[Megathread] DotA 2

[Lysah]

I shouldn't have to tell you that the game is longer than 8 minutes and TA getting 50 cs mid isn't an automatic victory for her entire team. I left that part out because it was a given.

Gyro wins mid against almost any hero because the range on flak cannon is long enough that you can't really avoid it. You also can't do a damn thing about missile spam when he gets a bottle, though this doesn't really pertain to TA specifically. I'm surprised you're so new at this, none of this information should be all that surprising to you. I get the feeling that I'm talking to someone who hasn't seen more than a dozen heroes go mid in his life, so, I don't really have the time to type you a book about DotA strategy.

Realize this, every single hero in the game can successfully mid. It isn't a special lane. TA mid is no different from TA bot, what changes is who YOU send mid to counter her. The heroes people pick for mid are sent there because the heroes the enemy will send to counter them will likely be in other lanes, it is as simple as that.

I haven't even begun getting into a 1v2 lane if you wanted to actually shut TA down. I've been discussing the option of equalizing her farm and pushing her out of lane during the transition window to mid game.


As far as MMR goes, if you're not getting page 1 games you're below average. We had a talk about what average means, and while I ordinarily support average being "the average skill with all players taken into account," right now we're discussing strategy. The difference between the people I play with and even "good" players is extreme. The people you look up to when you watch streams are the people I play with on a regular basis. I'm not trying to talk down to anyone here, I'm simply trying to impress that you cannot learn anything when your attitude is "copy puppey Lysah must be some no skill pub rando lololol." You have to realize how much you don't know before you can start to learn any of it.

If TA always wins mid in your DotA matches then by all means pick her every time and get a 100% win rate. I'm talking about theory, not what will always play out in every game in the world. It really is no different from what puppey said - his discussion was the same as ours is now - theory.

[PizzaSHARK]

QoP doesn't counter her for shit. People think "damage of time" = counter but you can't actually even hit the Shadow Strike due to Meld. Stop thinking so basic. How does Veno win a TA? TA will get all last hits, regardless if you strip her off her Refraction or not. Viper is a useless hero so it doesn't get picked anyway unless you want a useless hero in your team. Gratz with Zeus. How you gonna stop TA from getting last hits and experience?

Veno wins by simply forcing TA to back off. Poison Sting does a ton of damage for very little cost and Gale can be stacked on top of that to increase the damage taken - because TA is so reliant on Refraction for blocking damage to compensate for awful health, Veno can win simply by forcing her to back off. He could also just max wards and control the lane using them. Veno can solo kill TA with nova+gale once refraction is down.

Viper wins by default due to his high damage with Nethertoxin (very easy last hit/deny) and the fact that he's a flying counter to defensive Refraction - his orb, his defensive passive, his ultimate all bleed charges. Like Veno, he'd win simply by harassing TA away from the creeps with his orb. Once he hits 6, TA has to hug the tower or Viper WILL kill her without even having to try. Also, Viper is far from a weak hero. He's seen as weak because people are stupid and pretend he's a hard-carry when he fucking isn't. He's an anti-carry, like Razor. 80% attack speed and move speed slow with ~50% uptime that ignores BKB? Yeah, watch your team's carry do absolutely fucking nothing if Viper is around, and watch Viper just laugh at your attempts to kill him when he's built properly.

Zeus? Probably the same thing as Veno and Viper, through different means. Arc Lightning strips off Refraction, then zap her with Lightning Bolt and repeat until she has to go hide. Not certain, but Zeus' passive is also classified as magical damage, which means it should strip off Refraction charges - so each Arc Lightning cast should be stripping two charges per cast, if I'm understanding that right. But again, that's speculation. What isn't speculation is that once he hits level 5, Zeus will easily force TA away from the creep line due to continuous, heavy burst damage.

edit: I couldn't resist. Do you still think Furion is OP?

Yup. There are ways to deal with him but it doesn't make him any less of a fundamentally broken hero. Unless you can afford to sit on him and prevent him from getting any items (which, if his team lets that happen, his team is garbage to begin with), he's overpowered because he's so good at doing so many different things.

