[Megathread] DotA 2

[Hermanni]

It's an AOE Crippling Fear. If it's not OP it's only because it's on Riki and not Night Stalker.

I deleted my previous post because it was just blatant flame, but now I'll say it: Unless you were born that way, you just went full retard.

You complain on forums about how everything is OP and the community is trash, when it's you who is the cancer in the community with what you either venting about how you wish there was a button you could press to kill somebody for making you angry over a video game or about how anything you can't deal with proves the game is somehow broken or rigged and how that has nothing to do with your mediocrity.

[PizzaSHARK]

random jugg
buy boots and orb of venom
win

Yeah, but in a practical sense: is it ever used outside of making Skadi or an early item for the bear?

I deleted my previous post because it was just blatant flame, but now I'll say it: Unless you were born that way, you just went full retard.

It's Crippling Fear combined with a slow, in an AOE. It's three powerful effects on a single ability with a great uptime, and it's AOE. Maybe Riki needs help elsewhere, but that could never happen unless you did something about Smoke Screen.

You complain on forums about how everything is OP and the community is trash, when it's you who is the cancer in the community with what you either venting about how you wish there was a button you could press to kill somebody for making you angry over a video game or about how anything you can't deal with proves the game is somehow broken or rigged and how that has nothing to do with your mediocrity.

Right, because I base everything solely off of games I play, and only when I lose. Right.

I wasn't just bitching about Bloodstone being OP because I facerolled through a game the second I finished building it. I grouse about Naga Siren not because I win games too easily with her, but because she breaks the game at any skill level when used properly. I hate Morphling because the current implementation of Morph Strength is too forgiving of sloppy play. I hate Chaos Knight because he does everything better than Sven and Leoric, which means those two heroes will never be used if Chaos Knight is available.

All I ever hear out of you is nothing but a bunch of pompous horseshit - "where's your facts noob!?" "omg get better noob!" etc etc. And when you provide "facts," they're the exact same "facts," I'm providing, just from a different viewpoint.

Have you ever stopped to consider why high level play sees the same twenty or twenty five heroes consistently, while the vast majority of heroes are either unplayed or only occasionally played? Have you ever looked at those top twenty and analyzed them, and compared them?

The game could be better if people were more active in demanding change, demanding action about the crap that ain't quite right. It's not like it'd require sweeping changes - simply tweaking numbers would solve the issue in almost every case, yet it never seems to happen. The Q&Q posted above even says that Icefrog's basically going "lol, w/e" in response to issues that crop up. I guess people are fine with complacency, but it rubs me the wrong way.

And why is that you NEVER post in the thread unless it's to rage at me?

[Hermanni]

I said something you can't deal with, not something you lost to. And what you can't deal with could probably fill a book or two.

You can paraphrase and twist my words all you want to, but we both know they ring true.

[Deleted]

But it isn't like a AOE crippling fear..

Riki already loses his usefulness at level 7 or so when people usually get their Force Staff. (Unless it is a stomp)
A force staff owns Rikimaru so hard that pro players quickly figured out how to counter him when he was dominant in the start of DotA 2. it was that simple.

You need a manta to get rid of targetted silence, and only (some) carries get that, while force staff works on everyone in your team, and is available 2-3 times as fast if you even get to a manta(Sylla and other carries dont get it..Although silence on him is wasted).

I agree Sven does need a buff(Support Sven is useful for armor/ms and a aoe stun and semi-good at pushing towers, but that's it. And then there are tons of better choices. And "Carry" Sven is pretty bad because of just overall there are alot of better choices again).

And I agree that morphing while stunned is bullshit, and perhaps even the +24 stats you get from just picking up "Morph" ability is too good as well.

But CK isn't OP, he is just retarded cause of how much luck is invovled with him. (Everything on him is luck based). He doesn't do everything better than Sven - He can't aoe stun and gives no utility, and he requires a lot more items than Sven.

[cudomix]

That's why he's called "Chaos" Knight, he's supposed to be random hero, with large damage variance, 11% chance for large crit and variable stun, but i'd say he's a bit too consistent, he needs to be more random.

[PizzaSHARK]

I said something you can't deal with, not something you lost to. And what you can't deal with could probably fill a book or two.

You can paraphrase and twist my words all you want to, but we both know they ring true.

Herp derp, Force Staff deals with it. But that means you either rush the Force Staff, or Riki's team shits on you until you do. And the only way you do that is by getting farm, which means you're taking it from a carry that needs that farm more than you do.

Ghost Scepter works, too, but god help you if his team has a nuke waiting to be used.

Or were you assuming that we're basing off of a 1v1 situation or something?

---------- Post added 2012-09-17 at 07:25 AM ----------

But CK isn't OP, he is just retarded cause of how much luck is invovled with him. (Everything on him is luck based). He doesn't do everything better than Sven - He can't aoe stun and gives no utility, and he requires a lot more items than Sven.

Sven's AOE is fairly small. It's pretty hard to hit multiple targets with it once everyone has boots unless you can do something to set it up. The main advantage to Sven's stun is that you can't disjoint it. On the other hand, CK's stun is guaranteed to stun someone for the same time as Sven's and has the possibility of stunning them for up to twice that long... and it's on a shorter cooldown, too.

I think the biggest reason it's go CK or go home, though, is because CK's blink makes him less reliant on his team to stay on top of someone. It's kind of easy to kite Sven (and Leoric) because once their stun's used, all they can do just chase you and politely ask you to stand still, and if they Force Staff them away you're like an Ursa without the planetcracking burst. CK can respond with a blink to them (which is on a really short cooldown too), and if he has his ulti up, he basically ward traps them when he blinks if the ulti's lvl 2 or lvl 3.

I just think they need to decide if they want Sven to be played more as a carry or as a support. His buff is REALLY good, especially since it affects creeps, and his stun is also good in games vs blink heroes, but his cleave is situational at best and his ulti just doesn't feel as powerful as CK's (especially since CK's is effectively 2-4x damage depending on level) for boosting damage.

[Finear]

Herp derp, Force Staff deals with it. But that means you either rush the Force Staff, or Riki's team shits on you until you do. And the only way you do that is by getting farm, which means you're taking it from a carry that needs that farm more than you do.

and who doesnt rush force staff even w/o riki on opposing team?

[hellgrazer]

It's Crippling Fear combined with a slow, in an AOE. It's three powerful effects on a single ability with a great uptime, and it's AOE. Maybe Riki needs help elsewhere, but that could never happen unless you did something about Smoke Screen.

Did you ever hear of Force Staff, Eul's, Ghost Scepter or BKB?

Herp derp, Force Staff deals with it. But that means you either rush the Force Staff, or Riki's team shits on you until you do. And the only way you do that is by getting farm, which means you're taking it from a carry that needs that farm more than you do.

Force staff and BKB are very common items , even without riki on the enemy team. And just because a certain hero makes you change your play style ( not that riki does that , at least not because of smoke screen) doesn't make that hero overpowered and to most people that's the charm of dota.


Edit: On a side note ,I found this really funny xD - http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...type=1&theater

[Valedus]

Sven's ulti is fine. At least for pubs, he makes a plenty fine carry. Not many carries have two skills that support their team, while still doing large aoe damage.
I've never seen the point of Support Sven, though. Why not just play Earthshaker or Sand King if your team needs AoE stuns/Initiate?

[hellgrazer]

Sven's ulti is fine. At least for pubs, he makes a plenty fine carry. Not many carries have two skills that support their team, while still doing large aoe damage.
I've never seen the point of Support Sven, though. Why not just play Earthshaker or Sand King if your team needs AoE stuns/Initiate?

Because he can easily transition into a sort of semy-carry if needed.

[Lysah]

Because Sven won't lose his lane against pretty much anything.

[Hermanni]

The game could be better if people were more active in demanding change, demanding action about the crap that ain't quite right. It's not like it'd require sweeping changes - simply tweaking numbers would solve the issue in almost every case, yet it never seems to happen. The Q&Q posted above even says that Icefrog's basically going "lol, w/e" in response to issues that crop up. I guess people are fine with complacency, but it rubs me the wrong way.

And why is that you NEVER post in the thread unless it's to rage at me?

This isn't WoW. Dota gets patched 2-3 times a year, and when it does it's not because the ignorant, the stupid and the bad (or in your case, all three) raise an uproar on the forums and the developer(s) have to budge. And like Lysah and many others have pointed out, pointing out the current drafting trends in the pro scene says almost nil about hero balance. Heroes phase in and out of it without any changes being made to the game while idiots wonder why that and that isn't buffed or nerfed or picked or banned. Obviously there is room for improvement in the game, but is there a reason to rush anything and risk bad results when nothing is actually broken?

