1. #2461
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    SD is absolutely a lot weaker than OD.
    No way. SD has a lot more applications than just as Disruption bot, can be laned anywhere (he's an amazingly good solo mid as well as effective in a duo lane or a tri-lane) and can be built as a hard support or even a semi-carry thanks to good AGI growth and solid INT growth and high base damage. Hell, a solo mid Shadow Demon gets a guaranteed kill as soon as he hits level 6 (a lot like solo mid AA) unless the enemy mid hugs their tower for the rest of the laning phase, and he can be an effective ganker well before 6, too (really, as soon as he hits level 2 and gets his first level of curse.)

    OD on the other hand requires a lot of farm regardless of how you play him, is fragile as hell even with a Meka, and has pretty much no real offensive capability until the midgame.

    Also the familiars are definitely fairly bad for how hard they are to use.
    Yeah. Maximum damage they can do with level 1 ulti is 66 on the first salvo (10+56), and they lose 8 attack damage every time they attack, and it takes them 15 seconds to recover one of those bonus damage charges. They have 300 HP and 0 armor and move at a relatively slow 380 move speed, have mostly no vision radius, and are melee-range attackers. Oh, and they're each worth 100 gold so you have to be REALLY damn careful with them. Their stun is handy, but it's only a 1 second stun (up to 1.5 sec with lvl 3 ulti), so you have a maximum of 2 seconds of stun on a 30 sec cd if you time it correctly.

    I wouldn't have a problem with all that if you could just bind your familiars together with Visage and just run around as a group, but you really have to have them grouped separately since they're so slow relative to most heroes (380 would let you catch a CM, but it's too slow to really run down much of anyone else) and so squishy. Hell, I've had neutral creeps kill my familiars when I was flying them over the trees in the jungle to get them into position for a gank, which is goddamned frustrating.

    Shit, next time I think I'm just gonna completely skip my damn ulti... shitting out Visage's W every 4 sec in teamfights is utility enough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  2. #2462
    His ultimate really isn't bad for ganking...you can gank without even being there, for example, just by helping with the familiars. In the heat of a skirmish people don't have time to aim your familiars or they die, so that extra damage can net you free kills from across the map. Or you can chain off of someone else's stun to help secure kills as well. I've gone as much as 6-0 early game from ganking top lane while I farmed bot lane as Visage before.

  3. #2463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    His ultimate really isn't bad for ganking...you can gank without even being there, for example, just by helping with the familiars. In the heat of a skirmish people don't have time to aim your familiars or they die, so that extra damage can net you free kills from across the map. Or you can chain off of someone else's stun to help secure kills as well. I've gone as much as 6-0 early game from ganking top lane while I farmed bot lane as Visage before.
    Yeah, I usually just hide the familiars in trees somewhere near a lane that will probably get ganked, but considering they're weaker than freaking ranged creeps with melee range... I dunno.

    I'm also wondering about recommended items for Visage. The more I look at his skills (aside from his, IMO, shitty ultimate), the more it looks like he's geared to be an almost Viper-like tanky semi-carry. His Q has an insane 60% uptime and gives him the buffs even if it's blocked by Linken's, his W translates into a lot of damage over the course of a teamfight as long as you have mana to support it, and his E makes him more or less immune to damage bursts - something like fucking 74% magic resist at max level with the full four stacks.

    Seems like he'd be an excellent choice for Orchid (more mana, more attack speed, and IMO one of the best activated abilities in the game) and Rod of Atos. I'll definitely play him some more this week and see how it turns out.

    I just really don't like his ultimate. It demands so much APM to prevent them from just being fed to the enemy for what feels like pretty minimal results. It just seems like I'd be getting just as many kills and assists by being a proper roamer (which is what Visage seems to be geared for if he isn't tri-laning) as I would by screwing around with stupid familiars.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  4. #2464
    His scepter is pretty bad, too. A third familiar is another 100g for their carry, yay!

  5. #2465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    His scepter is pretty bad, too. A third familiar is another 100g for their carry, yay!
    I played a game with him without ever taking my ulti and... I didn't miss my ulti very much. There were some points where I was thinking "hey having a couple of rangd stuns would be nifty right now," but it's the same thing as having a level 8 CM and regretting not having Freezing Field because the enemy team just walked into a perfect Black Hole or something.

    It just feels like maxing your skills and/or taking stats doesn't really cost you much, especially since the familiars can't be used for scouting. He definitely feels like a hero that was tuned and designed around dominating in lane (a lot like Dirge, to me) and then they kind said "well he'll win his lane for sure, so who cares about the rest."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  6. #2466
    Yeah, I really wish they kept him how he used to be. Old permanent cloak was great, and grave chill used to be a lot better as well. His ult used to pretty much be a farming and scouting thing, which was fine for an int hero who can start by supporting and end up hard carrying. Skadi/buriza/etc used to be ridiculous on Visage, now it would just be meh. I think he was a lot stronger then, not sure why they changed him. He didn't get picked much then and he doesn't get picked much now.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-08-31 at 07:42 AM.

  7. #2467
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Yeah, I really wish they kept him how he used to be. Old permanent cloak was great, and grave chill used to be a lot better as well. His ult used to pretty much be a farming and scouting thing, which was fine for an int hero who can start by supporting and end up hard carrying. Skadi/buriza/etc used to be ridiculous on Visage, now it would just be meh. I think he was a lot stronger then, not sure why they changed him. He didn't get picked much then and he doesn't get picked much now.
    He'd still at least be worth picking if his ulti was useful. Should really just change it to be like a 140/130/120 sec cooldown with familiars lasting 30 sec. Boost their vision radius, reduce their bounty, and make neutral creeps ignore them without provocation and everything else is fine. Right now, though, the cooldown is huge since familiars are permanent, which combined with their high bounty almost makes them a liability to use unless you already had a Ravage or Black Hole or whatever to set everything up in the first place.

    Hell, level 1 familiars have 300 HP, which means they're a free 100 gold to a Tinker or Bane that wants them since pure damage ignores their very high MR and they don't have spell immunity.

    I'm pretty sure the old Dagon crows were more useful than these familiars :-/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  8. #2468
    Only 5 hours 30 minutes left, until TI2 kicks off!!!!!!!

  9. #2469
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    support ... goes ... bloodstone
    Doesn't Rhyme.

  10. #2470
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    Jaikro is slowly becoming one of my favorite Int support heroes. No one in my bracket level seems to pay much heed to him but he's annoying as shit regardless. <3 not being focused as a hero with close to 0 escape ability
    "I'm glad you play better than you read/post on forums." -Ninety
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  11. #2471
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    stuff
    Does laser actually work? I was pretty sure they had actual built in spell damage immunity, I don't think I've ever seen one die to anything but auto attacks.

  12. #2472
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    Quote Originally Posted by llDemonll View Post
    Jaikro is slowly becoming one of my favorite Int support heroes. No one in my bracket level seems to pay much heed to him but he's annoying as shit regardless. <3 not being focused as a hero with close to 0 escape ability
    Ice Path is his only weakness, being really hard to land. Usually just put 1 pt in it for the token stun if I can get someone else to set it up, otherwise breath and his passive. Slowing down tower attack speed is pretty fantastic. People say his ulti sucks, but I think it's pretty fantastic if you're using it as an area denial tool. Short cooldown and it does a lot of damage if you can somehow make them stand in it, so people tend to run the hell away from it once you've used it. It's great for slowing or outright stopping tower pushes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Does laser actually work? I was pretty sure they had actual built in spell damage immunity, I don't think I've ever seen one die to anything but auto attacks.
    Familiars have 96% magic resistance. Laser is pure damage, so it isn't reduced by their magic resistance. They don't have any kind of magic immunity. Since familiars have 300 HP at level 1, and Laser does 300 damage when maxed, familiars are a free 100 gold for Tinker if they fly in range. Ditto for Bane, since Brain Sap also does 300 pure damage. I suppose Pudge could also hook them to death since that's 360 pure. Omni could conceivably nuke them with Purification, too, but given his comically long cast animation and tiny AOE... I doubt it.

    At any rate, familiars are pretty shitty summons, especially for an ultimate; kind of share that with Warlock's golems. Lycan's wolves are better than familiars in every single way except not having a stun, and they make up for that with permanent invisibility and a large enough sight range that makes them viable for use as scouts. Also, Lycan wolves are worth a little less than half the bounty of familiars and have a lot more HP.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  13. #2473
    Deleted
    Does any one know an easy way to obtain a beta key? I am really getting bored of LoL and its repetitive mechanics, and from what I saw each hero is unique.

  14. #2474
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celltrex View Post
    Does any one know an easy way to obtain a beta key? I am really getting bored of LoL and its repetitive mechanics, and from what I saw each hero is unique.
    Depends on if your definition of easy includes paying 4-6 euros. Can trade keys with people in there or just google around for giveaways.

  15. #2475
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycoris View Post
    Depends on if your definition of easy includes paying 4-6 euros. Can trade keys with people in there or just google around for giveaways.
    Thanks for the help. I just found out that there are beta keys giveaways on Facebook. I will wait 13 hours maybe I will get one. If not, I will definitely try to pay for one.

  16. #2476
    sorry but visage ulti is freakin awesome

  17. #2477
    Quote Originally Posted by Celltrex View Post
    Thanks for the help. I just found out that there are beta keys giveaways on Facebook. I will wait 13 hours maybe I will get one. If not, I will definitely try to pay for one.
    Its anticipated that Dota 2 will go F2P soon but $5 isn't much money to spend for such a great game :P

  18. #2478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finear View Post
    sorry but visage ulti is freakin awesome
    You're getting two flying melee creeps with half the vision range, twice the bounty, and half the HP. It's fucking awful.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  19. #2479
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    You're getting two flying melee creeps with half the vision range, twice the bounty, and half the HP. It's fucking awful.
    It's great, you're just awful or horribly misusing it. A lot of shitters in MM keep feeding free familiars and bitch about how awful hero Visage is but then you see someone with half a brain play him and you'll know better.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-09-01 at 04:43 AM.

  20. #2480
    I don't think having a brain matters. It's useful against some heroes and garbage against others, it's all about matchup. Most things in DotA are this way, it shouldn't be surprising.

    Gyrocopter, for example, will kill Visage ultimate without even targeting in one or two shots. Even level 3 ultimate dies in two hits maximum to a late game Gyro. Against Zeus? Yeah, sure, it'll do some damage.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-09-01 at 04:46 AM.

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