TA was OP before the bugfixes came in. Meld was doing way more damage than it was supposed to, it was why she was able to instagib people with no items at like level 7. Once they fixed Meld's damage calculation, she was and still is fine.

ps: Dazzle can't beat lanaya. Not in here or in any other parallel universe.

Dazzle can't be harassed away from the creep lines, Poison Touch will strip off Refraction charges and functions as a stun (and once he gets Medallion, also does a surprising amount of damage for very little cost), and Dazzle has very high base damage combined with very high damage-stat gains and a great attack animation. Dazzle's ultimate also counters TA's Meld, not just for the 1v1 but also for all engagements.

And why would a TA care about stopping SK mid. The team SK is in is already sacrificing the #2 postiion to a SK. That is enough. TA will come out on on top in mid against SK due to superior last hitting and SK can't do shit about it. You just said yourself now in your latest post that SK can't stop TA. A TA with farm is far more useful than SK with farm or experience.

Not really. Have you even seen what a SK with quick dagger and stats can do? You're guaranteed to win every single team fight that Epicenter is available during because they won't have the items to deal with it if you get it that quickly. Push towers - they either have to back off and let the tower fall, or they die defending the tower and you take the tower anyway.

How the hell does Axe counter TA? She just hits a damn creep and your hunger is off. TA counters Axe. Axe with zero armor = useless. Her traps stops you from moving anywhere so what are you gonna do in fights. You usally don't build Dagger on Axe anymore. You go Tranquil/Phase and being so reliant on movement speed, TA will counter.

Axe can't really be harassed. Punching him just gives him more farm, and unless you're far away, there's a good chance he's gonna hit you with it, too. Battle Hunger could be skipped in favor of earlier taunt and maxed spin. I don't see him winning CS versus TA, though.

Gyro how?! You HAVE NO BASE DAMAGE to deny TA gold or experience. I don't understand how you cannot get that. What does a Gyrocopter have that makes him counter TA? His first skill? Grats, you just got rid of Refraction, now what?

Gyro could very, very easily kill TA with proper timing. Missile can be cast from far away and forces TA to back off (there's no way she'll be able to kill it before it hits her with her pathetic range) and if she gets caught in the stun away from friendly creeps, Gyro will shred her refraction and turn her into red mist.

That you say Dust counters her is just silly. Her power mid doesn't come from Meld. Meld is just used for damage anyways. You don't sit in Meld very often. Her strength mid comes from having the highest damage in the game at early levels to last hit with and her being immune to any nuke spells and at the same time harass you.

Dust counters her because Meld is her only defensive skill - as mentioned several times, Refraction is not difficult to deal with if you have the right hero present. Without Refraction, TA is very squishy, and before she gets her Desolator, her damage isn't even that fantastic - at least, not the kind of "meld, hit, hit, dead," burst she's known for. It takes a LOT of farm to get the blink+desolator combo that TA requires to become so strong, and before she has those items, she's actually very squishy.

And I was referring to Puppey and syndereN on TalkDota where a person asks how to deal with TA mid. Both of them tried to think of ANY hero to counter her mid. Not only the ones in the current meta. Even Axe was brought up and Puppey said TA counters Axe. You say Axe counters TA. Damn. Guess I should listen to you. I find it funny that you discredit anything anyone says if they mention a professional name. I don't know waht bracket you play in but on my MMR (Very High), the hero pool isn't 100. People most often pick heroes that are used in current pro scene meta and the only way heroes like Sniper, Dazzle and such would be in my games would be because of Random.

People pick what the pros pick because they're retarded and don't think for themselves. Dazzle is a very, very strong hero - invulnerability with 33% uptime and a greater than one-screen cast range combined with probably the most underrated ultimate in the game, and fantastic stats. Sniper is probably the most ridiculous ranged carry in the game, but isn't seen because he doesn't have an inherent escape mechanism - but watch what happens when Sniper has the attack speed to turn Headshot into ranged permastun and Assassinate means you can't get anywhere remotely near him with less than 75% HP.

Just because the pros do or don't do something doesn't mean it's holy writ. The pro scene trends for reasons I've never been able to understand - TA herself trended this way. She was used extensively right after she got ported, then she wasn't picked at all, and now she's popular again - and the only changes that have happened to her were some assorted bug fixes. Hell, her primary counter-pick hero got buffed to hell and she's still picked a lot. It doesn't make sense, but that's the pro scene for you. It happened all the time in SC2, too - players would pick up or abandon build orders without any kind of changes to the game, even though the old build orders never stopped being good.

You're hugely overestimating how good TA is because you aren't thinking. She really isn't as good as you think she is - until she gets both blink and desolator, she's actually kinda bad. Pros are just using her a lot because for whatever reason, pro teams seem to like letting her get those items at 20 minutes.

[Lysah]

Well, like I said originally, TA was a joke pick in DotA1. She hasn't changed whatsoever. Just goes to show how people's attitudes change over time. AM was a joke pick, morph was a joke pick, all of these are current favorites. PA was a strong pick and is now considered a joke and she's been buffed repeatedly since then.

Sniper with his new buffs probably is the most ridiculous ranged carry in the game right now. He doesn't even need items, 800 range with even the tiniest bit of attack speed and he can headshot spam anything to death. You really can't understimate that ult, it hits for half of any ordinary heroes' health at all points in the game if Sniper stays leveled.

But that's not the best part, the best part is that one point in shrapnel counters refraction immediately. Though the headshot is still hilarious, I've 1v1ed wolf as sniper at 60 minutes when both of us were fed and it wasn't even close.

Also, Dazzle doesn't just counter TA by being able to walk away from her with shallow grave if she even gets the upper hand. She moves in to last hit that creep and he hits shadow wave, instantly takes away a full refraction and she won't even get the last hit because the creep got healed. Then if she doesn't run he can just poison touch and auto attack her to death. She's forced to Meld and waste all of her mana or just tank his harass forever. And that's the stress she goes through for ONE creep, let alone every single creep of every single wave. Let's not forget Dazzle's spells don't have cooldowns. Solo Dazzle can actually beat a huge range of heroes, he's a lot stronger than people give him credit for. Again, a hero who is ruined by the "GOTTA HARD SUPPORT BRO" mentality.

Lion is probably the easiest counter though. Impale/drain takes zero skill against an early game melee range hero like TA. By level 4 she won't have any mana and without mana she's about as strong as oom CM. I actually lost mid as SF to a Lion once and gained a brand new respect for the impale spam. Go in to last hit? Impaled/denied. Go in to harass Lion? Impaled/goodbye mana. Luckily SF just needs level 5 and he can clear entire waves with skillraze, but hey, TA can't do that.

[Deleted]

It doesn't matter if a game is longer than 8 minutes. TA's strength comes from getting a strong start due to winning her lane or break even at worst and from there how the rest of the game pans out depends on your team and how you act on other lanes. We were dicussing her strength mid and hwo you counter her. Anything past 8-10 minutes and she is already off the lane quite a lot most of the times.

You have to realize every time you cast Flak Cannon you push the lane (which is bad by the way) and Flak does almost no damage if you are with a creep wave and do you plan to chase TA to tower to hit her solo? And have fun trading hits with her when she has +40 damage at level 3 and Meld at level 4. Even if you get rid of Refraction with Flak you still can't hit her and no, you won't be able to hit Flak from far range on only TA without creep wave. You have to get closer, within TA's range to do that because she'll run uphill or to creep wave the moment you press that Flak. About missle, you just run up to the missle and refraction it. Or you run away from it. And yes, a good TA won't get caught without creep wave near him when he tanks the missle. Missle is annoying spell at best but doesn't pose any threat to a TA.

I am getting page 1 games. Don't assume that you have higher MMR than everyone else. I don't even play Dota 2 that much at the moment but I was queuing into H4nni and Alex- this week. And that is with most of my games being solo queues and many pros don't solo queue so facing them is less likely for me.

@Dazzle comment: Yeah, Dazzle has infinite mana to spam both the heal and the touch and still have Shallow Grave for when he is in trouble. The heal barely does damage. Dazzle's auto attacks does zero damage. And again, you push the lane every time you use the heal so you make it even easier to get those last hits you denied with heal in the first place.

@PizzaSHARK Anything you say has no credibility because you shown over and over again how you lack understanding of the game. TA not good before Desolator/Dagger? If she wasn't, how would she even farm those items against any strong mid hero?

[Kuntantee]

Dazzle can't be harassed away from the creep lines, Poison Touch will strip off Refraction charges and functions as a stun (and once he gets Medallion, also does a surprising amount of damage for very little cost), and Dazzle has very high base damage combined with very high damage-stat gains and a great attack animation. Dazzle's ultimate also counters TA's Meld, not just for the 1v1 but also for all engagements.

Beating TA in middle means giving her no farm. Dazzle can't do that. I really doubt TA in middle would think anything but her farm, trying to dominate Dazzle for example, it's not necessary. Lanaya is mostly harass proof after few levels and dazzle can't harass hard for first few levels. Lanaya's projectiles will reach target earlier with higher damage and let her deny or get CS. Go play dazzle against lanaya and notice you can't do a shit to her farm and come back here without some pseudo theory. To me, saying TA is a garbage hero just shows a clear lack of understanding about the game. Claiming TA is useless or bad hero just because the way you understand how that hero would work in some pseudo-theory which there is no way in earth you can prove is just plain stupid at the same time funny. I'm laughing my ass of. There are practical examples like pro scene and pubs that if you can manage to get some early farm on TA she scales(in terms of efficiency not stats) much much better than other heroes with key items. I didn't even mention her ultimate.

[Hermanni]

I'm enjoying this particular argument because pizza is actually defending Veno against TA mid, something he wouldn't initially buy from me.

I have to mention the whole SK vs TA thing boils down to basically one thing. Neither is a clear winner, but according to Lysah SK wins because a skilled player would dodge every instance of Psi Blades? You know it feels like a bit one sided to me that skill only works one way, that it's possible for a skilled SK to dodge everything but it's not possible for skilled TA to hit enough of them against a skilled SK?

And although Dazzle is alright, the one problem in the arguments here is that even with Rank 1 Psi Blades, Lanaya doesn't need to go close enough to creeps to get hit by Shadow Wave.

[cudomix]

The way i see it, only reason TA is so strong atm because no one gets HP anymore, outside of her burst (which is really strong, but possible to manage) she's not that great (once refraction is down, she is as durable as wet paper bag), Huskar should beat her easily, spears counter refraction, he gets str items because of inner vitality, and if she tries to gank him after laning phase she'll just give him free relic and hyperstone, people have no idea how dangerous wounded huskar is. You want to counter her? Get some HP.

[Lysah]

You know it feels like a bit one sided to me that skill only works one way, that it's possible for a skilled SK to dodge everything but it's not possible for skilled TA to hit enough of them against a skilled SK?

Correct! And think about why I can make this assertion. TA will come in to last hit, this is predictable and SK can watch her movement and will know the exact line psi blades will make every time she tries to CS. Either she spam auto attacks the creeps just to throw him off and pushes the lane, in which case he can just sit back regardless, or she takes her time last hitting in which case she is extremely predictable.

@Ariadne
I'm not sure if you're mixing up flak cannon and rocket barrage because Gyro can easily just attack a creep with flak cannon and hit a hero 300 units behind it without even aiming. Point for point flak cannon beats refraction, again, a hero who can FORCE her to use it just to stay in lane will bleed her dry. You seem to be stuck on this notion that if she absorbs a few hits with refraction that's an automatic win for her. What you forget is that heroes like SK and Gyro don't even have to pay attention to her, just by existing they abuse her and force her to adapt to them instead of the other way around.

The main point of this discussion is that TA getting farm is not a won game. In a team fight she is about as pathetic as it gets, once she blinks in you pop dust and focus her and she will be sinking into the ground momentarily. Beating her is not about stopping her from farming - items don't make her scary. Beating her is about not losing mid, keep in mind this is not the same concept as winning mid. Beating her is about pushing her into a defensive position so you can predict her ganks and counter them. Without an early game lead she is on the same level as, say, Slark.

