1. #3121
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
    Please think before you post. Invoker and Drow has identical base strength and strength gain. Drow has more armor. So at worst nuked from 100 to 0 they are the same. Realistically you would have auto attack damage which is mitigated by armor. Now back to the hilarious part
    No1 said they have different hp clever guy I just said armor means no shit because nuke comes from magical damage at early game where draw is easy target.

    You can't even understand the discussion and form a good answer...An ability that most users/players lack in mmo-c thesedays. I'm done with Trax discussion.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-10-31 at 09:42 AM.

  2. #3122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    No1 said they have different hp clever guy I just said armor means no shit because nuke comes from magical damage at early game where draw is easy target.

    You can't even understand the discussion and form a good answer...An ability that most users/players lack in mmo-c thesedays. I'm done with Trax discussion.
    Invoker and Drow have pretty similar STR; 19+1.7 versus 17+1.9. Invoker might have a slight edge if he's stacking Quas but Drow will usually buy Wraith Bands for stats which will also pretty much even them out again.

    They're both really vulnerable to ganks, especially while Invoker's still low level and doesn't have many spells on hand at any given time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  3. #3123
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Interesting concept, though I'd guess that'd still make them really fragile against heroes with high attack speeds. How would it handle creeps attacking them?
    Good point, though I don't see why creeps need the ability to attack them at all. As usual, they could just make it so that creeps do 1/4 of an attack or something.

  4. #3124
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    All of which require timing and positioning, and hiding them in trees doesn't work if the enemy knows how Visage works. Hell, just buying a quelling blade (or having anyone with tree-destroying spells) can pretty much eliminate the majority of safe hiding spots for them.
    Nope, because spotting familiars in the treelines on the sides of sidelanes is next to impossible without flying vision, and in mid it's easy to hide them in the major tree formations or the ancient areas. In general as long as you know the rough positioning of your enemy, it's very hard for them to even know where your familiars are.

    Flying is a double edged sword because it means you can't bodyblock, which is fairly significant. Granted you can drop a stun on someone, but that's got a cooldown and in almost all cases they don't move fast enough to outrun someone and then drop a stun on them. Using familiars to counter juking is questionable because their vision radius is extremely small. To effectively counter juking they would need to be following the target to begin with.
    And the other side is that you can't get body blocked by your familiars. Stunning around Visage is easy considering you have Grave Chill, and any snare or stun from a teammate makes it easy for you to chain the familiar stuns. Even without external CC, however, Familiars do actually outrun most heroes and because they fly you can cut them off over trees and cliffs. Juking is mostly a thing you do to escape so it would be pretty safe to assume you've got familiars following them to begin with whenever possible.

    The only impressive damage I've ever seen out of familiars is due to Drow aura, which I doubt will ever make it into Captains Mode. Their burst potential is impressive, but they're so fragile it's like saying Dirge's zombies do a ton of damage as long as people don't attack the Tombstone.
    Then you haven't been paying attention. Unlike Tombstone, Familiars don't even need to survive for long because they do 80% of their damage in the first 2.4 seconds after which you're virtually free to Stone Form them. 500 physical damage in 2 seconds is a lot at level 6.

    Yeah, I wouldn't expect Tinker to blast a familiar in a teamfight, but if they know where the familiars are cooping it's not hard to ambush them. Omniknight will almost certainly kill one or both of them without even trying since being close enough to attack/stun means they're easily inside Purification's blast zone. Come to think of it, Omniknight in general seems like he'd be a strong pick against Visage since Repel blocks both Grave Chill and Soul Assumption and his ulti and heal either negate or outright kill the familiars.
    Yes, there's counters to everything, but again a good Visage player wouldn't just fly them on top of someone when Omniknight is near or hasn't used his heal.

    The only change I really think they need right away is to have fucking neutral creeps stop randomly taking a shot at them as they fly by. Crossing the map with them safely is a real chore.
    One word: waypoints. Might slow you down but it's safer and not difficult. Same goes to courier usage, I've seen too many guys send a walking courier through the woods to its death because waypointing it through the lane is apparently too hard.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-10-31 at 12:53 PM.

  5. #3125
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    No1 said they have different hp clever guy I just said armor means no shit because nuke comes from magical damage at early game where draw is easy target.

    You can't even understand the discussion and form a good answer...An ability that most users/players lack in mmo-c thesedays. I'm done with Trax discussion.
    Says the pro Dota player who ganks with only magical damage

    btw @PizzaShark good catch on the base str + str gain. I remembered it wrong. Now that would have been a valid point of contention.
    Last edited by Jinto; 2012-10-31 at 01:29 PM.

  6. #3126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    One word: waypoints. Might slow you down but it's safer and not difficult. Same goes to courier usage, I've seen too many guys send a walking courier through the woods to its death because waypointing it through the lane is apparently too hard.
    Yeah. Waypoints work but god help you if you have to make a correction after issuing it because an enemy hero happened to be in the area.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  7. #3127
    Quote Originally Posted by Jinto View Post
    Says the pro Dota player who ganks with only magical damage
    This is post of yours proves my point about you not being able to form a proper counter argument.

    @PizzaSHARK
    Invoker is vulnerable to ganks until level 3. Depending on your build, you always have one or two escape mechanism in your arsenal where Trax has nothing until shadowblade. Invoker has one of the highest chance of survival when it comes to gank in entire game. Have you ever played with invoker? I bet you did and failed miserably.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-10-31 at 04:43 PM.

  8. #3128
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    This is post of yours proves my point about you not being able to form a proper counter argument.

    @PizzaSHARK
    Invoker is vulnerable to ganks until level 3. Depending on your build, you always have one or two escape mechanism in your arsenal where Trax has nothing until shadowblade. Invoker has one of the highest chance of survival when it comes to gank in entire game. Have you ever played with invoker? I bet you did and failed miserably.
    Lol you seem to be lost. My argument has been very straightforward. To quote myself: "Anyway is Drow tankier than Invoker? Sure. Similar health pool but Drow has retarded amounts of agi aka armor. Is Invoker harder to gank than Drow? Obviously." A "squishy" hero is taken to mean how much damage a hero can live through, typically in a gank scenario. It is fair to say Puck as a hero is pretty squishy at 15+1.7. However that does not mean Puck is easy to gank.
    Last edited by Jinto; 2012-10-31 at 06:15 PM.

  9. #3129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    This is post of yours proves my point about you not being able to form a proper counter argument.

    @PizzaSHARK
    Invoker is vulnerable to ganks until level 3. Depending on your build, you always have one or two escape mechanism in your arsenal where Trax has nothing until shadowblade. Invoker has one of the highest chance of survival when it comes to gank in entire game. Have you ever played with invoker? I bet you did and failed miserably.
    Invoker wasn't really my kind of hero, but I've ganked him dozens of times and seen him ganked even more. It's not hard. He only has two spells until level 7 and those are limited in potency. Ghost Walk sucks as an escape method, tornado only lasts a second, Cold Feet requires you to keep attacking, etc.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  10. #3130
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Invoker wasn't really my kind of hero, but I've ganked him dozens of times and seen him ganked even more. It's not hard. He only has two spells until level 7 and those are limited in potency. Ghost Walk sucks as an escape method, tornado only lasts a second, Cold Feet requires you to keep attacking, etc.
    It's funny that you mention cold snap as a survival skill but forgot ice wall(a good icewall only countered by blink or forcestaff) and defiling blast. Other than that, I didn't claim invoker is ungankable he is just one of the hardest heroes to gank saying he's as hard as killing trax or even comparing them in terms of survival plain stupid.

  11. #3131
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    So I'm beginning to think Silencer is anti-fun crystallized, fermented, and refined. He's balanced, but is simply the most annoying, frustrating single hero I can think of to have to play against for the majority of the game. Curse combos are just frustrating as hell.

    Silencer tags you with Curse of the Silent. If you cast, you blow a lot of mana presumably without using it effectively. If you don't cast, you take some damage and lose a lot of mana.

    Once Silencer gets the new Last Word, it gets worse. If you cast, you're consuming mana inefficiently and will get hit with Last Word immediately after. If you don't cast, you lose a lot of mana and some health and get hit with Last Word immediately after. Not at all overpowered, but just annoying as shit to have to deal with, complete anti-fun.

    On a related note, I really don't like the design on Last Word. I really think that it should be a choice on the victim whether they want to be silenced now or be disarmed later, with the only constant being that you WILL take damage from it at some point. Right now, if you cast, you get silenced. If you don't cast, you get disarmed and then silenced anyway.

    It seems like it doesn't really encourage much thought on Silencer's part or the victim's part because Last Word is always going to be good to cast on anyone and everyone, rather than trying to decide "okay should I put this on the carry to try and force them to use blink at a bad time, or do I want it on a support to prevent a spell combo?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  12. #3132
    I agree. Last Word is pretty thoughtless and therefore boring.

    Also, I played diretide last night and it was pretty fun, a massive zerg from the first minute for the candy. I log on today and everyone is laning like it's a normal game, what happened? Enemy veno comes up to my bucket at level 1 and starts taking candy, I try to stop him but he gales and walks away. The hero mid just stands there and never comes to help.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-01 at 08:45 AM.

  13. #3133
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I agree. Last Word is pretty thoughtless and therefore boring.

    Also, I played diretide last night and it was pretty fun, a massive zerg from the first minute for the candy. I log on today and everyone is laning like it's a normal game, what happened? Enemy veno comes up to my bucket at level 1 and starts taking candy, I try to stop him but he gales and walks away. The hero mid just stands there and never comes to help.
    I played Diretide all night with friends and it was funny, even some people took it a bit too seriously. Reminded me of -em dota in that aspect but with more fun and actually more balance. The only attempts at actual laning I saw were mostly people who didn't know how the mode worked. It would probably have been more fun if you couldn't just deny or courier stash the candy. Often either team would raid the other teams bucket at level 1 and then either us or them would retaliate with another bucket raid, and when candy was turned in everyone would be level 8 with 2800 gold 1,5 minutes in.

    The thing with Last Word is that in the old model Silencer had no way of reliably doing magic damage or even silencing the enemy without his ultimate. If the enemy Silencer skills q/e and hits you with Last Word you have the option of backing off without using your mana/cooldown and getting hit by CotS or you can go agressive and nail him with a Storm Bolt. I'd still rather lane that than a half-decent Silencer going Glaive/stats, the caster version can keep you off the creeps for a while but the guy with the orb sends you to you base before you know what hit you.

  14. #3134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    I played Diretide all night with friends and it was funny, even some people took it a bit too seriously. Reminded me of -em dota in that aspect but with more fun and actually more balance. The only attempts at actual laning I saw were mostly people who didn't know how the mode worked. It would probably have been more fun if you couldn't just deny or courier stash the candy. Often either team would raid the other teams bucket at level 1 and then either us or them would retaliate with another bucket raid, and when candy was turned in everyone would be level 8 with 2800 gold 1,5 minutes in.

    The thing with Last Word is that in the old model Silencer had no way of reliably doing magic damage or even silencing the enemy without his ultimate. If the enemy Silencer skills q/e and hits you with Last Word you have the option of backing off without using your mana/cooldown and getting hit by CotS or you can go agressive and nail him with a Storm Bolt. I'd still rather lane that than a half-decent Silencer going Glaive/stats, the caster version can keep you off the creeps for a while but the guy with the orb sends you to you base before you know what hit you.
    Yeah, I still think that Curse is ultimately less effective than the extra stats early on, but it's godawfully frustrating to lane against.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  15. #3135
    Three games in a row now, 1 top 1 mid 2 bot and me and one other person on the enemy team attacking buckets. It would be so easy for mid to come gank them but no one seems to care. Guess it's time to pick nothing but cheap heroes so that I can win by myself...

