1. #1941
    Quote Originally Posted by llDemonll View Post
    Yea, I did this and all my matches except a select few player with friends are in the 'normal' bracket

    i'm just looking for advice on upping the skill level...i would figure it mostly depends on the game as a whole but if it's a individual-based score....i should stock dicking around when the game is all but lost
    I've never seen anything to suggest the "skill rating" for your games has anything to do with MMR. It seems to do more with how long and close the game is. I've had page 2 games listed as low skill that also happened to be 19 minute rax, doesn't seem to be a coincidence to me.


    @All that above mathematics stuff
    Performance can make sense and still be broken. The system can't account for everything, and by finding "trends" based on the USERS, it is finding trends based on user perception.

    My example here is my sand king. Do I play him differently than other people? Well...I don't really think so. However, let's imagine for a second a world in which most SK players at high MMR do a ton of roaming/ganking and help support. I play more of a hybrid spell carry, on the other hand, and leave supporting to someone like CM. Regardless of how good my SK is and how much I win, the system might still say I'm bad because of some random Y factor that everyone else does that I do not do, something that could honestly be very unrelated to winning (like distance traveled). Of note, this is just an example (and I only used SK because he went from max 5 to about an even 2 when they updated the way it was calculated, by far my biggest change). If part of how they determine a "good" CM is if she buys sentry wards, well, that's not really fair is it? It's no one hero's *job* to do ANYTHING, it's entirely dependent on each game and each team comp. Therefore, just because 90% of the time CM is the support/ward bitch doesn't mean the other 10% of the time she's automatically bad.

    tl;dr
    Judging performance based off of what is most common is not a good system, imo, and it IS likely what they are doing.

    Of note, my SF is still a max 5, though he's the only hero I left now. I'd like to think the "players at your skill level" part is legit and that the system merely thinks I'm a slightly above average page 2 player, it makes me feel like 3-4 bars on heroes is a good thing. Otherwise, I pretty much totally ignore it. If you win it goes up a little bit, if you lose it goes down a little bit. If anything, if you want 5 bars on any hero you just have to play 100 games with it and win more than you lose (it seems to me).



    Also, hero flexibility is easily the biggest thing you can do to help yourself get better at this game, and that goes for almost everybody. You don't go blink SF just because you saw Dendi do it, you need to realize what items are good for what games. Is skadi an item I consider core on just about any hero? Not at all, but I still buy it every ten games or so because it is extremely useful in some situations. Some games you really should go mekanism OD, dagon BH, or SY Ursa. What pains me the most is to see people copy the same build game after game after game (agility carry players are typically the worst about this) and lose a game because they couldn't adapt and just change one item in their build. Orchid is probably my favorite item for Ursa and I buy it almost 100% of the time I play him - but I've never seen it on an enemy Ursa in my life. They all just go herp vlads/blink/BKB/heart on autopilot.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-08-02 at 11:52 PM.
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  2. #1942
    Quote Originally Posted by llDemonll View Post
    ^ that console command has been fixed.

    Basically the only way to guarantee that your MMR goes up is to group with friends and play classes that will ensure a win...
    If you are solo queue you could carry yourself by either picking strong junglers like Prophet,Sylla,Lifestealer, Lycan. Storm Spirit or picking strong lane heroes like Riki,Invoker.The best choice is probably Invoker since he is most versatile out of them,least item dependable and he really can turn over teamfights,also there is no hard counter for him.But he also requires tons of practice to unlock his full potential.

    Pick one of those heroes and stick to them from match to match.

  3. #1943
    High Overlord Ultraviolet Harmonies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Judging performance based off of what is most common is not a good system, imo, and it IS likely what they are doing.
    At the end of the day, they are bars. Nobody else but you can see them. They mean absolutely nothing.

  4. #1944
    Quote Originally Posted by Ultraviolet Harmonies View Post
    At the end of the day, they are bars. Nobody else but you can see them. They mean absolutely nothing.
    Yeah, pretty much. It still makes me mad that I can be 18-2 with Leoric and he's apparently one of my worst heroes =p
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  5. #1945
    So I finally got into Dota 2. Played two bot games as Morphling and Alchemist. I had very little idea about the graphics as such because I come from LoL. Sometimes the graphics seem odd, like how the casters minions cast. Also hero AA animation feels a bit weird and not so smooth.

    The game feels VERY different from LoL.

