1. #3421
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    12,532
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    would you be as kind as to elaborate on your view on how and what is unbalanced in dota besides imba-stuns?
    pretty please?
    It's less about numbers and more about mechanics. I don't like how easy some of the most powerful skills and abilities are to use - too many skills are "press button, click target, collect gold," and aren't particularly demanding on player input. When those abilities are also tied to a disable that completely prevents the victim from acting, and those abilities can be effortlessly stacked on top of each other with zero drawback to continually prevent the victim from doing anything, it gets stupid. I compare this to the shooters I've played competitively in the past, or even Brood War (which I didn't stick with long enough to really play competitively, but which I've watched quite a bit), and I just feel like these kinds of mechanics are holding the game back from being really skill-based.

    There are a lot of RNG mechanics that don't really seem to add much, and could be replaced with something consistent - random chance to miss attacking uphill with a ranged attack, random chance to crit, random chance to dodge, Chaos Bolt stuns and damages for a random amount within set limits, and so on. Over the course of an entire game or several games it evens out (otherwise the mechanic would deemed broken in some way and I'd assume something would've been done about it), but that's not really much consolation when you might win a game you should've lost because you rolled a 20 instead of an 18.

    I'm not a fan of how carries can often grow to become virtually unstoppable after a certain point. I agree that it's possible to delay that point, and I've seen professional teams pull it off plenty of times, but I still don't feel that's an acceptable mechanic for a game that's purportedly a skill-based game... especially when the majority of the gameplay for a carry consists of "right-click a target, continue right-clicking until all targets are gone, and then right-click to somewhere else."

    I'm just disappointed that, after close to 400 hours in Dota 2 (and however many hours of Dota back in ~2004-2005), the game still seems to be mostly about spamming disables and less about real, skill-intensive actions, especially when you compare it to a proper shooter like Quake or UT, or even the more indie-style ones like Nexuiz (haven't looked at the new version, talking about the old one) or Warsow, where it's literally your skill against their skill and nothing else.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    MMOC IRC!

  2. #3422
    By such a logic we can safely conclude that hook-rot-ulti combination executed by a pudge is a prime example of click-collect gold gameplay you are talking about.
    Have you ever done WoW arena?
    It is the most natural thing, to stack stuns i.e. - Crowd Control.
    Either you accept and adapt, or you dont.
    thats it.

  3. #3423
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    It's less about numbers and more about mechanics. I don't like how easy some of the most powerful skills and abilities are to use - too many skills are "press button, click target, collect gold," and aren't particularly demanding on player input. When those abilities are also tied to a disable that completely prevents the victim from acting, and those abilities can be effortlessly stacked on top of each other with zero drawback to continually prevent the victim from doing anything, it gets stupid. I compare this to the shooters I've played competitively in the past, or even Brood War (which I didn't stick with long enough to really play competitively, but which I've watched quite a bit), and I just feel like these kinds of mechanics are holding the game back from being really skill-based.

    There are a lot of RNG mechanics that don't really seem to add much, and could be replaced with something consistent - random chance to miss attacking uphill with a ranged attack, random chance to crit, random chance to dodge, Chaos Bolt stuns and damages for a random amount within set limits, and so on. Over the course of an entire game or several games it evens out (otherwise the mechanic would deemed broken in some way and I'd assume something would've been done about it), but that's not really much consolation when you might win a game you should've lost because you rolled a 20 instead of an 18.

    I'm not a fan of how carries can often grow to become virtually unstoppable after a certain point. I agree that it's possible to delay that point, and I've seen professional teams pull it off plenty of times, but I still don't feel that's an acceptable mechanic for a game that's purportedly a skill-based game... especially when the majority of the gameplay for a carry consists of "right-click a target, continue right-clicking until all targets are gone, and then right-click to somewhere else."

    I'm just disappointed that, after close to 400 hours in Dota 2 (and however many hours of Dota back in ~2004-2005), the game still seems to be mostly about spamming disables and less about real, skill-intensive actions, especially when you compare it to a proper shooter like Quake or UT, or even the more indie-style ones like Nexuiz (haven't looked at the new version, talking about the old one) or Warsow, where it's literally your skill against their skill and nothing else.
    I think, you are playing the wrong type of game, if you don't like those "random mechanics".

