[Megathread] DotA 2

[Finear]

CM aura is is garbage compared to nova and frostbite
if you put 3-4 points in aura early you missed opportunity to get kills (in team fights or ganks) when your spells are actually good, although frostbite is quite useful through the entire game

[PizzaSHARK]

CM aura is is garbage compared to nova and frostbite
if you put 3-4 points in aura early you missed opportunity to get kills (in team fights or ganks) when your spells are actually good, although frostbite is quite useful through the entire game

Yeah, I understand. Maybe they just need to buff aura so that it scales, or provides more than just mana regen (maybe INT bonus?) I usually max Frostbite first... 3 sec stun usually feels more important than an extra 2 sec on a slow, especially since both spells get more expensive as you put more points into em. If you're being a good CM and not taking farm and your enemies aren't completely retarded and overextending, it's usually hard to be able to afford to spam spells constantly without delaying important items like boots and stick.

[Finear]

btw frostbite is not a stun ;p

[Hermanni]

Implying that Mjollnir's orb somehow comes separate from the stats the item provides? You seem really desperate to be right.

I'm not desperate to be right; I'm right until you or someone disputes me with a good argument without logical fallacies, which in your case you still haven't managed once in this thread. So you can stop strawmanning me and go back to your usual BS posts. And in Tiny's case, Mjolnir is nowhere near efficient enough for the orb to be worth anything without other items. With Mjolnir + Treads your attack time at level 16 is still well around 1 second and your orb isn't worth even 40 DPS before resistance. Just about any agi hero and several str heroes hit the same attack time at level 16 without any items, just go and figure out if the orb isn't better for them.

And going with the old shitty "Mjolnir is nice for everyone" argument isn't helping you, you can build an argument like that for Dagon 5 if you want to. And like Lysah said, you'll usually want to build Aghanim's for Tiny which makes the Mjolnir orb even more redundant.

[Lysah]

I think we all assume that Tiny is getting scepter in any game. I still get mjollnir when I carry with him if I have time. I just tend to get it last, because, like I said, the leap from hyperstone>mjoll is very expensive for what is some damage and some speed. But you can't ignore the fact that it IS some damage and some speed, and the chain lightening proc does still happen in a fight.

[Hermanni]

It's not awful when you're already stacked on items, but I think LaNm's Phase+Manta+Aghs+Butterfly+Daedalus+AC is just about the most lethal build if you get the gold for that. Perhaps with different boots.

[Dragoncurry]

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK URSA. Sorry, I just had to say it after losing 5 fucking games to him in a row.

[Lysah]

It's not awful when you're already stacked on items, but I think LaNm's Phase+Manta+Aghs+Butterfly+Daedalus+AC is just about the most lethal build if you get the gold for that. Perhaps with different boots.

I really can't believe manta. It's such a stupid item on Tiny, but when the alternative is SY...I really wish they could find a way to make SY better.

[PizzaSHARK]

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK URSA. Sorry, I just had to say it after losing 5 fucking games to him in a row.

He's difficult for pubs to deal with because they never get dust or sentries to deal with the shadowblade pub Ursas usually build, and they don't get things like Force Staff or Ghost Scepter to avoid getting blown up by him.

He's not nearly as scary if your team has some coordination and the right items.

---------- Post added 2012-09-07 at 03:19 AM ----------

I really can't believe manta. It's such a stupid item on Tiny, but when the alternative is SY...I really wish they could find a way to make SY better.

That, or make Sange suck less. HH is a fantastic item, but Sange... isn't.

[Dragoncurry]

He's difficult for pubs to deal with because they never get dust or sentries to deal with the shadowblade pub Ursas usually build, and they don't get things like Force Staff or Ghost Scepter to avoid getting blown up by him.

He's not nearly as scary if your team has some coordination and the right items.

---------- Post added 2012-09-07 at 03:19 AM ----------



That, or make Sange suck less. HH is a fantastic item, but Sange... isn't.

Sigh, I'm decent at the game, but playing with pubs nets me with faceless void who go sange/vanguard/mjollinger makes me wanna quit the game. Thanks for the force staff tip tho!!

[Lysah]

He's difficult for pubs to deal with because they never get dust or sentries to deal with the shadowblade pub Ursas usually build, and they don't get things like Force Staff or Ghost Scepter to avoid getting blown up by him.

He's not nearly as scary if your team has some coordination and the right items.