Like I've said, the discussion in this thread is going in circles, and I can't partake without repeating myself, which is not something I am fond of doing. As for the last part, your ridiculous statements are one of the few dynamics going on for me to "rage" (laugh) about.

[Deleted]

Herp derp, Force Staff deals with it. But that means you either rush the Force Staff, or Riki's team shits on you until you do. And the only way you do that is by getting farm, which means you're taking it from a carry that needs that farm more than you do.

This is more likely:

Carry farming easy lane with 2 support. (Although unlikely in pubs, they almost always insist on 2-1-2 lanes, lol)
Invoker solo mid.
Windrunner solo long lane.

Already in that scenario two good contenders for early Force Staff without taking any farm from carry, and it only costs 2200g total (So around 9-12min if you get it after phaseboots and a most likely a wand)

---------- Post added 2012-09-17 at 08:35 PM ----------

Because Sven won't lose his lane against pretty much anything.

Sven a good laner? I disagree, can't see one good thing about his laning? His cleave/warcry will push the lane if used and even his Stormbolt might hit the wave unintended and push it. And then the fact he is pretty much OOM after 1 stormbolt, I just don't see it? :P

[Lysah]

[/COLOR]Sven a good laner? I disagree, can't see one good thing about his laning? His cleave/warcry will push the lane if used and even his Stormbolt might hit the wave unintended and push it. And then the fact he is pretty much OOM after 1 stormbolt, I just don't see it? :P

Sven levels stun/stats and is one of the toughest early game heroes, not likely to die. Storm bolt is one of the strongest nukes in the game and it's not hard for him to farm soul ring or energy boots to keep it going. Between bolt/warcry/his toughness in general he can protect lane mates simply by being a powerful presence.

I'm assuming here, of course, that he'd be in the same lane matchups that you'd put ES/etc in. I don't expect Sven to always win a lane with SB as his ally, though that is also quite possible.

[Deleted]

Sven levels stun/stats and is one of the toughest early game heroes, not likely to die. Storm bolt is one of the strongest nukes in the game and it's not hard for him to farm soul ring or energy boots to keep it going. Between bolt/warcry/his toughness in general he can protect lane mates simply by being a powerful presence.

I'm assuming here, of course, that he'd be in the same lane matchups that you'd put ES/etc in. I don't expect Sven to always win a lane with SB as his ally, though that is also quite possible.

Have to disagree. I mean he is not that tough for one?

Okay so decent starting health, and okay strength gain, although it is not THAT good. (2.7 I think, where the highest is 3.2) while his starting armor is something like 1.7 which is far below average for a melee hero I think.

Storm bolt vs Fissure as an example:

I will take Fissure any day of the week. Storm bolt deals like 40 more damage in wider aoe, but Fissure beats that by far if you can line up enemies. And that's not even talking about how good blocking with Fissure is, can't count how many first blood I have gotten from that, or saved a teammate from first blood.

Sven is such a weird hero, he takes up tons of roles, but is below average in all of them IMO. (So worse than a jack of all trades)

Sure he has a stronger presence in lane than say a Clockwork, but nothing compared to say a Venomancer/Leshrac/Juggernut/Invoker/PUDGE!

[Lysah]

A jack of all trades maybe. It's not about being below average at any one of them, it's about being able to do all of them *at the same time.* He can get jango and energy boots and support your carry. Where a hero like Dazzle might do the same thing, Sven fulfills a very different role in team fights. Dazzle basically sits back and waits to shallow grave, otherwise not changing the fight much. Sven runs in with 300 damage swings and forces you to not ignore him.

[Deleted]

I'm getting frustrated because of teamfights. Nothing to do with my team or anything, but whenever teamfight starts and we focus their carry I go to this super duper tunnelvision mode where I ignore everything else, my position is really bad and I don't notice it until I'm nearly or completely dead. Pisses me right off! Any tips how to get out of the tunnelvisioning and actually realise stuff that's going around?

Usually when we setup a gank or something I can do fairly well with my positioning etc, but like I said... The teamfights get me frustrated.

[PizzaSHARK]

Have to disagree. I mean he is not that tough for one?

Okay so decent starting health, and okay strength gain, although it is not THAT good. (2.7 I think, where the highest is 3.2) while his starting armor is something like 1.7 which is far below average for a melee hero I think.

Storm bolt vs Fissure as an example:

I will take Fissure any day of the week. Storm bolt deals like 40 more damage in wider aoe, but Fissure beats that by far if you can line up enemies. And that's not even talking about how good blocking with Fissure is, can't count how many first blood I have gotten from that, or saved a teammate from first blood.

Sven is such a weird hero, he takes up tons of roles, but is below average in all of them IMO. (So worse than a jack of all trades)

Sure he has a stronger presence in lane than say a Clockwork, but nothing compared to say a Venomancer/Leshrac/Juggernut/Invoker/PUDGE!

Seems like the heroes that are commonly picked and banned are the jack of all trades heroes.

Sven does suffer from not really having a set role. This isn't a problem with an item-dependent hero with amazing farm like Profit (his role is determined by what he builds) or a Swiss army knife hero like Invoker, but it is with Sven. If you play him as a carry, he's ridiculously easy to kite, even with a blink dagger, and he's outperformed by both Leoric and especially Chaos Knight in that role. If you play him as a support, he's mostly useless. And if you play him as a pusher, he still can't do anything about a Keeper of the Light hanging out 1200 range away shitting out Illuminates on cooldown or a Profit that's constantly skipping around the map pushing out the lanes Sven isn't in.

Would you put Treant Protector in the same boat? A hero that suffers from not having a set role, and is outperformed by other heroes (Tide being the biggest contender) in the roles he tries to fill?

---------- Post added 2012-09-17 at 11:21 PM ----------

I'm getting frustrated because of teamfights. Nothing to do with my team or anything, but whenever teamfight starts and we focus their carry I go to this super duper tunnelvision mode where I ignore everything else, my position is really bad and I don't notice it until I'm nearly or completely dead. Pisses me right off! Any tips how to get out of the tunnelvisioning and actually realise stuff that's going around?

Usually when we setup a gank or something I can do fairly well with my positioning etc, but like I said... The teamfights get me frustrated.

You're tilting, probably. Take a day off or at least a few hours off. Most people play increasingly worse and worse as they get more and more frustrated, so if you lost a couple games in a row due to idiot teammates or you making bad mistakes... take a break and come back when you're fresh.

The usual solution to bad teammates is to pick heroes that can basically carry a team. Earthshaker is really good if you can position yourself to punish the enemy team for stacking. My last game had us start out really behind, getting ganked constantly by Storm Spirit, QoP, and Morphling (free tower diving since they're blink heroes.) I think I spent the first 15 minutes hiding in the trees, giving my PA as much solo XP as I could.

But then they stacked up with a double creep wave to push a tower, I was able to hobble over and echo slam and we wiped their team and took a tower, and that gave our team a much needed boost of confidence. We were able to repeat it two more times (they were idiots, I guess) along with some ganks and went to an easy win.

If your team isn't nothing but instalocked hard carries, you could also play a morphling or anti-mage and basically ignore your team for 30 minutes while you free farm. Profit can also pull this off if you can push multiple lanes effectively (don't do it if they have, like, a Sand King or Keeper of the Light, though), and I've noticed pubs seem to have issues dealing with a fed Phantom Lancer, too.

I'd also recommend not soloqueuing for all pick. I've noticed that that gamemode results in pubstomps (3-4 buddies partying together and then picking heroes that compliment each other to a comical degree) and "mid or feed" idiocy a lot more.

[Nightfury Treann]

Soonish.

[Lysah]

Tree has the best winrate of all heroes. Irony?

Sven can't be kited because he kills people in three hits. If you survive more than a few hits either you got ridiculously fed or he's an idiot. He gets a battlefury for FREE which means he can farm the jungle with ease naked. Means he can play support early game and very easily transition into a carry late game when he starts farming for carry items. If you want to call that a role, then there you go. He's a carry that doesn't need farm in his early game lane.



I also agree to not play AP if you're looking for a fair game. AP was the joke mode of DotA1, no one I knew who played competitively ever played AP. It only caught on in DotA2 because it was the only choice. Play RD or SD and you will have a better time. If you really are better than the people you get matched with, pick a hard carry. If you have a new friend with 0 games played so you get matched with far worse players, you will notice it is a LOT easier to win if you pick Luna than if you pick Tide. It's the same in all MOBAs, the carry is just too important to leave to the worst player on the team. Supports are replaceable and, honestly, if the carry gets farmed enough, entirely unnecessary.