1. #2941
    Yeah, DS had to tower hug the entire time. Especially once I was level 2 and he was still 1. He tried to shell me and fight but PA just blink strikes to him and he has to run anyway.

  2. #2942
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Yeah, DS had to tower hug the entire time. Especially once I was level 2 and he was still 1. He tried to shell me and fight but PA just blink strikes to him and he has to run anyway.
    I don't know but I feel a DS should be able to handle that lane, not that I've tried it myself or anything. By pushing the lane with Ion shell I feel like the next waves should come closer to his tower. And against two melees, Ion will harrass you a lot if you try to last hit.

  3. #2943
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    I don't know but I feel a DS should be able to handle that lane, not that I've tried it myself or anything. By pushing the lane with Ion shell I feel like the next waves should come closer to his tower. And against two melees, Ion will harrass you a lot if you try to last hit.
    Level 1 shell doesn't hurt that bad, PA just nuked the creep and denied after that.

  4. #2944
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Level 1 shell doesn't hurt that bad, PA just nuked the creep and denied after that.
    That's why you shell two creeps.

  5. #2945
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    Running into mana problems with that, though. He can't clarity because of the range on stifling dagger, so his mana would be pretty limited.

  6. #2946
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    Definitely feeling like Blink Dagger should be core on Omni. He needs it for instant positioning and it's a lot better than Phase Boots for chasing/escaping. So far I've been getting Soul Ring, Basilius (which can be turned into Vlad's later for the damage aura and lifesteal), Arcane Boots, Orb of Venom, Mekansm, and then buying Blink Dagger and selling the Orb of Venom. Usually follow that with a Heaven's Halberd, and then typically a sheepstick or Shiva's.

    He's definitely not as weak as I used to consider him. His cast times are still ridiculously long, but having a Blink Dagger to compensate for his shitty cast ranges and cast times helps a lot. You definitely can't play him as anything less than, say, a 3. I think you could also probably field him as a 2 if he went for the Radiance build.
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  7. #2947
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Definitely feeling like Blink Dagger should be core on Omni. He needs it for instant positioning and it's a lot better than Phase Boots for chasing/escaping. So far I've been getting Soul Ring, Basilius (which can be turned into Vlad's later for the damage aura and lifesteal), Arcane Boots, Orb of Venom, Mekansm, and then buying Blink Dagger and selling the Orb of Venom. Usually follow that with a Heaven's Halberd, and then typically a sheepstick or Shiva's.

    He's definitely not as weak as I used to consider him. His cast times are still ridiculously long, but having a Blink Dagger to compensate for his shitty cast ranges and cast times helps a lot. You definitely can't play him as anything less than, say, a 3. I think you could also probably field him as a 2 if he went for the Radiance build.
    I usually play him as a "bruiser" type hero. so My item build is More- Boots of travel, Basilius, Hyper stone (for armor only), a slow (SnY for extra speed, or the one that has maim and evasion- depending on needs) and Desolator. Its a build most don't expect and ends up working well if your team mates haven't feed all game, or ones self.

  8. #2948
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    If you were going to play Omni as a "bruiser," I would say that you would want to get Phase boots, Vlads, Soul Ring, and Halberd. If you still had money after that I'd pick up a AC or heart. You won't ever be able to put out the damage of a carry, but its nice to have such heavy slow, still have mana capabilities from soul ring, buff your melee carries with vlads, and halberd destroys ranged carries.

  9. #2949
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    How did Tide escape nerfs in 6.75? Seems like a hero with no glaring weaknesses, just a good generalist that seems to be just a little too good at too many things, like DS was (arguably still is.) Okay, well, Ravage speed got nerfed some.

    But he otherwise was left untouched. All of his skills are very strong at every phase of the game, his stats are overall pretty good, and he doesn't need many items - usually just arcanes and blink dagger as necessities - so he can be played as a hard support effectively, but he's also effective when given some farm. He's seen in aggressive trilanes, is a fairly common solo offlane due to his immense tankiness without items, and can be effective in an aggressive duo lane role with Gush and Anchor smash for quick damage.

    Just seems like the guy's just a little too good at everything, maybe due to his complete non-reliance on items combined with his powerful skills (which all remain good even in the late game since they all scale decently.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  10. #2950
    Because the anchor smash nerf back in the DotA1 days was enough to make him a boring hero forever. R.I.P. carry TH </3

    Also, it seems that the balance changes were geared toward bringing other heroes up to this level instead of bringing heroes down. Morph is still mega stupid, increasing the mana cost of morph strength does not in any way/shape/form prevent him from diving past three towers at level 6 or escaping a 1v4 gank. At the same time, Jakiro made a massive leap up to at least A tier support and makes CM an extremely questionable pick for any occasion now, in my opinion. The buffs to Clock made his early game fantastic and Undying's tombstone is just absurd in all ways, taking him from easily one of the strongest laning experiences in the game right now to actual mid-game team fight initiation/utility. Many heroes that were rarely picked you will start to see very often as the community catches on to how awesome some of these changes are.