    Wanna know what the leveling thing is for. They don't seem to be connected to anything. No talent systems. No runes.

    The ability usage is also very different from LoL. It's rare to use them and costs too much mana. How do I attack my lane opponent with this system? Simply AA them? But in return I will take a lot of damage. Or just use an ability, wait for regen and then use it again?

    Which heros would you recommend a completely new player?

    What is a normal setup? Like in LoL you have the meta. What the "meta" in DOTA?
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  6. #1946
    You get a free guaranteed item when you level up. They're also rewarded randomly but leveling up is a way to make sure you get SOMETHING once in a while.

    Abilities in LoL don't do much damage by comparison. You can do from two spells in DotA, so having the mana to simply spam all day would be broken. It's great the way it is, you just have to get used to it.

    Newer players should probably stick to intelligence heroes in general, most of them are pretty easy to play. Heroes like Ogre Magi you can do pretty solid with even if you don't know what's going on all that well.

    DotA doesn't have quite as solid of a meta as LoL. I've been complaining recently because people *have* been doing the same thing over and over again (solo long lane (radiance top/dire bot) + solo mid + roam/jungler + support/hard carry short lane). However, there are many strategies that work. Trilanes are possible, two mid is possible, even double jungle is possible if played correctly. It all depends on the game. That said, if you want to fill out a generic team lineup, you're going to pretty much want an initiator, support, hard carry, hybrid (initiator/carry or support/carry) on every team. Of course, this changes at all skill levels.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-08-03 at 12:37 AM.
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  7. #1947
    High Overlord Ultraviolet Harmonies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    So I finally got into Dota 2. Played two bot games as Morphling and Alchemist. I had very little idea about the graphics as such because I come from LoL. Sometimes the graphics seem odd, like how the casters minions cast. Also hero AA animation feels a bit weird and not so smooth.
    Every hero has a different auto attacking animation. Some heroes have fantastic animations (faceless void, brewmaster, sniper - to name a few), where as others are straight out horrendous (zeus, crystal maiden, shadow shaman). These are obviously opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    The game feels VERY different from LoL.
    It is. Here's a nifty reddit thread for getting started from LoL.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Wanna know what the leveling thing is for. They don't seem to be connected to anything. No talent systems. No runes.
    Every time you level up, you get a cosmetic item. That's it. In DotA, there's no advantage before you start the game - everyone starts out even.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    The ability usage is also very different from LoL. It's rare to use them and costs too much mana. How do I attack my lane opponent with this system? Simply AA them? But in return I will take a lot of damage. Or just use an ability, wait for regen and then use it again?
    Spells are much more expensive and (generally) a lot less spammable, but they're a lot more powerful. You don't want to waste spells, but you don't want to be too passive either. It's a delicate balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    Which heros would you recommend a completely new player?
    Tidehunter, Sven, Vengeful Spirit, Ogre Magi, Skeleton King, Witch Doctor, Lich, Warlock, Crystal Maiden, Slardar. Avoid picking: Invoker, Visage, Chen, Wisp, Keeper of the Light, Silencer, Puck, Shadow Fiend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    What is a normal setup? Like in LoL you have the meta. What the "meta" in DOTA?
    There is no meta. The current trend in professional games is heavy pushing paired with heavy ganking - but this is not something you should worry about. You'll see stuff like 2-1-2, 3-1-1, 1-1-1 with double jungle, 1-2-2 - pretty much every possible combination can work, given the right heroes in the game. Usually in lower-tier games you will see a solo mid with two dual lanes (or one dual lane and one solo and one jungle).

    One last thing: I'll link you to probably the most comprehensive noob-guide out there. It's really really good for new players: http://www.purgegamers.com/welcome-to-dota-you-suck
    Last edited by Ultraviolet Harmonies; 2012-08-03 at 12:38 AM.

  8. #1948
    Quote Originally Posted by Waterisbest View Post
    So I finally got into Dota 2. Played two bot games as Morphling and Alchemist. I had very little idea about the graphics as such because I come from LoL. Sometimes the graphics seem odd, like how the casters minions cast. Also hero AA animation feels a bit weird and not so smooth.

    The game feels VERY different from LoL.

    Wanna know what the leveling thing is for. They don't seem to be connected to anything. No talent systems. No runes.

    The ability usage is also very different from LoL. It's rare to use them and costs too much mana. How do I attack my lane opponent with this system? Simply AA them? But in return I will take a lot of damage. Or just use an ability, wait for regen and then use it again?

