1. #3541
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    @Dazzle comment: Yeah, Dazzle has infinite mana to spam both the heal and the touch and still have Shallow Grave for when he is in trouble. The heal barely does damage. Dazzle's auto attacks does zero damage. And again, you push the lane every time you use the heal so you make it even easier to get those last hits you denied with heal in the first place.
    Dazzle typically maxes grave and touch before heal when he's soloing a lane so the heal won't push very hard - it'll heal the targeted creep and maybe a couple more for a small amount of health. It probably won't push the lane very hard when you're considering TA splashing some damage from Psi Blades.

    Dazzle basically does have infinite mana because he has excellent INT and his spells have pretty low costs. His autoattack is hardly negligible, it starts at a pretty good level and continues to grow well due to his high INT growth. Once he finishes Medallion, Dazzle can hit quite hard with auto+touch, and will have sufficient regen (again, due to his high INT growth) to do it frequently.

    Weave will also completely shut down TA's burst as well as make her more vulnerable. Oh, you pierce 8 armor with Meld? np, I'll just give my entire team +15 (on average) armor.

    @PizzaSHARK Anything you say has no credibility because you shown over and over again how you lack understanding of the game. TA not good before Desolator/Dagger? If she wasn't, how would she even farm those items against any strong mid hero?
    You're getting so hung up on farming. Who the fuck cares? As long as you don't lose your lane against TA, you're perfectly fine. She can't carry. And before those items, she's not even that strong of a ganker - sure as hell she isn't as good as QoP, Nightstalker, or many others. I mean, yeah, she could probably wander over and blow up a hard support, but that's another example of pros not really experimenting much - if that support gets a couple of cheap items (like maybe bracer+chainmail), TA can't turn him into giblets with two hits anymore.

    TA doesn't reach that "oh wow she just gibbed our fed hero in three hits," level until she gets both her blink (needed to actually catch people out, as well as get out of tight situations) and desolator (needed to give her the damage amp she requires to reach that kind of burst.) That's 6300 gold, on top of the bottle, the boots, and anything else she might need. It's not like it's game over because TA has 60 CS at 10 minutes, and you have to keep in mind that her ability to show up and blow up people - which is the reason most people think she's so good - isn't really there until she has those items. And, assuming you haven't been losing your lanes (don't necessarily have to win them, just can't lose them), by time she has those items your team should have some items of your own.

    And as Lysah's been saying, there are several heroes you can pick that will counter the shit out of TA in mid. Counter her as in "get the fuck away from the creeps or I'll kill you."

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    I'm enjoying this particular argument because pizza is actually defending Veno against TA mid, something he wouldn't initially buy from me.
    Obviously, I was wrong in this case.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
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  2. #3542
    All this virtual or theoretical discussion is pathetic. TA is blinking, enemy team dusting and focusing on her, she is dead? What's the allies of TA doing? Circle Jerking in base? You are concluding a team fight with death of TA and presumably her team is wiping because well she's garbage hero right? What is the time on game? Early, mid, late? We don't even know the other 9 heros, who opened first and tons of other factor. This is just pathetic. On the other hand, who said TA is gonna carry the fuck out of the game or moderately farmed TA = gg? You are jumping from one subject to the other desperately just for the sake of generating argument that is not even related with the whole discussion in the first place. I hope you don't call this mess discussion.

    DotA2 thread is witnessing its most brain dead discussions with totally biased or silly arguments.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-11-19 at 12:24 PM.

  3. #3543
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    All this virtual or theoretical discussion is pathetic. TA is blinking, enemy team dusting and focusing on her, she is dead? What's the allies of TA doing? Circle Jerking in base? You are concluding a team fight with death of TA and presumably her team is wiping because well she's garbage hero right? What is the time on game? Early, mid, late? We don't even know the other 9 heros, who opened first and tons of other factor. This is just pathetic. On the other hand, who said TA is gonna carry the fuck out of the game or moderately farmed TA = gg? You are jumping from one subject to the other desperately just for the sake of generating argument that is not even related with the whole discussion in the first place. I hope you don't call this mess discussion.

    DotA2 thread is witnessing its most brain dead discussions with totally biased or silly arguments.
    If all you're gonna do is rage and whine and cry, then don't post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
    MMOC IRC!

  4. #3544
    When PizzaSHARK tells you to stop raging it might be time to leave.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
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  5. #3545
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Correct! And think about why I can make this assertion. TA will come in to last hit, this is predictable and SK can watch her movement and will know the exact line psi blades will make every time she tries to CS. Either she spam auto attacks the creeps just to throw him off and pushes the lane, in which case he can just sit back regardless, or she takes her time last hitting in which case she is extremely predictable.
    Indeed, but doesn't it quite work the other way too, as in TA can wait for SK to try and lasthit, and Psi Blading a lasthitting melee hero isn't even difficult. But like I said, it doesn't really seem like either hero has tremendous advantage there.



    Manni | paragon.fi | Dota 2 forum | The golden rule: Listen to Lysah.

  6. #3546
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Indeed, but doesn't it quite work the other way too, as in TA can wait for SK to try and lasthit, and Psi Blading a lasthitting melee hero isn't even difficult. But like I said, it doesn't really seem like either hero has tremendous advantage there.
    I doubt either hero would come out ahead, but as TA's mid game strength relies on creating a gap between her and her enemies keeping even with her is effectively stomping her. She's about as strong as BH is early-mid game if she doesn't go 8-0 from early game, but BH can make up for lost time with trackGOLD, she doesn't have that to fall back on. In this sense, blink and nothing else TA mid game is about as useful as blink and nothing else BH. Blink in, drop a big spike on one hero, die, about what you'd expect. Hilariously, track and psi traps accomplish about the same role as well, but people don't consider BH an unstoppable force of prostomping annihilation.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
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  7. #3547
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    If all you're gonna do is rage and whine and cry, then don't post.
    Anyone with half brain wouldn't call that post rage, whine or cry. I'm guessing you are out of arguments(not saying you are half brained ). Well your arguments makes no sense anyway. You are proven to be wrong many times. You were crying(that is what we call crying on internet) so hard about how OP <insert a hero which pizza raped hard> and then turn 180 degrees and tell us how okay that particular hero.

    @Lysah
    Thnx for suggestion but if I leave who's going to punch your bullshits of yours right in your face ywhen you are out of arguments

    My MMR is higher than yours
    I'm dota god wıth 9999 years of xp
    Don't mimic pro scene
    I play with pros on a daily basis

    It's not a coincident you strew these bullshits between your arguments here and there in forum. You mention these shits in every dscussion you engage. You know why? You need attention and admiration. I feel sorry for you.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-11-19 at 01:11 PM.

  8. #3548
    TA getting farm mid is a TA that wins mid. End of story. Gryo won't stop her from getting last hits ever.

    Yeah, TA will Blink into enemy and die because of dust... Because a TA uses Meld defensively when she blinks in. Most stupid thing I've heard in a while. I'm out.
    Last edited by Ariadne; 2012-11-19 at 01:07 PM.

  9. #3549
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Anyone with half brain wouldn't call that post rage, whine or cry. I'm guessing you are out of arguments. Well your arguments makes no sense anyway. You are proven to be wrong many times. You were crying(that is what we call crying on internet) so hard about how OP <insert a hero which pizza raped hard> and then turn 180 degrees and tell us how okay that particular hero.

    @Lysah
    Thnx for suggestion but if I leave who's going to punch your bullshits of yours when you out of arguments

    My MMR is higher than yours
    I'm dota god wıth 9999 years of xp
    Don't mimic pro scene

    It's not a coincident you stew these bullshits here and there in forum. You mention these shits in every dscussion you engage. You know why? You need attention and admiration. I feel sorry for you.
    Really now Kunt, you don't have to satirize shitposters in this thread, it's okay to post like a normal person would.

  10. #3550
    The debate among men who have reached the summit of Dota, people whose skill shapes the core of the community........
    So what kind of event do you expect for the winter?

  11. #3551
    Quote Originally Posted by Daraiki View Post
    The debate among men who have reached the summit of Dota, people whose skill shapes the core of the community........
    So what kind of event do you expect for the winter?
    Snowball fights. Nothing else will do.

  12. #3552
    Your incessant whining is going to get this thread be closed, no matter how candidly it represents the Dota2 community at large.

    Anyone have any idea what hero's are coming next, or what time frame they have been looking at for releasing hero's?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lugo Moll View Post
    Consider this philosophical question: If Blizz fails, but noone is there to see it. Will there still be QQ?

  13. #3553
    Quote Originally Posted by Sackman View Post
    Your incessant whining is going to get this thread be closed, no matter how candidly it represents the Dota2 community at large.

    Anyone have any idea what hero's are coming next, or what time frame they have been looking at for releasing hero's?
    Medusa or a surprise, with the amount of mass invites going out I expect heroes to be coming out quickly from here. They've proven they're capable of a hero a week.

    @Ariadne
    It's for the best since we seem unable to look at simple concepts in the first place.

    @Kuntantee
    If all you're gonna do is rage and whine and cry, then don't post.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-19 at 02:22 PM.
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  14. #3554
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Medusa or a surprise, with the amount of mass invites going out I expect heroes to be coming out quickly from here. They've proven they're capable of a hero a week.
    I wouldn't be so certain, previously they've had from half a dozen to dozen heroes as WIP in game files, right now I think it's just Dusa, Shredder and Jah'rakal according to Cyborgmatt. And according to devs it takes at least a month to work a hero from start to finish, so I'm inclined to doubt they will hit hero/week rate any time soon. I'd imagine they're focusing more heavily on other things like those tutorials or Unix support.

    That being said, I will still explode if I don't get my hands on Gorgon this week.



    Manni | paragon.fi | Dota 2 forum | The golden rule: Listen to Lysah.

  15. #3555
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    TA getting farm mid is a TA that wins mid. End of story. Gryo won't stop her from getting last hits ever.

    Yeah, TA will Blink into enemy and die because of dust... Because a TA uses Meld defensively when she blinks in. Most stupid thing I've heard in a while. I'm out.
    Meld is the only thing that's stopping her from getting gibbed against a team that knows how to deal with defensive Refraction charges.

    Look at it from the reverse - you're saying none of these heroes stop TA from getting last hits (that's a flat-out lie, but we'll go with it.) What's TA doing to stop the enemy mid hero from getting last hits? If both heroes get plenty of last hits because apparently neither of them can prevent the other from getting them, how is TA automatically winning her lane?

    How is a TA with 60 CS at 10 minutes more dangerous than a Sand King with 60 CS at 10 minutes, or a Viper, or a Gyro, or a Huskar, or a fucking Batrider?

    60 CS at 10 minutes. That means 3000 gold gained including the 1 g/sec inherent gold gain. That's Arcane Boots and 3 creep kills shy of Blink Dagger for Sand King. At 10 minutes!

    Huskar has his Helm of the Dominator or Armlet and most of his treads (or more likely, treads and then a few hundred away from either other item.)

    Bat has his Blink Dagger and Bottle.

    Viper has... whatever the hell he wants, really. I'm a big fan of Armlet+Hood on him, but I'm sure you'll laugh at that.

    The point is that even if they just break even with TA on CS (which is very possible for all of those heroes), they're a fuck of a lot more dangerous at that 10 minute/3000 gold mark than TA is. I don't know if that means they won their lane, but it definitely means they didn't lose it.



    ---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 11:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    I wouldn't be so certain, previously they've had from half a dozen to dozen heroes as WIP in game files, right now I think it's just Dusa, Shredder and Jah'rakal according to Cyborgmatt. And according to devs it takes at least a month to work a hero from start to finish, so I'm inclined to doubt they will hit hero/week rate any time soon. I'd imagine they're focusing more heavily on other things like those tutorials or Unix support.

    That being said, I will still explode if I don't get my hands on Gorgon this week.
    What makes you like Medusa so much?
    Last edited by PizzaSHARK; 2012-11-19 at 06:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
    MMOC IRC!

  16. #3556
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    I wouldn't be so certain, previously they've had from half a dozen to dozen heroes as WIP in game files, right now I think it's just Dusa, Shredder and Jah'rakal according to Cyborgmatt. And according to devs it takes at least a month to work a hero from start to finish, so I'm inclined to doubt they will hit hero/week rate any time soon. I'd imagine they're focusing more heavily on other things like those tutorials or Unix support.

    That being said, I will still explode if I don't get my hands on Gorgon this week.
    They surprised us before with heroes they hadn't released much data for, so, I'm hoping for the best. If it does take them this long then we still have a very big wait ahead of us.
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  17. #3557
    I am Murloc! Grading's Avatar
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    Man, there sure have been a lot of people acting big in this thread. Sounds mostly like people managed to feed TA and lost, then got mad.

    Recently lost a PvP game (I'm pretty new so bear with me on this) to a fed Riki, he would just ambush someone, throw up his smokething and death. I got pretty mad, but then I remembered that he's only that good if you feed him. At least I can imagine a non-fed Riki being pretty useless.

    Also Sniper is an asshole. He wouldn't be nearly as bad if he didn't have that insane proc rate on Headshot with his insane range.

  18. #3558
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftero View Post
    Man, there sure have been a lot of people acting big in this thread. Sounds mostly like people managed to feed TA and lost, then got mad.

    Recently lost a PvP game (I'm pretty new so bear with me on this) to a fed Riki, he would just ambush someone, throw up his smokething and death. I got pretty mad, but then I remembered that he's only that good if you feed him. At least I can imagine a non-fed Riki being pretty useless.

    Also Sniper is an asshole. He wouldn't be nearly as bad if he didn't have that insane proc rate on Headshot with his insane range.
    Sniper is just waiting to be discovered by pro teams, IMO. His base damage sucks and he has no escape mechanism, but he doesn't even need many items before he's dangerous, and by time the early mid game rolls around he can plink people from well outside tower range and his ulti (being both cheap and on a short cooldown) makes fighting anywhere near Sniper extremely risky if you're around half health. Hell, Sniper can open with his ulti and drop underfarmed supports to half health before the fight even starts. Late game Sniper is truly scary, basically 800+ range permastun.

    Maybe pool him an early Wraith Band/Aquila for quick stats and to boost his damage. Then something to help him not die if Nightstalker comes out of the woods and says hi - Lothars is the usual choice but Dust is a really good answer to it when it's being used as an escape button. I'd imagine Mask of Madness would be good on Sniper after you already have some kind of damage item - like after Manta Style, maybe.

    Riki is still really strong, his cloud is OP as hell. I guess he'd be more common if he fit into the current meta well. He's like part ganker and part carry and isn't the best at either, and his laning is awful, so it seems like it's hard to find a place to squeeze him in right now. But his smoke cloud wins games and he hits extremely hard pretty quickly once he has treads+diffusal or treads+yasha.
    Last edited by PizzaSHARK; 2012-11-20 at 10:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
    MMOC IRC!

  19. #3559
    I am Murloc! Grading's Avatar
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    (I don't watch pro Dota games yet so don't take my word on this too literally.)

    I think the reason pro players wouldn't use Sniper much is because he's pretty much just good at taking down someone 1v1. If you are more people, and if you manage to ambush him or disable him, he's toast. I know this goes for most people (fuck, the stuns in Dota can be really brutal. Screw you Chaos Knight), but Sniper the most squishy bastard IN THE GAME.

    He does good damage, his Headshot thing is crazy and he has long range, but I imagine pro players would counter/ambush him pretty easily.

  20. #3560
    Sniper was the default solo mid pick back in 04? or 05, he has insane range, best attack animation in game, headshot is free MKB, but he is slow, has no health, no escape mechanism so he kinda fell out of grace as metagame evolved (then came orbwalking era and Silencer's glory days, then MYM.Merlini and his legendary Zeus as i recall). Sadly, Sniper doesn't offer anything than damage, and that's easy to come by in dota, while being easy to gank (morph was op because he was unkillable carry, not because of his damage potential).

    On the other hand, how would you all feel if items were nerfed in power a bit? In my opinion, we see same heroes in metagame because any holes in your team can be easily plugged by items, maybe we would see more dynamic picking because you'd need to proper counter enemy's team.

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