At the end of the day, most people will realize what people realized in DotA1 - TA is a joke hero if you stop thinking she's amazing and stop trying to run away from her.

[Morally Grey Storm]

skillful TA will beat skillful SK/Veno/whatever simply by virtue of the fact that a skillful player in a high-class game wont pick TA

[PizzaSHARK]

@Dazzle comment: Yeah, Dazzle has infinite mana to spam both the heal and the touch and still have Shallow Grave for when he is in trouble. The heal barely does damage. Dazzle's auto attacks does zero damage. And again, you push the lane every time you use the heal so you make it even easier to get those last hits you denied with heal in the first place.

Dazzle typically maxes grave and touch before heal when he's soloing a lane so the heal won't push very hard - it'll heal the targeted creep and maybe a couple more for a small amount of health. It probably won't push the lane very hard when you're considering TA splashing some damage from Psi Blades.

Dazzle basically does have infinite mana because he has excellent INT and his spells have pretty low costs. His autoattack is hardly negligible, it starts at a pretty good level and continues to grow well due to his high INT growth. Once he finishes Medallion, Dazzle can hit quite hard with auto+touch, and will have sufficient regen (again, due to his high INT growth) to do it frequently.

Weave will also completely shut down TA's burst as well as make her more vulnerable. Oh, you pierce 8 armor with Meld? np, I'll just give my entire team +15 (on average) armor.

@PizzaSHARK Anything you say has no credibility because you shown over and over again how you lack understanding of the game. TA not good before Desolator/Dagger? If she wasn't, how would she even farm those items against any strong mid hero?

You're getting so hung up on farming. Who the fuck cares? As long as you don't lose your lane against TA, you're perfectly fine. She can't carry. And before those items, she's not even that strong of a ganker - sure as hell she isn't as good as QoP, Nightstalker, or many others. I mean, yeah, she could probably wander over and blow up a hard support, but that's another example of pros not really experimenting much - if that support gets a couple of cheap items (like maybe bracer+chainmail), TA can't turn him into giblets with two hits anymore.

TA doesn't reach that "oh wow she just gibbed our fed hero in three hits," level until she gets both her blink (needed to actually catch people out, as well as get out of tight situations) and desolator (needed to give her the damage amp she requires to reach that kind of burst.) That's 6300 gold, on top of the bottle, the boots, and anything else she might need. It's not like it's game over because TA has 60 CS at 10 minutes, and you have to keep in mind that her ability to show up and blow up people - which is the reason most people think she's so good - isn't really there until she has those items. And, assuming you haven't been losing your lanes (don't necessarily have to win them, just can't lose them), by time she has those items your team should have some items of your own.

And as Lysah's been saying, there are several heroes you can pick that will counter the shit out of TA in mid. Counter her as in "get the fuck away from the creeps or I'll kill you."

I'm enjoying this particular argument because pizza is actually defending Veno against TA mid, something he wouldn't initially buy from me.

Obviously, I was wrong in this case.

[Kuntantee]

All this virtual or theoretical discussion is pathetic. TA is blinking, enemy team dusting and focusing on her, she is dead? What's the allies of TA doing? Circle Jerking in base? You are concluding a team fight with death of TA and presumably her team is wiping because well she's garbage hero right? What is the time on game? Early, mid, late? We don't even know the other 9 heros, who opened first and tons of other factor. This is just pathetic. On the other hand, who said TA is gonna carry the fuck out of the game or moderately farmed TA = gg? You are jumping from one subject to the other desperately just for the sake of generating argument that is not even related with the whole discussion in the first place. I hope you don't call this mess discussion.

DotA2 thread is witnessing its most brain dead discussions with totally biased or silly arguments.

[PizzaSHARK]

All this virtual or theoretical discussion is pathetic. TA is blinking, enemy team dusting and focusing on her, she is dead? What's the allies of TA doing? Circle Jerking in base? You are concluding a team fight with death of TA and presumably her team is wiping because well she's garbage hero right? What is the time on game? Early, mid, late? We don't even know the other 9 heros, who opened first and tons of other factor. This is just pathetic. On the other hand, who said TA is gonna carry the fuck out of the game or moderately farmed TA = gg? You are jumping from one subject to the other desperately just for the sake of generating argument that is not even related with the whole discussion in the first place. I hope you don't call this mess discussion.

DotA2 thread is witnessing its most brain dead discussions with totally biased or silly arguments.

If all you're gonna do is rage and whine and cry, then don't post.

[Lysah]

When PizzaSHARK tells you to stop raging it might be time to leave.

[Hermanni]

Correct! And think about why I can make this assertion. TA will come in to last hit, this is predictable and SK can watch her movement and will know the exact line psi blades will make every time she tries to CS. Either she spam auto attacks the creeps just to throw him off and pushes the lane, in which case he can just sit back regardless, or she takes her time last hitting in which case she is extremely predictable.

Indeed, but doesn't it quite work the other way too, as in TA can wait for SK to try and lasthit, and Psi Blading a lasthitting melee hero isn't even difficult. But like I said, it doesn't really seem like either hero has tremendous advantage there.

[Lysah]

Indeed, but doesn't it quite work the other way too, as in TA can wait for SK to try and lasthit, and Psi Blading a lasthitting melee hero isn't even difficult. But like I said, it doesn't really seem like either hero has tremendous advantage there.

I doubt either hero would come out ahead, but as TA's mid game strength relies on creating a gap between her and her enemies keeping even with her is effectively stomping her. She's about as strong as BH is early-mid game if she doesn't go 8-0 from early game, but BH can make up for lost time with trackGOLD, she doesn't have that to fall back on. In this sense, blink and nothing else TA mid game is about as useful as blink and nothing else BH. Blink in, drop a big spike on one hero, die, about what you'd expect. Hilariously, track and psi traps accomplish about the same role as well, but people don't consider BH an unstoppable force of prostomping annihilation.

[Kuntantee]

If all you're gonna do is rage and whine and cry, then don't post.

Anyone with half brain wouldn't call that post rage, whine or cry. I'm guessing you are out of arguments(not saying you are half brained ). Well your arguments makes no sense anyway. You are proven to be wrong many times. You were crying(that is what we call crying on internet) so hard about how OP <insert a hero which pizza raped hard> and then turn 180 degrees and tell us how okay that particular hero.

@Lysah
Thnx for suggestion but if I leave who's going to punch your bullshits of yours right in your face ywhen you are out of arguments

My MMR is higher than yours
I'm dota god wıth 9999 years of xp
Don't mimic pro scene
I play with pros on a daily basis

It's not a coincident you strew these bullshits between your arguments here and there in forum. You mention these shits in every dscussion you engage. You know why? You need attention and admiration. I feel sorry for you.

[Deleted]

TA getting farm mid is a TA that wins mid. End of story. Gryo won't stop her from getting last hits ever.

Yeah, TA will Blink into enemy and die because of dust... Because a TA uses Meld defensively when she blinks in. Most stupid thing I've heard in a while. I'm out.

[Deleted]

Anyone with half brain wouldn't call that post rage, whine or cry. I'm guessing you are out of arguments. Well your arguments makes no sense anyway. You are proven to be wrong many times. You were crying(that is what we call crying on internet) so hard about how OP <insert a hero which pizza raped hard> and then turn 180 degrees and tell us how okay that particular hero.

@Lysah
Thnx for suggestion but if I leave who's going to punch your bullshits of yours when you out of arguments

My MMR is higher than yours
I'm dota god wıth 9999 years of xp
Don't mimic pro scene

It's not a coincident you stew these bullshits here and there in forum. You mention these shits in every dscussion you engage. You know why? You need attention and admiration. I feel sorry for you.

Really now Kunt, you don't have to satirize shitposters in this thread, it's okay to post like a normal person would.

[Deleted]

The debate among men who have reached the summit of Dota, people whose skill shapes the core of the community........
So what kind of event do you expect for the winter?

[Deleted]

The debate among men who have reached the summit of Dota, people whose skill shapes the core of the community........
So what kind of event do you expect for the winter?

Snowball fights. Nothing else will do.