I don't know, Ursa farms pretty damn fast which makes him scary in any game. You try to gank him in the jungle early game and he can drop a stack of overpower on you and you're dead from full health, so unless you want to team roam he's going to free farm the jungle. Plenty of junglers do this so you might not worry too much but he's one of the fastest junglers overall. I had a game with 900 GPM him just the other day, when you're running around with vlads/orchid/lothar's/heart at the same time they are just finishing their scepters and force staffs there's not a whole lot they can do about it.

Of course, the short answer is to get a hero like BM who can just ult him and he's done, but I'd say that about any hard carry. Ursa is absolutely one of the best pub stompers, for sure. Honestly, put all the items and hero picks and teamwork (mostly because 1v5ing someone will always be a way to stop them...) away and we realize that stopping Ursa, at the heart of the matter, is as simple as not getting hit by his slow.

I don't consider sange a terrible item, for a strength hero at least. It's just that if you compare it's upgrades to their alternatives...SY versus Manta isn't a fair fight. What does SY give that Manta does not? 2% movespeed, an unreliable slow. Manta gives more stats overall and the on-use split which is just gravy for really any hero defensively and half of them offensively. It's to the point where STR heroes get manta instead because it's better, and even when I'm on a hero like Slithice and I'm against ES/bfury PA and my first thought is "well the manta illusions will just get blown up anyway" I STILL get it over SY because it's just no contest. Doesn't really feel like item balance to me when SY is an item you will buy in almost zero situations...I pretty much only get it when the illusions will become a burden instead on a melee hero like SB. Even then, MoM/BKB/armlet sometimes/AC will come first anyway and the items after that will be so game dependent.

If they changed sange's maim to an item-use so that you could force it to happen on someone (even if it was melee range like HH) it would make it way better.

[PizzaSHARK]

Just had a game where PA built Armlet as her first item and spent the majority of the game flaming me for dying frequently as a hard support VS in a lane that didn't get any kills (because the Naga I was with never picked up net.) Never mind the wards, the TP scrolls, chicken and crow, and other crap I had to dump gold on for a team that... didn't really make the gold worth spending. Had a Lich in an earlier game that went bottle first, loudly insisted that Lich wasn't a support, and then pretty much flamed everyone else who told him he was an idiot and that Lich was definitely a support, to the tune of "stfu noob u don't understand anything."

Where the hell do these people even come from? Like... how do people like that exist in the day to day real world?

[Lysah]

Did he get an ultra kill by turning it off and on?

Edit:
Coming back from a 3-15 deficit to end up winning the game is just...too funny.

[llDemonll]

Is it that hard not to flame people and nit-pick everything thy say just so you can pretend you're always right? No? Good, stop doing it then please.

I've also realized how annoying DS can be in pub games against weaker early-game heroes with his Ion Shell and Vacuum. Takes out a good half of their health just with ion being near them once it's lvl 3/4

[Ichy]

Just had a game where PA built Armlet as her first item and spent the majority of the game flaming me for dying frequently as a hard support VS in a lane that didn't get any kills (because the Naga I was with never picked up net.) Never mind the wards, the TP scrolls, chicken and crow, and other crap I had to dump gold on for a team that... didn't really make the gold worth spending. Had a Lich in an earlier game that went bottle first, loudly insisted that Lich wasn't a support, and then pretty much flamed everyone else who told him he was an idiot and that Lich was definitely a support, to the tune of "stfu noob u don't understand anything."

Where the hell do these people even come from? Like... how do people like that exist in the day to day real world?

Last night, as ursa (go figure with the comments before yours) was doing my thing and had this Terrible pudge bitching at me for building an MKB (did mkb and Bkb literally at the same time) when the enemy team had a Riki that was shitting on the rest of the team, before he got a Butterfly. Ended up winning thanks to my item choice and our Spirt panda/kotl helping me out all the time, but there was a HUGE chance it could have gone the other way because of their hero make up.

[Sorx]

It's not a very favorable trade until you get enough IAS. Level 16 Tiny with 0 agility or IAS from items is outdamaged by level 16 SF with no items and full souls, and level 16 Tiny with a single Hyperstone is at around the same level if you account for Presence of the Dark Lord. I haven't done the exact math, but it's easy to approximate that on a hero with very high damage and very low agi gain IAS holds a much higher value than anything else until your damage/IAS ratio is fairly balanced. A single Hyperstone cuts your attack time for more than 1 second, but even then your attack speed is lower than most heroes would have at that level without items.