    Try Starcraft 2. No random mechanics there, entirely skill based.

    I play both, when I want to rely on my own skill entirely, for a pure 1v1 experience, I play SC2.

    When I want to have fun but remain mildly competitive in a less structured yet more adventurous game I play Dota2 - a game that is easy to play with friends.

    Dota 2 is incredibly balanced for what it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lugo Moll View Post
    Consider this philosophical question: If Blizz fails, but noone is there to see it. Will there still be QQ?

  4. #3424
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    If Icefrog can't get his head out of his ass and figure out how to fix all the stupid, no-skill-required bullshit mechanics in that game, it ain't worth the time.
    You speak like you are a professional player who earns money from the game or a game designer who knows a lot about balancing the game. But you are neither of these. I'm sure that IceFrog knows and understands better than you and maybe he knows something you do not? I suggest you to give less shit to balancing, competitive scene and all that crap and try to enjoy the game more. Besides, the game feels balanced atm. I honestly think its you failing, not the "stupid" mechanics of the game. Maybe you are not experienced or skilled enough?
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-11-14 at 02:25 PM.

  5. #3425
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Oklahoma, USA
    Posts
    12,532
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    You speak like you are a professional player who earns money from the game or a game designer who knows a lot about balancing the game. But you are neither of these. I'm sure that IceFrog knows and understands better than you and maybe he knows something you do not? I suggest you to give less shit to balancing, competitive scene and all that crap and try to enjoy the game more. Besides, the game feels balanced atm. I honestly think its you failing, not the "stupid" mechanics of the game. Maybe you are not experienced or skilled enough?
    Game design is not hard. The issue is that these mechanics are in the game to make it "exciting," given that the way the game is designed doesn't really allow for excitement based purely off of watching a player's skill showcase something truly special.

    Tobi, for example, flips his shit when Dendi disjoints a projectile with a blink dagger or whatever, and while it's impressive compared to the average player, it's just a standard twitch reaction, the kinds of which happen dozens of times in a single match of Quake or UT.

    Honestly, taking a step back and looking at it, I'm seeing a hell of a lot of similarities between WoW's PvP and Dota - garbage mechanics (lol, you don't get to play for X seconds!) in place to make up for the inability for the game to showcase actual talent or skill. Whether that's intentional or because Dota was originally built on the much weaker War3 engine... who knows? It's irrelevant, either way.

    Dota's fun as a casual game, I guess, but the sheer amount of information you have to have memorized just to not feed already makes it really hostile to newbies, which seems like it defeats the purpose. I sure as hell can't take Dota seriously as a competitive game.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    MMOC IRC!

  6. #3426
    Fluffy Kitten llDemonll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    6,582
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    It's less about numbers and more about mechanics. I don't like how easy some of the most powerful skills and abilities are to use - too many skills are "press button, click target, collect gold," and aren't particularly demanding on player input. When those abilities are also tied to a disable that completely prevents the victim from acting, and those abilities can be effortlessly stacked on top of each other with zero drawback to continually prevent the victim from doing anything, it gets stupid. I compare this to the shooters I've played competitively in the past, or even Brood War (which I didn't stick with long enough to really play competitively, but which I've watched quite a bit), and I just feel like these kinds of mechanics are holding the game back from being really skill-based.
    How do you propose the game is handled then? There is no "aiming" to learn like CS, there is no micro like SC

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    There are a lot of RNG mechanics that don't really seem to add much, and could be replaced with something consistent - random chance to miss attacking uphill with a ranged attack, random chance to crit, random chance to dodge, Chaos Bolt stuns and damages for a random amount within set limits, and so on. Over the course of an entire game or several games it evens out (otherwise the mechanic would deemed broken in some way and I'd assume something would've been done about it), but that's not really much consolation when you might win a game you should've lost because you rolled a 20 instead of an 18.
    Random keeps it interesting. I personally am glad it's there. I can use my uphill advantage mid to harass and say "eh the 50/50 chance (or whatever it is) of him striking back is worth it to get a few attacks in on him to harass". Are crit items bad as well? They are all random