    Especially Jakiro. The new ice path is borderline too strong.

  11. #2951
    Could you for once at least attempt to properly articulate why Tidehunter needs to be nerfed? Other than hero is good, no weakness, op op op. My grandmother probably could tell you about Tides weaknesses in 2 seconds if I asked.

    But I agree, the old Anchor Smash was pretty hilarious. I do prefer the new one, but constantly doing pirouettes with Battle Fury was funny.

  12. #2952
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Especially Jakiro. The new ice path is borderline too strong.
    Seems like they increased the width of the path along with everything else. I do agree it's probably a little bit too good right now. Maybe an extra second or two on cooldown is needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Could you for once at least attempt to properly articulate why Tidehunter needs to be nerfed? Other than hero is good, no weakness, op op op. My grandmother probably could tell you about Tides weaknesses in 2 seconds if I asked.

    But I agree, the old Anchor Smash was pretty hilarious. I do prefer the new one, but constantly doing pirouettes with Battle Fury was funny.
    I already said - the guy seems to have no real glaring weaknesses. He has multiple ways to be laned, he's good with or without farm, and all of his skills are effective at all phases of the game. Gush is always good, Anchor Smash is a percentage so it scales, Kraken Shell becomes increasingly more powerful as the 600 HP threshold becomes proportionately less of Tide's total HP, and Ravage is Ravage.

    Why do you just blandly accept heroes being good at everything? Windrunner has the same versatility in laning and farm dependency, but she doesn't come with enormous late-game teamfight impact out of the box like Tidehunter does, able to completely wreck teamfights simply by being present, requiring items to get to that point.

    The problem is that Tide is just too good at basically everything. He doesn't excel at any one area where other heroes might do better than he does, but he has no real glaring weaknesses, either. Tide fits into basically any lineup in almost any position, picking him is almost a no-brainer.

    Venomancer might be another good example - a hero that's good at all stages of the game and has multiple ways to be laned - but the difference is Venomancer gets splattered all over the trees without items while Tide's huge STR combined with his toolkit make him extremely difficult to kill right out of the box.
    Last edited by PizzaSHARK; 2012-10-18 at 10:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  13. #2953
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUntsAhts View Post
    If you were going to play Omni as a "bruiser," I would say that you would want to get Phase boots, Vlads, Soul Ring, and Halberd. If you still had money after that I'd pick up a AC or heart. You won't ever be able to put out the damage of a carry, but its nice to have such heavy slow, still have mana capabilities from soul ring, buff your melee carries with vlads, and halberd destroys ranged carries.
    Missed this, Omni's swing is slow as shit, but out side of that he has decent damage and Degen aura is annoying as hell. Phase boots are a good start, but BoT and a SnY are where its at, SnY gives you maime and run speed that you other wise have to go manta/halberd for (2 slots- probably better options, needs testing) will agree with vlads- damage, life steal and mana are always a plus on melee mana heros. I'm not a fan of Soul ring in general, but medallion would be good choice too. All of that is what makes playing omni as a Bruiser possible.

    Massive slow with - halbred/SnY + Degen aura- degen aura also can help with early kills
    Follow Through- Phase/Bot + SnY/Manta - makes you one fast hero, combing that with degen makes it hard for non blink hero's to get away from you- w/ exceptions
    Enemy Armor Reduction - Medallion + Cuirass (from my previous post) - Cuirass gives you and your team increased speed + enemy armor reduction

    But the icing is that Omni scales well with armor and Hp. No hes not Dragon Knight or one of the others, but thats what the icing is, when you do finally get him low... Lol heal and fight continues.

  14. #2954
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I already said - the guy seems to have no real glaring weaknesses. He has multiple ways to be laned, he's good with or without farm, and all of his skills are effective at all phases of the game. Gush is always good, Anchor Smash is a percentage so it scales, Kraken Shell becomes increasingly more powerful as the 600 HP threshold becomes proportionately less of Tide's total HP, and Ravage is Ravage.

    Why do you just blandly accept heroes being good at everything? Windrunner has the same versatility in laning and farm dependency, but she doesn't come with enormous late-game teamfight impact out of the box like Tidehunter does, able to completely wreck teamfights simply by being present, requiring items to get to that point.

    The problem is that Tide is just too good at basically everything. He doesn't excel at any one area where other heroes might do better than he does, but he has no real glaring weaknesses, either. Tide fits into basically any lineup in almost any position, picking him is almost a no-brainer.

    Venomancer might be another good example - a hero that's good at all stages of the game and has multiple ways to be laned - but the difference is Venomancer gets splattered all over the trees without items while Tide's huge STR combined with his toolkit make him extremely difficult to kill right out of the box.
    You're just describing every support and utility hero in the game. Yes, Tide is good. But why is he too good? He isn't amazing in late-game where getting a good Ravage in time can be very hard againt one or more BKB's. You can reach a point where you're just a walking Ravage but whenever you're not landing spectacular ones that result in full team-wipes the enemy might be able to retreat, buy back if they lost someone and push your racks while you don't have Ravage. Tide is very mana-dependant as a melee support, meaning he will have little impact on lane without mana and can't chase people away from lanes easily. You're fairly useless against pushes until you hit level 6 or whenever your mana or Ravage are down.

    Tide's always been a good hero, but I don't see any reason to why he should be nerfed. Every hero in the game has serious weaknesses and it shouldn't take more than a moment of consideration to find them.

  15. #2955
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Tide's always been a good hero, but I don't see any reason to why he should be nerfed. Every hero in the game has serious weaknesses and it shouldn't take more than a moment of consideration to find them.
    And I'm not just randomly posting this stuff without stopping to consider - that's the thing. Remember when I said Morphling was broken and needed to be nerfed... and then they did? I wasn't basing that off a single game or my shit-tier pub games, but what I was seeing consistently in high-level play (both professional and just 1st/2nd page games.)

    Tide doesn't really have serious weaknesses; he has mana issues for the first 20 minutes like almost every STR hero, but arcane boots on him and/or his teammates eliminate that problem entirely (also maybe a bracer or two and of course a wand.)

    He starts with a decent amount of armor for a STR hero and has fairly middle of the road AGI for a STR hero. He has alright starting STR but very high STR gain meaning he quickly becomes very tanky even without items, and both Kraken Shell and Anchor Smash serve to further reduce the damage he takes.

    His skills also continue to be useful at all stages of the game - Anchor Smash simply scales as expected, Kraken Shell becomes increasingly useful as Tide has more HP, and Gush will still always be useful for the -5 armor if nothing else.

    I agree that Ravage can be trickier to use when the enemy team starts loading up on BKBs, but the enemy team just knowing you even have Ravage can make them use those BKBs earlier than they'd normally want to, shaving precious seconds off the effective time of the immunity (and one or two seconds is a big damn deal if you're down to a 5 sec BKB.) Tide's still useful even between Ravages because of Anchor Smash if nothing else, though I'll agree he's not nearly as big of a threat when Ravage is down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  16. #2956
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    And I'm not just randomly posting this stuff without stopping to consider - that's the thing. Remember when I said Morphling was broken and needed to be nerfed... and then they did? I wasn't basing that off a single game or my shit-tier pub games, but what I was seeing consistently in high-level play (both professional and just 1st/2nd page games.)
    Anyone could tell Morphling nerfs were coming, but whether he was broken or not is another thing. Your understanding of high level play has obviously not improved. I recall seeing your moronic postings on reddit about how Morphling single-handedly turned a million dollar tournament into a 'complete joke.' And yet people like you are possibly the reason he was getting buffs 5 months ago. Stop fretting about balance in a game you don't understand. More importantly, you should stop attempting to influence it because nothing good will follow.

    Tide doesn't really have serious weaknesses
    Sorry, but saying that doesn't make it true. You do the same thing every time - 5 paragraphs of explanation of how the hero and their skills work (which everyone should already know) and not an ounce of real argument as to why he is too good. Tides weakness is that his presence is nothing without Ravage - Yes you can Anchor Smash if you don't die before you get into position for it, and yes you can maybe Gush someone - but if your team relies on having a Ravage to win a teamfight, you might lose a game even after a seemingly good Ravage. Forcing earlier BKB's is a thing, but only if you don't lose players before you can Ravage and especially in lan environment it's even possible to dodge Ravage with a quick BKB. Besides that, he is melee which actually means he won't work on just any lane.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-10-18 at 02:05 PM.

  17. #2957
    Legendary! llDemonll's Avatar
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    I've been playing Windrunner a bunch recently when my team needed support. She's...very good. You really have to get used to setting up your stun but once you've got that, she works well. Nice thing is she has her built-in escape so you don't need to worry about any items to help there besides force staff (which you don't get for the escape anyhow)
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  18. #2958
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Anyone could tell Morphling nerfs were coming, but whether he was broken or not is another thing. Your understanding of high level play has obviously not improved. I recall seeing your moronic postings on reddit about how Morphling single-handedly turned a million dollar tournament into a 'complete joke.' And yet people like you are possibly the reason he was getting buffs 5 months ago. Stop fretting about balance in a game you don't understand. More importantly, you should stop attempting to influence it because nothing good will follow.
    Except I do understand it because it's not a particularly complex game. Once you understand what each hero does and what they do, it's really just a matter of turning knowledge into practical use. Sure, people talk about how deep and complex the pick/ban phases are... but in practice, it really isn't. There are always a core group of heroes that will be consistently picked and/or banned, for various reasons. You see more variety in inhouse games and amateur leagues, but you're still always going to see these particular heroes with consistency because they're simply better than the other choices.

    It's not hard to understand.

    Sorry, but saying that doesn't make it true. You do the same thing every time - 5 paragraphs of explanation of how the hero and their skills work (which everyone should already know) and not an ounce of real argument as to why he is too good.
    And you say this every single time and it continues to be meaningless. So why say it?

    Tides weakness is that his presence is nothing without Ravage - Yes you can Anchor Smash if you don't die before you get into position for it, and yes you can maybe Gush someone -
    Which equals kills at most stages of the game. Tide melees for a reasonable amount, he can tank an enormous amount of damage, and Gush combined with Anchor Smash and assistance from teammates equals a significant amount of damage. Tide turns into a walking ult by the late game, but he's strong in the early game so it'd be foolish to look only at his late game.

    Hell, Gush and Anchor Smash combined are strong enough to allow Tide to play aggressively in lane, which is why he's a fairly common sight in aggressive trilane setups.

    but if your team relies on having a Ravage to win a teamfight, you might lose a game even after a seemingly good Ravage. Forcing earlier BKB's is a thing, but only if you don't lose players before you can Ravage and especially in lan environment it's even possible to dodge Ravage with a quick BKB. Besides that, he is melee which actually means he won't work on just any lane.
    Well, obviously there are lanes you don't want to send him to, but it's been proven over and over that he's just fine soloing long lane (he won't get farm but he doesn't need it, really), he's strong in an aggressive duo lane, and he's seen fairly consistently in aggressive trilanes as well. He can even use Anchor Smash to farm stacked easy camps if he can't get XP/gold anywhere else, similar to what you'll sometimes see with Panda, though just like with Panda it's something you do when you're out of options.

    ---------- Post added 2012-10-18 at 10:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by llDemonll View Post
    I've been playing Windrunner a bunch recently when my team needed support. She's...very good. You really have to get used to setting up your stun but once you've got that, she works well. Nice thing is she has her built-in escape so you don't need to worry about any items to help there besides force staff (which you don't get for the escape anyhow)
    She's a little too team-reliant for my tastes. Past a certain point, Powershot lacks the oomph it once had and unless you built as a semi-carry, you're pretty much reliant on your team to do all the heavy lifting when you land a shackle.

    She's really fun when built as a semi-carry with things like Orchid or MKB, though. Her ulti's hilarious with MKB's microstun proc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  19. #2959
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    It's not hard to understand.
    Apparently it is because you seem to have completely misunderstood. The pros don't know pick the way you do because they know something that most players don't - that something being conclusive data about hero A being better than hero B or anything else for that matter. It's been said before many times but the picking trends have little to do with hero balance, too bad you seem to forget everything you can't counter-argue in about a week. The game isn't incredibly complex, but it's complex enough for people like you to think they know their shit and make themselves look like idiots time and time again.

    And you say this every single time and it continues to be meaningless. So why say it?
    Because I can undo what you do in 5 paragraphs in 1 sentence. I'll keep doing it since it's hilarious how you seem to forget anything you might have learned in a day.

    Tide turns into a walking ult by the late game, but he's strong in the early game so it'd be foolish to look only at his late game.
    So uh. Tides utility dies down in the late-game but he has good early game to make up for it... ergo he has no weaknesses?

  20. #2960
    Tide is beefy support hero with 4 defensive skills(2 damage reduction, 1 slow and 1 stun), and he's fairly item independent. You can't really nerf him without changing some or most of his skill toolset, he's just too good designed hero. Ravage is easy to use, anchor screws over enemy carries, and he can easily survive after blinking into enemy team. If you want to counter him, improve on your teamplay, else you have to realize that dota isn't balanced around pubs.

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