And the other side of the problem is that there aren't that many items that suit Tiny that give IAS. People usually prefer other boots over Treads, and then there's AC, Manta, Butterfly and some items that give a tiny bit like Force Staff, Aghs, Drums. Midas and Orchid give some but are a bit unusual and while Mjolnir is very cost-efficient for IAS the orb obviously isn't very suitable for Tiny.

that’s not quite the fair example. SF gets a lot of extra dmg, and pressence of the dark lord is an additional ability (which is countered by the armor of craggy exterior in anycase). However, I popped in game and made a few bots, and SF v. Tiny, no items, is actually comparable. Health aside, it’s 261 dmg 2.3 speed vs 155dmg 1.03 speed. If tiny had a hyper stone, it’s very much in his favor.

It’s not 150 free dmg, that’s true and gaining something for no cost is admittedly preferred. However, he is stronger with it and a remedy for speed remains easier. The cost is nearly a non-issue but you would be right in saying it should be addressed. Though when you add equal gold, tiny will even come to pass SF.

It is true about the lack of availability in items, unless you want to stack two hyper stones. I suppose you could, depending on how fast you intend the end the game or what items you buy. But beyond items, there are ways of getting IAS through heroes such as wisp or BM. That’s probably more where I’d think if possible. he only needs to be reasonably fast.

As a side note, crit is also something that benefits from the trade.

[Bulwarked]

edit: whoops wrong thread

[PizzaSHARK]

Did he get an ultra kill by turning it off and on?

Edit:
Coming back from a 3-15 deficit to end up winning the game is just...too funny.

We almost won that game that Profit had to backdoor cheese to win. I think we were down like 9 kills and 5 towers and we just kept stomping them every time they'd try to teamfight us. We just couldn't do anything about carry Profit using trees to remove backdoor protection on rax, though we came pretty close since Sylla's damage versus buildings is so silly.

Is it that hard not to flame people and nit-pick everything thy say just so you can pretend you're always right? No? Good, stop doing it then please.

I've also realized how annoying DS can be in pub games against weaker early-game heroes with his Ion Shell and Vacuum. Takes out a good half of their health just with ion being near them once it's lvl 3/4

I think it's part of why he's such a common ban, combined with him being able to use Ion Shell to safely farm from a distance.

[Lysah]

We almost won that game that Profit had to backdoor cheese to win. I think we were down like 9 kills and 5 towers and we just kept stomping them every time they'd try to teamfight us. We just couldn't do anything about carry Profit using trees to remove backdoor protection on rax, though we came pretty close since Sylla's damage versus buildings is so silly.

I'm not even sure how I won my game. Started out as BS with VS supporting, called for a furion gank on tide/bane, we ended up getting off a sprout + MM + bloodrage on bane and he hatersgonnahate walked away with his 315 base movespeed and 10 health left, only for Tide to chase furion into the tower and pick up first blood on US. That's pretty much how the game continued to go until we were down 15 kills and no one had any farm whatsoever. I ended up quitting my efforts to gank and farmed a blademail, running around picking people off during/after team fights with rupture. SF got Lothar's and they just stopped winning team fights somehow.

We didn't even have our Profit backdooring. He definitely helped push and his scepter kept them from raxing, which has always been his greatest strength, in my opinion. A scepter Furion can easily defend all three lanes from a push by himself, all he has to do is ulti on cooldown and the enemies can't push without a hero like Leshrac on their team.

[PizzaSHARK]

I'm not even sure how I won my game. Started out as BS with VS supporting, called for a furion gank on tide/bane, we ended up getting off a sprout + MM + bloodrage on bane and he hatersgonnahate walked away with his 315 base movespeed and 10 health left, only for Tide to chase furion into the tower and pick up first blood on US. That's pretty much how the game continued to go until we were down 15 kills and no one had any farm whatsoever. I ended up quitting my efforts to gank and farmed a blademail, running around picking people off during/after team fights with rupture. SF got Lothar's and they just stopped winning team fights somehow.

We didn't even have our Profit backdooring. He definitely helped push and his scepter kept them from raxing, which has always been his greatest strength, in my opinion. A scepter Furion can easily defend all three lanes from a push by himself, all he has to do is ulti on cooldown and the enemies can't push without a hero like Leshrac on their team.

Yeah, Profit ulti is immensely strong. He's just such a ridiculously versatile hero... he can support, he can carry, and he's a fantastic pusher that can push lanes he's not even present in unlike Tinker.