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I'm not a fan of how carries can often grow to become virtually unstoppable after a certain point. I agree that it's possible to delay that point, and I've seen professional teams pull it off plenty of times, but I still don't feel that's an acceptable mechanic for a game that's purportedly a skill-based game... especially when the majority of the gameplay for a carry consists of "right-click a target, continue right-clicking until all targets are gone, and then right-click to somewhere else."
    I'm curious how else a carry should scale then

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I'm just disappointed that, after close to 400 hours in Dota 2 (and however many hours of Dota back in ~2004-2005), the game still seems to be mostly about spamming disables and less about real, skill-intensive actions, especially when you compare it to a proper shooter like Quake or UT, or even the more indie-style ones like Nexuiz (haven't looked at the new version, talking about the old one) or Warsow, where it's literally your skill against their skill and nothing else.
    You still can't compare a game like DOTA2 to a shooter like CS or quake. they are two entirely different games requiring entirely different skill-sets
    "I'm glad you play better than you read/post on forums." -Ninety
    BF3 Profile | Steam Profile | Assemble a Computer in 9.75 Steps! | Video Rendering Done Right

  7. #3427
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Game design is not hard. The issue is that these mechanics are in the game to make it "exciting," given that the way the game is designed doesn't really allow for excitement based purely off of watching a player's skill showcase something truly special.

    Tobi, for example, flips his shit when Dendi disjoints a projectile with a blink dagger or whatever, and while it's impressive compared to the average player, it's just a standard twitch reaction, the kinds of which happen dozens of times in a single match of Quake or UT.

    Honestly, taking a step back and looking at it, I'm seeing a hell of a lot of similarities between WoW's PvP and Dota - garbage mechanics (lol, you don't get to play for X seconds!) in place to make up for the inability for the game to showcase actual talent or skill. Whether that's intentional or because Dota was originally built on the much weaker War3 engine... who knows? It's irrelevant, either way.

    Dota's fun as a casual game, I guess, but the sheer amount of information you have to have memorized just to not feed already makes it really hostile to newbies, which seems like it defeats the purpose. I sure as hell can't take Dota seriously as a competitive game.
    I really hate this "I can't take x game seriously because of RNG mechanics". Or "I hate games that take away control from the player, it's so unskillful".

    The problem is not the mechanics themselves, it's the player. You will blame your death's, and your own faults on RNG, or the fact that someone used a flat cc, when in actuality the problem is your own. It, like in any other game, is an obstacle, that you learn to deal with - and play with. It's like saying "I only died because PA got a massive crit off"... what you really mean is, I didn't anticipate that I might die because of a variable which I apparently knew, yet gambled at the expense of my team anyway.

    Regarding your stun complaints, I really don't know what to say.

    If you don't like that, as I have already said, try SC2, there is no RNG there, it may be more enjoyable for you. With that being said, I can imagine you being a bronze leaguer complaining about force fields, drop harass or stealth mechanics.

    And for the record, if you have played any game at a professional or semi-professional level, you will know that the difference between semi-pro's and pro's in multiplayer games is generally one thing - teamwork. Individual skill in the games, between the top 5%, is often identical, with a few players being exceptionally gifted, while most being the same.

    Teamwork is present in dota2 massively, in fact, it is the core of the game. Which is why I can take the dota2 competitive scene seriously.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lugo Moll View Post
    Consider this philosophical question: If Blizz fails, but noone is there to see it. Will there still be QQ?

  8. #3428
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    It's less about numbers and more about mechanics.
    If you ever expected anything else, you've effectively wasted 400 hours.

    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    I compare this to the shooters I've played competitively in the past
    Out of curiosity, what shooters have you played competitively?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    On the eggs, I'm betting they hatch when the patch hits, if not sooner. If anyone has a spare Quas essence, I wouldn't mind trading it if I have something you'd like. profile
    I've some spare essences I don't care for, you don't have anything I want - added you.

    Regular Dota

    Ranked Only
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRu0xts_rpI

  9. #3429
    Any of you guys up for a match or two, drop me a PM.