    Which heros would you recommend a completely new player?

    What is a normal setup? Like in LoL you have the meta. What the "meta" in DOTA?
    Leveling gives you a point to put into abilities to level them up and more stats (str/agi/int) based on what hero you play. When selecting a hero, there's a filter that allows you to choose 'recommended beginner heroes' which is pretty good. And you're right, besides skill and item builds, there's nothing else to your 'build.' However in dota almost all heroes can fill multiple roles and have plenty of very different but viable skill and item builds.



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  9. #1949
    I haven't seen a good double jungle in a while =/
    I saw Leoric and Ursa run around and do ancients over and over, we basically had 5 solos as far as levels went by mid game and it was pretty fun. Most people would call you a noob if you tried it, though, since you'd be deviating from the "norm."
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  10. #1950
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Leveling gives you a point to put into abilities to level them up and more stats (str/agi/int) based on what hero you play. When selecting a hero, there's a filter that allows you to choose 'recommended beginner heroes' which is pretty good. And you're right, besides skill and item builds, there's nothing else to your 'build.' However in dota almost all heroes can fill multiple roles and have plenty of very different but viable skill and item builds.
    He means the Battle Level (out of game level up system).

    I personally think they need to add in more of the Strength heroes. I feel like Rigwarl, Centaur, and Abaddon are all VERY noob friendly, and there's only a handful of strong initiate heroes in the game so far.

    Also, question. I never build Aghanim's on Juggernaut, but I've seen it done, and people on both sides claiming its good and crap. Normally, I just go Battlefury then swap between a couple choices for secondary items based on what their team has, but I've seen some staunch support for Agh's on him. I feel like it's wasted carry potential though, but some people swear by it. I'd love to have opinions on it before trying it. It just didn't seem worth 4k gold when 4k can get you a battlefury (crit cleave ftw, nice +dmg, and awesome mana regen) are all things he can use well. What do you guys think?

  11. #1951
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I've never seen anything to suggest the "skill rating" for your games has anything to do with MMR. It seems to do more with how long and close the game is. I've had page 2 games listed as low skill that also happened to be 19 minute rax, doesn't seem to be a coincidence to me.
    Sounds very much like a coincidence to me. I haven't really seen the connection between skill bracket and game lenght, but for example my beginner friends when playing solo almost always have their games listed as normal (or low) regardless of how long those games last or how much of stomps they are. Same applies to myself in higher bracket.

    The reason you sometimes have a game that ends up going to "normal" is probably because someone queued with beginner friends or you (or a bunch of low people) waited for a game for long enough for the search range to expand a lot.



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  12. #1952
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I haven't seen a good double jungle in a while =/
    I saw Leoric and Ursa run around and do ancients over and over, we basically had 5 solos as far as levels went by mid game and it was pretty fun. Most people would call you a noob if you tried it, though, since you'd be deviating from the "norm."
    Me and a rl buddy played a game where we Roshed at 4 with Ursa and Leoric. It shoulda been super obvious what was going on, but the other team never even checked or warded Rosh. Ended up stomping that game, just because it was obvious they weren't warding so I roamed around ganking and was like 9-1 as Ursa 20 minutes into the game. People don't understand how IMPORTANT vision is. That's honestly my biggest piece of advice to new players: if you are a support hero, buy wards. I try to keep them out of stock as much as I can, unless I really need survivability. With 2-3 supports/initiators on the team anyway, the cost of the wards isn't ridiculous. It lets you dodge ganks, keep your eye on the minimap. I honestly scan the minimap like I'm driving a car. Also helps your mid with rune control, which give extremely powerful ganks early game. You ever been ganked by a hasted/invised/DD'd shadow fiend or pudge early game? It's ridiculous. Almost nothing you can do, the wards are necessary.

  13. #1953
    High Overlord Ultraviolet Harmonies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I haven't seen a good double jungle in a while =/
    I saw Leoric and Ursa run around and do ancients over and over, we basically had 5 solos as far as levels went by mid game and it was pretty fun. Most people would call you a noob if you tried it, though, since you'd be deviating from the "norm."
    Heh yeah.. I ran a semi-successful dual-jungle the other night as a matter of fact. I was playing Enchantress and went opposing jungle (I randomed - someone picked Lycan and wrote "jungle" in russian). The other team had drafted a N'aix, and luckily Enchantress absolutely shits all over a N'aix early on with a large neutral. I was eventually chased out of the jungle, but only after having taken an early (5-6 minute) tower, and killing N'aix two times.

    It certainly is a rare sight, though.

  14. #1954
    When they buffed it it became a great item. In my opinion, of course -

    It really depends on the game. If they have a team that is going to stick together, you get mjoll/bfury/scepter and your ult not only lasts the entire team fight - it also dishes out thousands of damage. Against teams that hide behind blink enigma/tide as an initiator this can be very powerful. However, you generally should/have to capitalize on items that are effective while slashing - mjoll/basher/bfury/MKB even. This sort of build will leave you weaker in an auto attack fight.

    If you're going to be trying to 1v1 a strong carry like Lycan, you're probably better off skipping the reliance on your ult and building a real 1v1. Items like Manta Style become more important here, and since they add nothing to your ultimate, should be avoided in a scepter build.

    Because of that, I believe it's best to either build to maximize your ultimate or your auto attacks/survivability, depending on what you're against. I've definitely had a lot of success with scepter Juggernaut, it's pretty easy to farm as a first item and a 9 slash ultimate at level 11 is absurdly dangerous for the enemy team. It also gives you a decent amount of survivability for how relatively cheap it is.

    @Hermanni
    Possible, and I haven't checked much recently. Just my thoughts from past searches seeing games I know were on page like 4 and listed as normal or even low skill.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-08-03 at 01:00 AM.
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  15. #1955
    High Overlord Ultraviolet Harmonies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    Also, question. I never build Aghanim's on Juggernaut, but I've seen it done, and people on both sides claiming its good and crap. Normally, I just go Battlefury then swap between a couple choices for secondary items based on what their team has, but I've seen some staunch support for Agh's on him. I feel like it's wasted carry potential though, but some people swear by it. I'd love to have opinions on it before trying it. It just didn't seem worth 4k gold when 4k can get you a battlefury (crit cleave ftw, nice +dmg, and awesome mana regen) are all things he can use well. What do you guys think?
    If you have the farm to get a Battlefury early on (before the 20 minute mark pretty much), then you should always go for that. Aghanim's Scepter is great because it scales very well with other damage items, and the extra jumps really does wonders late game. I don't think it's good enough to warrant building it every game, and it really is not something you should go as your first or even second item.

  16. #1956
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    Does his ult still do more damage if his autoattack is stronger than the slash? There was a point in DotA history I remember that being true, or reading it somewhere. His ult's mechanics have always been odd to me. Does he cleave with his ult if he has Battlefury? I've never noticed, but my brother claims Swiftblade does in HoN (Juggernaut port, very similar). It's just always confused me, as I don't play him often.

  17. #1957
    I'm not sure how it's calculated but he should auto attack while slashing. The slashes do like 90-110 damage always and the auto attacks are auto attacks. I believe the slashes will always only hit once but the auto attacks act as if you were not ulting and just hitting them, but I could be wrong, have never seen it actually detailed before.

    So yes, you get cleave with bfury, because you will be autoattacking while slashing.
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  18. #1958
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    Ah, alright. So more slashes means more invulnerability time also, and more free autoattacks. Cool.

  19. #1959
    High Overlord Ultraviolet Harmonies's Avatar
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    You do not auto attack in Omnislash unless you get enough IAS.

  20. #1960
    Thanks for the help everyone.

    Sounds good to know that you don't need any pre-game "items" to be more effective during the game. One thing that is putting me off from LoL is the runes page/runes. Recently I got to know that you can't buy more then one rune pages from IP, meaning a total of three rune pages for "free". You need to pay to get two more to complete all the five roles in the game, mid/carry/sup/top/jungler. I have mid, carry and sup, but can't play top or jungle because I don't have the rune pages (and hence the runes). Have to leave the select screen if I am not able to pick the roles I have runes for. Can't buy rune pages atm because of money issues after starting a business.

    It's also good to know that you don't have to stick to a "meta" and that your build depends on how the game is going, instead of simply building what the "pros" calculated.

    No tanks means that it is the initiator who needs to attack first and it's more of a strategic attacking then spamming your buttons.

    Hoping to enjoy this game and End of Nations (which I got invited too few days ago). Really love games that are much more flexible then "pre-determined" data provided by the "pros".
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