1. #2941
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    But a jungle in a higher level game needs to be capable of performing ganks, right? If that's so, why is Enigma a common choice? Aside from Malefice (which will stun once or twice at most), he has no real way of ganking and his eidolons are way too slow to chase. Is it just because he's such a fast, safe jungle?
    as you said fast and easy jungle
    you can really quickly get mek/dagger/bkb and lvl6, then good blackhole out of woods and you have free tower
    even ganks at lvl 3-4 are not that bad
    Last edited by Finear; 2012-10-13 at 01:38 PM.

  2. #2942
    Malefice is one of the best non-ultimate disables in the game against non-blinkers. Enigma is good because he doesn't need items like Stout or Hatchet, doesn't need health regen and he jungles with a build that is similar to what you'd build normally. Unless you're a mongoloid and max Eidolons before Malefice. If enemy gets too far into lane you can walk behind them with 6 Eidolons for an easy gank, and after a successful gank you can easily proceed to push a tower. You can pressure the lane with little effort and still have a Soul Ring and Blink or Mek 10-11 minutes in. At that point you're free to push some towers and enemy will think twice before taking a fight against you.

    Best 3 junglers right now are easily Chen, Enchantress and Enigma. They don't need specific items for jungling and can have lane presence without any commitment. Although Prophet has some global presence Enigma outstrips him easily in early farming speed and lane control.
    Manni of Paragon. Moderator of Dota 2 subforum - The golden rule: Listen to Lysah. Seriously.

  3. #2943
    Over 9000! PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    9,885
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Malefice is one of the best non-ultimate disables in the game against non-blinkers. Enigma is good because he doesn't need items like Stout or Hatchet, doesn't need health regen and he jungles with a build that is similar to what you'd build normally. Unless you're a mongoloid and max Eidolons before Malefice. If enemy gets too far into lane you can walk behind them with 6 Eidolons for an easy gank, and after a successful gank you can easily proceed to push a tower. You can pressure the lane with little effort and still have a Soul Ring and Blink or Mek 10-11 minutes in. At that point you're free to push some towers and enemy will think twice before taking a fight against you.

    Best 3 junglers right now are easily Chen, Enchantress and Enigma. They don't need specific items for jungling and can have lane presence without any commitment. Although Prophet has some global presence Enigma outstrips him easily in early farming speed and lane control.
    Yeah, Enigma's jungle speed is just unreal, and you can even use conversion to deny creeps to give your other lanes a small XP advantage. I've always thought you were supposed to max conversions first to maximize jungle speed. Is maxing Malefice first just based on the game, or do you just feel that it's not worth it to max conversions first?

    Main issue with Enigma jungle is huge mana costs, but you can just chug clarities non stop since he isn't taking any damage to begin with.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    It is impossible for a tear of sadness to land on a Warrior Beard. As soon as the tear lands on the Warrior Beard, it is now a happy tear.
    5:10 AM - Everything Nice: PizzaSHARK, you're my stand in! You're promoted to like.. Semi-bestfriend.
    MMOC IRC!

  4. #2944
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I've always thought you were supposed to max conversions first to maximize jungle speed. Is maxing Malefice first just based on the game, or do you just feel that it's not worth it to max conversions first?
    i max conversions when my lane is pushing too hard
    if not, get malefice > gank and/or push

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Main issue with Enigma jungle is huge mana costs, but you can just chug clarities non stop since he isn't taking any damage to begin with.
    not really
    at lvl1 you buy sobi mask and 2-3 clarity rest spend on courier, ward or branches
    it is enought to get soul ring without buying additional clarities

  5. #2945
    Omni can jungle fine, most heroes can. You don't see it much because it really just doesn't add much to your team. Jungling is typically reserved for heroes who need gold and can't reliably get it in a lane. Enigma wants to rush his blink, Axe wants to rush his anything, N'aix/Lycan/Ursa can't really lane well against most anything.

    I've gone jungle Omni and done just fine (though I rushed Lothar's because I was trolling a 4 agility carry pub team), but I wasn't really rolling in gold or ahead in levels. Probably would've done about the same in lane.


    Also, Enigma's jungle is not really safe. A hero like DS can easily just run up to him at level 1 with ion shell and force him to the fountain instantly. Eidolons cost all of his mana and are extremely easy to smash at level 1/2. I have stolen Enigma camps before as DS, killing his 3 eidolons and then taking his 3satyrs is a quick level 2 to surge away if anyone tries to help. If they do, now you've screwed over TWO people on their team. The biggest thing about Enigma is that no one really ever invades him because he can just walk away since he will be full health and is ranged and has a stun.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-10-13 at 06:54 PM.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  6. #2946
    Over 9000! PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    9,885
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Omni can jungle fine, most heroes can. You don't see it much because it really just doesn't add much to your team. Jungling is typically reserved for heroes who need gold and can't reliably get it in a lane. Enigma wants to rush his blink, Axe wants to rush his anything, N'aix/Lycan/Ursa can't really lane well against most anything.