    I mean, I'm getting 2-3 allies a game who NEVER go near the bucket in the entire 20 minutes. Lane lane lane, maybe when they get 10 candies they drop them off and back to laning. No attack, no defense, most of them get ganked and lose their candy long before they feel like leaving.

  16. #3136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Three games in a row now, 1 top 1 mid 2 bot and me and one other person on the enemy team attacking buckets. It would be so easy for mid to come gank them but no one seems to care. Guess it's time to pick nothing but cheap heroes so that I can win by myself...

    I mean, I'm getting 2-3 allies a game who NEVER go near the bucket in the entire 20 minutes. Lane lane lane, maybe when they get 10 candies they drop them off and back to laning. No attack, no defense, most of them get ganked and lose their candy long before they feel like leaving.
    Haven't even bothered with Diretide, though I guess I should. Personally if you want to autowin everything I'd probably go with Viper. He's a bit squishy but his orb combined with the free hood and slows make him really brutal and it's sounding like Diretide isn't meant to have much laning.

    If that's the case I'll probably just use the opportunity to work on my Visage some more.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  17. #3137
    It's hard to say. It's a lot like real DotA in that you can counter any strategy by leaving it alone and going somewhere else. Just won a game because we were 4v5ing and they ended up turtling for the last 2 minutes ahead by 15 or so. Meanwhile tinker teleported around and collected 20 candy in those two minutes from the lanes and we won in the last 3 seconds. Because the candy is so important you can't really ignore anyone on the map.

  18. #3138
    Deleted
    I've never played any Dota game before, but I love Valve and I'm thinking about buying this game. Looking at the heroes, most of them seem pretty dull, but the Ogre Magi catched my eye, as a mage/blood DK on WoW this is a wet dream with a spellcasting semi-tank. So does anyone know how balanced the Ogre Magi is, is he OP, UP or is he balanced? And is he really all that fun to play, for those that have played him?

  19. #3139
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomatketchup View Post
    I've never played any Dota game before, but I love Valve and I'm thinking about buying this game. Looking at the heroes, most of them seem pretty dull, but the Ogre Magi catched my eye, as a mage/blood DK on WoW this is a wet dream with a spellcasting semi-tank. So does anyone know how balanced the Ogre Magi is, is he OP, UP or is he balanced? And is he really all that fun to play, for those that have played him?
    Buying your way in is pretty redundant since they gave out a ridiculous amount of invites recently. If you PM me your SteamID I can toss you an invite.

    Ogre Magi is aight. Frustrating to play against, frustrating to play - as most RNG heroes are.

  20. #3140
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomatketchup View Post
    I've never played any Dota game before, but I love Valve and I'm thinking about buying this game. Looking at the heroes, most of them seem pretty dull, but the Ogre Magi catched my eye, as a mage/blood DK on WoW this is a wet dream with a spellcasting semi-tank. So does anyone know how balanced the Ogre Magi is, is he OP, UP or is he balanced? And is he really all that fun to play, for those that have played him?
    If you want to get as close to "blood dk" experience as possible Undying is the hero that does it. He heals himself a lot with his damaging abilities, is hard to kill and spawns an army of zombies.

    Dota has existed for a long time and the balance has been improved a lot over the years. There aren't any heroes that are flat out "bad" or "underpowered" in the game, nor any blatantly overpowered ones. Some heroes can be really powerful among inexperienced players, though. If you're new to the genre, you should probably pick some fairly straightforward heroes (like that Ogre Magi) and play against bots in the beginning, there is a lot you will have to learn and picking a complicated hero won't make it easier.

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