  10. #3430
    No game is more demanding than Brood War and BW had plenty of random mechanics, like the uphill miss chance that was an important tactical mechanic also in WC3 and DotA. Reaver Scarabs were another thing that was fairly random and made your hold your breath when watching tournament play.

    @Pizza you keep saying things like "game design is not hard" "drafting isn't that complex" "mechanics are garbage and game isn't skillful" but they haven't really resonated with anyone so far, and you're far from being the most experienced or skilled player in this thread. I've disputed your rants more than I can remember, but when pressured you always either change subject or go on a baseless yet agressive rant about said "garbage mechanics" or whatever Icefrog might have snorted this week.

    Again you're only making aggressive statements that only have base in your opinion, and like I warned you, you're not being taken seriously. Maybe it's about time you just accepted that maybe skill means something else than just aiming skillshots, that carrying means something else than farming and a-clicking, that drafting means something else than just picking imba heroes, or that you're still much further from understanding the game than you think.

    Like I said before: if you want perspective on where Dota's balance is right now, go check out HoN, it's free. Meanwhile just either try to enjoy the game without getting angry, or if you can't, play something else.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-11-14 at 06:40 PM.



    Manni | paragon.fi | Dota 2 forum | The golden rule: Listen to Lysah.

  11. #3431
    Legendary! Tommo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    6,608
    Sooo..

    We allowed to talk about this, http://www.reddit.com/r/DOTA/comment...stored/c70dlon

    >_>

  12. #3432
    @Pizza, @Lysah

    I don't know if I understand you guys. I think I've rarely seen someone complain about something for so long and continue to do it. I've been following this thread for quite some time, and every time either of you post, I put on my best "Here we go again" hat.

    Is dota2 100% balanced in each and every possible way? Probably not. But thats why they continue to make updates as best they can. If you don't enjoy the game or watching competitive play, then don't play it. I happen to think dota2 is extremely fun, I'd say in only about 10% of the games I'm in do I find it painful. That's usually do to myself playing poorly and we end up losing, or lousy teammates. And tbh, I don't even mind bad teammates that much, the worst thing is teammates that are assclowns, but that's inevitable in any online game I suppose.

    Pizza, you claim that dota competitive players do things that any skilled FPS player does regularly. Then why are you still watching dota competitive games. No one is forcing you to. If it isn't up the unbelievably high standard you might have, then just move on from dota. There are plenty of other games out there. For example, I played GW2 for a little bit. I didn't care for it. But I didn't keep playing it and repeatedly post on their message boards about how awful the game is and how bad pro players are (if there even are pro GW2 players, I'm not sure). That would be foolish.

    If dota2 is as simple to master as the two of you make it seem, why don't you go pro? Apparently CM picking so easy, and playstyle is so easy, and all you need to do is chain stuns, and all carries need to do is right click things... Then man, you should be playing in next years TI3, right? And maybe this game is so easy, that you don't even want to be bothered, well then why aren't you playing something that's more on your skill level and flooding that game's message boards up with whining?

    It's just a shame that 50% of this thread's posts are either "OMG XYZ IS SO OP, NERF THIS AND NERF THAT", "ICEFROG IS A MORON", etc etc.

    If you don't enjoy this game, don't play it. Not sure why this is a difficult concept.

  13. #3433
    Fluffy Kitten llDemonll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    6,582
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Sooo..

    We allowed to talk about this, http://www.reddit.com/r/DOTA/comment...stored/c70dlon

    >_>
    I'd rather not because I have a feeling it will turn into a circlejerk bash-fest, but there's nothing stopping you from it

    The backstory for those who don't know:
    Pendragon (currently a Riot employee) owned and ran the dota-allstars.com website back in the day. He was going to move the website to a new server and said the site was going to be down for a week while they migrated the database and everything (a week is a long time for a database migration).

    This was ~2 years ago. A year ago, someone asked him about what happened to the site and he said he ran out of time and was working on getting it back up just for the archives and such. He, again, estimated it'd be down for a week. Well, that was a year ago and just yesterday the database files were released. Reliable chap, eh?