    I've gone jungle Omni and done just fine (though I rushed Lothar's because I was trolling a 4 agility carry pub team), but I wasn't really rolling in gold or ahead in levels. Probably would've done about the same in lane.
    In pubs people tend to see Omni as a pure support and get really uppity if you say something about needing farm. Jungle won't get you levels any faster than lane, but it'll get you more gold than if you were having to rely purely on pulls. And while I'd say Omni's useless for initiating a gank, he could pop out of the jungle to counter a gank, which I guess is useful.

    Also, Enigma's jungle is not really safe. A hero like DS can easily just run up to him at level 1 with ion shell and force him to the fountain instantly. Eidolons cost all of his mana and are extremely easy to smash at level 1/2. I have stolen Enigma camps before as DS, killing his 3 eidolons and then taking his 3satyrs is a quick level 2 to surge away if anyone tries to help. If they do, now you've screwed over TWO people on their team. The biggest thing about Enigma is that no one really ever invades him because he can just walk away since he will be full health and is ranged and has a stun.
    Venomancer can mess with Enigma for a couple of levels, too. DS fucks everyone because lol he's DS and a hero that's broken because he's too good at pretty much anything and everything. Ion Shell's just so damn versatile.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    It is impossible for a tear of sadness to land on a Warrior Beard. As soon as the tear lands on the Warrior Beard, it is now a happy tear.
    5:10 AM - Everything Nice: PizzaSHARK, you're my stand in! You're promoted to like.. Semi-bestfriend.
    MMOC IRC!

  7. #2947
    I don't know, people solo the long lane with DS all the time and it's pretty easy to stop. Last night I played a game with friends (RD I think it was) and we laned radiant pudge(me)/PA bot lane. I just sat in front of the wave - barely in EXP range - while PA farmed. DS was level 1 when we were level 5. He was probably getting gold from spamming shell, but he died twice without having surge (lolol stifling dagger > hook/rot). Eventually their Venomancer had to come bot and help just so he could get experience (we killed him, too, since he was underleveled from the trilane top).

    He can also be counter jungled by anyone with a hard nuke. See what ES can do with long range fissure. You have no way of finishing camps off quickly so he can just stand there until you have the camp at 100 health and take all of it with fissure.

    Wall of Replica is definitely absurd, though.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-10-14 at 06:19 PM.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  8. #2948
    Over 9000! PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    9,885
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I don't know, people solo the long lane with DS all the time and it's pretty easy to stop. Last night I played a game with friends (RD I think it was) and we laned radiant pudge(me)/PA bot lane. I just sat in front of the wave - barely in EXP range - while PA farmed. DS was level 1 when we were level 5. He was probably getting gold from spamming shell, but he died twice without having surge (lolol stifling dagger > hook/rot). Eventually their Venomancer had to come bot and help just so he could get experience (we killed him, too, since he was underleveled from the trilane top).

    He can also be counter jungled by anyone with a hard nuke. See what ES can do with long range fissure. You have no way of finishing camps off quickly so he can just stand there until you have the camp at 100 health and take all of it with fissure.

    Wall of Replica is definitely absurd, though.
    How were you threatening DS right from level 1? Pudge wouldn't be scary until level 2, and I'd certainly hope a solo DS would hit level 2 before a duo Pudge/PA lane.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    It is impossible for a tear of sadness to land on a Warrior Beard. As soon as the tear lands on the Warrior Beard, it is now a happy tear.
    5:10 AM - Everything Nice: PizzaSHARK, you're my stand in! You're promoted to like.. Semi-bestfriend.
    MMOC IRC!

  9. #2949
    They're all melee heroes, so with some proper denying is not impossible, also dagger+rot slow you to a crawl, so he'd have to be extra careful (rot's slow lasts a small duration, so by rapidly activating/canceling it you only take minor damage).

  10. #2950
    I'd assume something like this:

    DS walks to lane, shells creeps, pudge comes and rots the hell out of him. DS forced out, PA does't push lane, pudge keeps rotting DS cuz hes prolly too cool to shell himself and go fuck with pudge(and even if he does that, the pa can help pudge, and its a 2v1)

    also

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Unless you're a mongoloid and max Eidolons before Malefice.
    Wendy and I think that was a racist statment, mister Hermanni.

  11. #2951
    Yeah, DS had to tower hug the entire time. Especially once I was level 2 and he was still 1. He tried to shell me and fight but PA just blink strikes to him and he has to run anyway.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  12. #2952
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Yeah, DS had to tower hug the entire time. Especially once I was level 2 and he was still 1. He tried to shell me and fight but PA just blink strikes to him and he has to run anyway.
    I don't know but I feel a DS should be able to handle that lane, not that I've tried it myself or anything. By pushing the lane with Ion shell I feel like the next waves should come closer to his tower. And against two melees, Ion will harrass you a lot if you try to last hit.

  13. #2953
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    I don't know but I feel a DS should be able to handle that lane, not that I've tried it myself or anything. By pushing the lane with Ion shell I feel like the next waves should come closer to his tower. And against two melees, Ion will harrass you a lot if you try to last hit.
    Level 1 shell doesn't hurt that bad, PA just nuked the creep and denied after that.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  14. #2954
    Brewmaster
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    1,340
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Level 1 shell doesn't hurt that bad, PA just nuked the creep and denied after that.
    That's why you shell two creeps.

  15. #2955
    Pandaren Monk
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Illinois, USA
    Posts
    1,871
    Running into mana problems with that, though. He can't clarity because of the range on stifling dagger, so his mana would be pretty limited.

  16. #2956
    Over 9000! PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    9,885
    Definitely feeling like Blink Dagger should be core on Omni. He needs it for instant positioning and it's a lot better than Phase Boots for chasing/escaping. So far I've been getting Soul Ring, Basilius (which can be turned into Vlad's later for the damage aura and lifesteal), Arcane Boots, Orb of Venom, Mekansm, and then buying Blink Dagger and selling the Orb of Venom. Usually follow that with a Heaven's Halberd, and then typically a sheepstick or Shiva's.

    He's definitely not as weak as I used to consider him. His cast times are still ridiculously long, but having a Blink Dagger to compensate for his shitty cast ranges and cast times helps a lot. You definitely can't play him as anything less than, say, a 3. I think you could also probably field him as a 2 if he went for the Radiance build.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    It is impossible for a tear of sadness to land on a Warrior Beard. As soon as the tear lands on the Warrior Beard, it is now a happy tear.
    5:10 AM - Everything Nice: PizzaSHARK, you're my stand in! You're promoted to like.. Semi-bestfriend.
    MMOC IRC!

  17. #2957
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Definitely feeling like Blink Dagger should be core on Omni. He needs it for instant positioning and it's a lot better than Phase Boots for chasing/escaping. So far I've been getting Soul Ring, Basilius (which can be turned into Vlad's later for the damage aura and lifesteal), Arcane Boots, Orb of Venom, Mekansm, and then buying Blink Dagger and selling the Orb of Venom. Usually follow that with a Heaven's Halberd, and then typically a sheepstick or Shiva's.

    He's definitely not as weak as I used to consider him. His cast times are still ridiculously long, but having a Blink Dagger to compensate for his shitty cast ranges and cast times helps a lot. You definitely can't play him as anything less than, say, a 3. I think you could also probably field him as a 2 if he went for the Radiance build.
    I usually play him as a "bruiser" type hero. so My item build is More- Boots of travel, Basilius, Hyper stone (for armor only), a slow (SnY for extra speed, or the one that has maim and evasion- depending on needs) and Desolator. Its a build most don't expect and ends up working well if your team mates haven't feed all game, or ones self.

  18. #2958
    Pandaren Monk
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Illinois, USA
    Posts
    1,871
    If you were going to play Omni as a "bruiser," I would say that you would want to get Phase boots, Vlads, Soul Ring, and Halberd. If you still had money after that I'd pick up a AC or heart. You won't ever be able to put out the damage of a carry, but its nice to have such heavy slow, still have mana capabilities from soul ring, buff your melee carries with vlads, and halberd destroys ranged carries.

  19. #2959
    Over 9000! PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    9,885
    How did Tide escape nerfs in 6.75? Seems like a hero with no glaring weaknesses, just a good generalist that seems to be just a little too good at too many things, like DS was (arguably still is.) Okay, well, Ravage speed got nerfed some.

    But he otherwise was left untouched. All of his skills are very strong at every phase of the game, his stats are overall pretty good, and he doesn't need many items - usually just arcanes and blink dagger as necessities - so he can be played as a hard support effectively, but he's also effective when given some farm. He's seen in aggressive trilanes, is a fairly common solo offlane due to his immense tankiness without items, and can be effective in an aggressive duo lane role with Gush and Anchor smash for quick damage.

    Just seems like the guy's just a little too good at everything, maybe due to his complete non-reliance on items combined with his powerful skills (which all remain good even in the late game since they all scale decently.)
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    It is impossible for a tear of sadness to land on a Warrior Beard. As soon as the tear lands on the Warrior Beard, it is now a happy tear.
    5:10 AM - Everything Nice: PizzaSHARK, you're my stand in! You're promoted to like.. Semi-bestfriend.
    MMOC IRC!

  20. #2960
    Because the anchor smash nerf back in the DotA1 days was enough to make him a boring hero forever. R.I.P. carry TH </3

    Also, it seems that the balance changes were geared toward bringing other heroes up to this level instead of bringing heroes down. Morph is still mega stupid, increasing the mana cost of morph strength does not in any way/shape/form prevent him from diving past three towers at level 6 or escaping a 1v4 gank. At the same time, Jakiro made a massive leap up to at least A tier support and makes CM an extremely questionable pick for any occasion now, in my opinion. The buffs to Clock made his early game fantastic and Undying's tombstone is just absurd in all ways, taking him from easily one of the strongest laning experiences in the game right now to actual mid-game team fight initiation/utility. Many heroes that were rarely picked you will start to see very often as the community catches on to how awesome some of these changes are.

    Especially Jakiro. The new ice path is borderline too strong.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •