL ever would get viewers that dont play the games.

  13. #1853
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    I don't necessarily have a problem with losing because of others (as long as they say something like: 'sorry not my day' or whatever, instead of OMG Y U NO GANK).

    I mean...everyone can have a bad day. What annoys me the most is that when someone loses their lane, some other guy starts yelling at them for being the biggest noob in history of DotA (or LoL for that matter). I mean...that guy never lost a lane before? o_O

  14. #1854
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Well I know first hand that sometimes the game gets to you as well =p

    From people killing you and living with single digit health to getting bashlocked to death by a level 1 void to missing the killing auto attack on someone because of a hill, sometimes no matter what you do the game goes right for them and wrong for you and you need to just get up and take a break before another hole appears in the wall =)
    Survived a gank from Lion and crew at low levels as Rubick because I took a point in Null Aura. After running through a creep wave and juking around a forest, I had 2 HP left with three heroes chasing me and I made it back to the fountain safely.

    There was another game where I was solo top as Omniknight and Furion, Dazzle, and Chaos Knight repeatedly tried to gank me and I got away with hardly any damage taken four times in a row.

    It's fucking frustrating to be on the receiving end of those stupid little escapes, but it's hilarious when you look at them in hindsight.

    ---------- Post added 2012-07-30 at 04:36 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Waervyn View Post
    I don't necessarily have a problem with losing because of others (as long as they say something like: 'sorry not my day' or whatever, instead of OMG Y U NO GANK).

    I mean...everyone can have a bad day. What annoys me the most is that when someone loses their lane, some other guy starts yelling at them for being the biggest noob in history of DotA (or LoL for that matter). I mean...that guy never lost a lane before? o_O
    Yeah. I had a recent game where an enemy Razor was talking trash about his team in allchat (woot, I got bingo!), saying how they were just awful etc etc etc and how he's gonna go afk in fountain now, etc. I pointed out that he wasn't doing well at any point in that game and that he wasn't particularly good, and he responds with the typical "LOL stfu baddie/kid/son" e-thug nonsense.

    I point out his items, his KDA, and the fact that he lost his lane to a Pudge that spent most of the game roaming while he stayed in mid as evidence that he's not very good and he then calls me a tryhard.

    I don't fucking understand these people, and I understand why their shit attitudes are tolerated even less. Frankly, people like that a cancer in the body of gaming and need to be forcibly removed. If you continually blame everyone and everything but yourself, you will never improve. Yeah, some heroes are genuinely overpowered. Yeah, sometimes you get dealt from the bottom of the deck and get a team of RUs/BRs that suck and can't communicate. Yes, sometimes you really did play well and your team's loss was absolutely not your fault.

    But if you continually blame everything and everyone but yourself, you can't criticize your own play and look at places where you could have played better. Sometimes the only reason your team lost was because you kept fucking up in places where, if you hadn't been screwing up, you could have made enough of a difference to win the game anyway, regardless of how bad the rest of your team is.

    But seriously, why the fuck are these shitbags tolerated? Why aren't they instantly banned?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
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  15. #1855
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    But seriously, why the fuck are these shitbags tolerated? Why aren't they instantly banned?
    Because game is in beta and valve can't spend much time to cleans trolls from the game. I expect otherwise once game goes live. Also instantly banning players is not a good business practice.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-07-30 at 11:34 AM.

  16. #1856
    Warchief Velthy's Avatar
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    Does anyone got a beta key that can PM me with, like it was with other Valve betas (2 keys for each beta player)?

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  17. #1857
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Yeah, some heroes are genuinely overpowered.
    It's funny how you keep slipping these into your text no matter how out of context they are.

    The whole Dota 2 pro scene is really unprofessional. If you get payed to play you can atleast be on time for events, fix your computers and not pausing for hours. The pro's have to remember that its the viewers that pay their salaries.
    I cant see how Dota 2 or LoL ever would get viewers that dont play the games.
    It's true to an extent, but no amount of professionalism is going to stop teams from needing a pause from time to time in online tournaments because of a DC or crash. Happens more often in dota partially because the amount of players is greater than, say, SC2.

    What you fail to grasp is most teams outside of China and some teams in CIS/SEA don't get paid nearly enough to actually make a decent living out of Dota, even less so do that and invest 1500 into a new computer. For some teams tournament winnings are most of the actual income, and many players need to study or work. I'm not making any more excuses for players, some of them could certainly put more effort into their act, but I do understand that sometimes shit happens.

    I've heard it being said quite a few times that having your hobby turned into a job isn't nearly as wonderful as outsiders like to think.



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  18. #1858
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post

    I've heard it being said quite a few times that having your hobby turned into a job isn't nearly as wonderful as outsiders like to think.
    Yeah, this would be absolutely horrible for me. I play when I want to...if you have to play to make income from streams etc. it immediately would lose all the fun for me. I don't know DotA streamers, but people like guardsman BoB in LoL...I really wouldn't want to have his life, even though he seems to be enjoying it and making decent money from it.

    Once I 'have' to do something it's not fun anymore for me.

  19. #1859
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    I've heard it being said quite a few times that having your hobby turned into a job isn't nearly as wonderful as outsiders like to think.
    I don't think many people who have tried it would disagree. One season of CAL was enough for me, I like DotA, but all the rules and regularities really started killing the fun. Then the fact that I had to play the same hero game after game (lich/warlock were part of my team's core picks and I was the most aggressive player so I ended up going warlock safe lane game after game) starting wearing on me pretty fast, too. Even after half a dozen games I already didn't care if I won or lost, I wasn't having fun anyway.

    And if it's your job, you can't just get up and take a break, either. Having a bad day, people living with 1 health? Too bad, you have to put a smile on your face and keep playing because people are watching.

    And that's why I'm a casual =p
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  20. #1860
    Pandaren Monk
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    Yeah, pretty much. I think it would just make bad games more and more frustrating knowing so many people are watching and that more than just a loss is on the line, all the tourney winnings are. I could do it, but I'd rather just keep it casual.

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