    The thing that makes the story such a big deal was that dota-allstars.com was THE go-to place for DOTA material and chatting. It was like the mmo-champ for dota. Some people only had friendships there (this wasn't steam, mind you) and no other way of contacting those people. An entire community was killed off in one fell swoop.

    Pendragon then had the bright idea of replacing the dota-allstars.com landing page with a big LoL advertisement because he went to work there, and later on he wrote a letter that tried to blame Icefrog for something, but I didn't read this letter and don't know much about it. Recently he tried to make a big positive PR stunt by releasing the database files of dota-allstars.com but people basically just shit all over him
    "I'm glad you play better than you read/post on forums." -Ninety
    BF3 Profile | Steam Profile | Assemble a Computer in 9.75 Steps! | Video Rendering Done Right

  14. #3434
    Legendary! Tommo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    6,608
    Quote Originally Posted by llDemonll View Post
    -snip-
    Wasnt sure if theres another thread for it or not, from what ive seen none of the dota fans have anything against LoL players, but I can see a flamefest occuring if we were to mention the copied hero accusations.

    Honestly the whole thing makes me sick, im willing to bet the files have been heavily edited over those years, but ill not say anymore.

  15. #3435
    Fluffy Kitten llDemonll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    6,582
    Well, any MOBA-style game is going to have similar heroes, there's absolutely no way to get around that. It also greatly helps people jumping from one game to another. I started playing LoL once or twice a week with friends who play and having the ability to explain heroes in that game and relate them to heroes in DOTA helped immensely
    "I'm glad you play better than you read/post on forums." -Ninety
    BF3 Profile | Steam Profile | Assemble a Computer in 9.75 Steps! | Video Rendering Done Right

  16. #3436
    Legendary! Tommo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    6,608
    Quote Originally Posted by llDemonll View Post
    Well, any MOBA-style game is going to have similar heroes, there's absolutely no way to get around that. It also greatly helps people jumping from one game to another. I started playing LoL once or twice a week with friends who play and having the ability to explain heroes in that game and relate them to heroes in DOTA helped immensely
    Im leaning towards people like infinitevox claiming he invented teemo + rammus, if stuff like that is true I cant imagine how PenDragon would ever get another job in the dota industry.

  17. #3437
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzz View Post
    why don't you go pro?
    The game is already fairly boring, when you stop playing for fun how much worse do you think it's going to get? I played "seriously" in CAL once, as I've said before, and I quit after about six games because it just is not fun. Maybe if esports were even relatively where they need to be to make a living doing it I would consider it, but to dedicate my life to something that I won't even have fun doing and make a few hundred bucks a month, no thanks. I'd have a better career at Wendy's.

    Though I'm still not sure why your post is directed at me.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  18. #3438
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyzz View Post
    It's just a shame that 50% of this thread's posts are either "OMG XYZ IS SO OP, NERF THIS AND NERF THAT", "ICEFROG IS A MORON", etc etc.
    .
    and %100 of those posts belong to Pizza. He needs a rest and enjoy the game.

  19. #3439
    when I'm watching Na'vi games I dont see them permastunning enemy team.
    Guess its either their goldike skill, or Pizza is just blowing it out his.. head

  20. #3440
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Though I'm still not sure why your post is directed at me.
    .


    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    The game is already fairly boring
    .

    This is why the post was directed at you. If the game is already boring, why are you still playing it and/or posting messages here about it and how much you dislike it. I wasn't a big fan of LoL, so i stopped playing it. It would be ludicrous for me to continue to play a game I didn't enjoy, and then go on the LoL message boards and tell them why I don't like the game. (Not comparing LoL to dota, just an example). There are SO MANY games out there, why would you waste your time (and ours on these forums) playing one you don't like? Maybe a different MOBA is what you need, or maybe a game where everyone is identical and you can base it on pure skill instead of complaining so and so picked Centaur, gg.

    It's like when I play WoW (mocking is expected). There are so many people who will complain in trade chat about how terrible WoW is, yet theyre still spending $15 a month on it and spending time on it. Easiest option is to move on imo.

    Also, my question about why you aren't going pro was mostly rhetorical. It's easy to armchair quarterback something and say how easy it is, and all you need to do is X, Y, and Z. But actually doing it is likely much harder.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •