1. #3561
    Sniper was the default solo mid pick back in 04? or 05, he has insane range, best attack animation in game, headshot is free MKB, but he is slow, has no health, no escape mechanism so he kinda fell out of grace as metagame evolved (then came orbwalking era and Silencer's glory days, then MYM.Merlini and his legendary Zeus as i recall). Sadly, Sniper doesn't offer anything than damage, and that's easy to come by in dota, while being easy to gank (morph was op because he was unkillable carry, not because of his damage potential).

    On the other hand, how would you all feel if items were nerfed in power a bit? In my opinion, we see same heroes in metagame because any holes in your team can be easily plugged by items, maybe we would see more dynamic picking because you'd need to proper counter enemy's team.

  2. #3562
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    Quote Originally Posted by cudomix View Post
    Sniper was the default solo mid pick back in 04? or 05, he has insane range, best attack animation in game, headshot is free MKB, but he is slow, has no health, no escape mechanism so he kinda fell out of grace as metagame evolved (then came orbwalking era and Silencer's glory days, then MYM.Merlini and his legendary Zeus as i recall). Sadly, Sniper doesn't offer anything than damage, and that's easy to come by in dota, while being easy to gank (morph was op because he was unkillable carry, not because of his damage potential).

    On the other hand, how would you all feel if items were nerfed in power a bit? In my opinion, we see same heroes in metagame because any holes in your team can be easily plugged by items, maybe we would see more dynamic picking because you'd need to proper counter enemy's team.
    I'm undecided on nerfing items. Items are by far the most interesting aspect of Dota, especially compared to LoL, and of the items closest to being overpowered or in need of nerfing, it's usually due to an activated ability which can't be easily quantified.
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  3. #3563
    Quote Originally Posted by Swiftero View Post
    Man, there sure have been a lot of people acting big in this thread. Sounds mostly like people managed to feed TA and lost, then got mad.
    So you are saying we are bunch of noobs who got pwned and gone mad by TA that's why we think she's a good hero or she can win mid against SK?

    I see.

    This thread is getting more and more hilarious.

    About sniper, also keep in mind that sniper's projectile speed is one of the highest in game which lets him easily CS and deny. Only problem is he's like Drown Ranger which he lacks a reliable escape mechanism.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-11-20 at 06:43 PM.

  4. #3564
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    So you are saying we are bunch of noobs who got pwned and gone mad by TA that's why we think she's a good hero or she can win mid against SK?

    I see.

    This thread is getting more and more hilarious.

    About sniper, also keep in mind that sniper's projectile speed is one of the highest in game which lets him easily CS and deny. Only problem is he's like Drown Ranger which he lacks a reliable escape mechanism.
    First why is SK mid (assuming you mean Sand king, as Skeleton king would be an even worse choice- in my opinion)? TA is fairly easy to counter. Dust/wards for her meld and a dot of any kind for refraction. I've noticed in many games that if TA's defensive refraction is down... shes not as cocky/ballzy as if it were up.

    I like sniper as is. His squishy-ness makes up for his High dmg. The problem I see is most player focus on just that, his dmg. going for a shadow blade as his only real means of escape & defense, then building things like Deso, mkb. Many times I'll see the sniper (both enemy and friendly) for go getting a bkb, even when the enemy team has heavy magic dmg or cc, a decision that is usually based of how well his early game is. Personally I like building Eye of skedi and/or Manta with shadow blade, or eye/bkb with shadow blade.

  5. #3565
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichy View Post
    First why is SK mid (assuming you mean Sand king, as Skeleton king would be an even worse choice- in my opinion)? TA is fairly easy to counter. Dust/wards for her meld and a dot of any kind for refraction. I've noticed in many games that if TA's defensive refraction is down... shes not as cocky/ballzy as if it were up.

    I like sniper as is. His squishy-ness makes up for his High dmg. The problem I see is most player focus on just that, his dmg. going for a shadow blade as his only real means of escape & defense, then building things like Deso, mkb. Many times I'll see the sniper (both enemy and friendly) for go getting a bkb, even when the enemy team has heavy magic dmg or cc, a decision that is usually based of how well his early game is. Personally I like building Eye of skedi and/or Manta with shadow blade, or eye/bkb with shadow blade.
    There has been a 3, 4-page discussion about TA and SK or TA vs any hero in mid etc. That's why I thought he's talking about recent discussion.

    Well sniper is good and fun but that hero needs change of mechanics. In terms of DPS, Drown ranger is way way better than him and she got silence. His only arsenal is nearly perma-bash at high attack speed(I think stuns do not persist through BKB not sure tho) and the damage comes with headshot but you got a real problem until you get that point. His ulti is useless. I really doubt we would see him in current competitive scene unless some player feels like it and picks it. Shadowblade is not an escape mechanism just like meld. It's not a defensive item. Well, at least it's not meant to be and I don't think it would fit to sniper. I wonder how it would be if they make his ultimate global with same projectile speed.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-11-20 at 08:13 PM.

  6. #3566
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    I wonder how it would be if they make his ultimate global with same projectile speed.
    Why not make every spell in the game global, that would balance everything.

  7. #3567
    Quote Originally Posted by Daraiki View Post
    Why not make every spell in the game global, that would balance everything.
    You got a better idea? I would like to hear because that was just a thought not even a suggestion.

  8. #3568
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    You got a better idea? I would like to hear because that was just a thought not even a suggestion.
    New sniper tactic: Bloodstone, ulti everything you see earlygame.
    GG.

  9. #3569
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    There has been a 3, 4-page discussion about TA and SK or TA vs any hero in mid etc. That's why I thought he's talking about recent discussion.

    Well sniper is good and fun but that hero needs change of mechanics. In terms of DPS, Drown ranger is way way better than him and she got silence. His only arsenal is nearly perma-bash at high attack speed(I think stuns do not persist through BKB not sure tho) and the damage comes with headshot but you got a real problem until you get that point. His ulti is useless. I really doubt we would see him in current competitive scene unless some player feels like it and picks it. Shadowblade is not an escape mechanism just like meld. It's not a defensive item. Well, at least it's not meant to be and I don't think it would fit to sniper. I wonder how it would be if they make his ultimate global with same projectile speed.
    I've been following the last couple pages pretty loosely, but would have to say a TA mid != guaranteed win.

    Think your right on Head shot not going through BKB, but fairly certain mkb does (no one really gets this item anymore-from what I've seen solo queing) might need to test. Sniper's Ulty is no more useless then Laguna Blade or Finger of Death. However, its better than the last 2 do to its ridiculous range (1800 I believe, or there aboot). Also fairly certain Burizza works on utly and so does the add dmg from shadowblade stealth (testing tonight to see)

    Drows DPS only appears better because her ramp up time is lower (aura + ulty), however in the long run Sniper will win, at least this was the case in dota1 (the heros haven't changed much in a long time).

  10. #3570
    Quote Originally Posted by Ichy View Post
    I've been following the last couple pages pretty loosely, but would have to say a TA mid != guaranteed win.

    Think your right on Head shot not going through BKB, but fairly certain mkb does (no one really gets this item anymore-from what I've seen solo queing) might need to test. Sniper's Ulty is no more useless then Laguna Blade or Finger of Death. However, its better than the last 2 do to its ridiculous range (1800 I believe, or there aboot). Also fairly certain Burizza works on utly and so does the add dmg from shadowblade stealth (testing tonight to see)

    Drows DPS only appears better because her ramp up time is lower (aura + ulty), however in the long run Sniper will win, at least this was the case in dota1 (the heros haven't changed much in a long time).
    No1 said TA mid != guaranteed win. I'm kinda curious how did you get that idea. I think snipers ultimate is way more useless than both of those ultimates. Why?

    Both of those ultimates does significantly more damage compared to Assassinate. It's something around 325 or 350 damage if I remember correct which is pretty poor. Venge's stun + 1 right click will do same, if not more damage. Those spells are instant and Assasinate needs 1 or 2 seconds before releasing the projectile. Also during a team fight you need to wait the casting time while lina and lion can easly hit and run if necessary. Its only advantage is range but I really don't think thats a huge thing. Also sniper is a carry which makes the ultimate conceptually useless at some point because your right clicks will do more damage with some Headshot procs. If it was a dummy dps race, sniper would win on paper but its not. Personally, I don't consider both Drow Ranger and Sniper as strong carries.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-11-20 at 10:29 PM.

  11. #3571
    well, you cant actually compare Laguna Blade/Deadly Fingering to Assasinate.
    Why?
    Because Assasinate has 200\2500\3000 cast range, and is spammable at lvl3.

  12. #3572
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    well, you cant actually compare Laguna Blade/Deadly Fingering to Assasinate.
    Why?
    Because Assasinate has 200\2500\3000 cast range, and is spammable at lvl3.
    What?

    ps: It's not spammable. After two uses in a row, you will be out of mana. And again, that range is not a huge thing.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-11-20 at 10:48 PM.

  13. #3573
    Assassinate is an extremely powerful ult. Biggest strength is that you can't stop it or see it coming. That QoP blinks out of the team fight with 300 health? Dead. Rubick force staffs over some trees? Still dead. The range is extreme, the damage is extreme, and there is zero cooldown. A Lina ult from two screens away with a 10 second cooldown? I don't see how that is anything other than fantastic. Assassinate is how Sniper remains relevant early game, you can easily teleport to a side lane and pop your ult for free kills early game when people stay in lane with 350 health because 60% health feels like a lot when you aren't counting on sniper hitting you for 80% of that from farther range than you can see.

    I actually used to go 2x pers > skadi just for laughs back before shrapnel got nerfed. In DotA1 pubs nothing was funnier than going 20-0 spamming that ult. People get more defensive items now than they used to, but it's still a lot of damage.

    All that said, Drow's silence and global creepaura does likely make her a better hero than Sniper all around.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-20 at 10:52 PM.
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  14. #3574
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    What?

    ps: It's not spammable. After two uses in a row, you will be out of mana. And again, that range is not a huge thing.
    you haven't seen caster-build Snipers, I tell ya
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  15. #3575
    Quote Originally Posted by cudomix View Post
    On the other hand, how would you all feel if items were nerfed in power a bit? In my opinion, we see same heroes in metagame because any holes in your team can be easily plugged by items, maybe we would see more dynamic picking because you'd need to proper counter enemy's team.
    I think the possibility to plug holes in your team composition with items is what actually makes Dota interesting. Have problems with an Ursa? Buy a Blade Mail. Team lacking Hex, get a Scythe... Nerfing the items would increase the impact of the team composition, which can be quite frustrating when the enemy team hard counters you and you cant do anything against it. The game should not be decided at the selection window. I know I take it to the extreme.

    Plus would nerfing the items really get more heroes into the game? I dont think so, some new will enter, some will drop out for being too item dependent (therefor nerfed with the item nerf)

  16. #3576
    I have tried to rush Ethereal Balde with sniper a few times , it was pretty brutal on the games i was able to farm it early was able to eblade+ulti non str heroes to death , though i was getting oom after the combo so needed lots of regen items after that

  17. #3577
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Assassinate is an extremely powerful ult. Biggest strength is that you can't stop it or see it coming. That QoP blinks out of the team fight with 300 health? Dead. Rubick force staffs over some trees? Still dead. The range is extreme, the damage is extreme, and there is zero cooldown. A Lina ult from two screens away with a 10 second cooldown? I don't see how that is anything other than fantastic. Assassinate is how Sniper remains relevant early game, you can easily teleport to a side lane and pop your ult for free kills early game when people stay in lane with 350 health because 60% health feels like a lot when you aren't counting on sniper hitting you for 80% of that from farther range than you can see.

    I actually used to go 2x pers > skadi just for laughs back before shrapnel got nerfed. In DotA1 pubs nothing was funnier than going 20-0 spamming that ult. People get more defensive items now than they used to, but it's still a lot of damage.

    All that said, Drow's silence and global creepaura does likely make her a better hero than Sniper all around.
    You can't stop most ultimate in the game so I wouldn't count that as an advantage. It's true that you could TP and steal one kill or you could just stay in your ultimate range and kill on low-life enemy hero but while doing that, you could farm more gold on lane and maybe get a tower while others are busy with ganking top/bot whatever. The damage is not extreme, its very poor(since when 355 is greater than 500?). It's true that it has very low CD but you will be out of mana after second use.

    His ultimate has only use for picking low life enemy heroes and it, alone, does not make a ultimate great. If you dare to enter team fights, you most likely be crushed. All you can do is picking someone from range and you could earn more gold by just CSing in lane.

    ps: I was talking about a competitive game, not pubs.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-11-20 at 11:25 PM.

  18. #3578
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    You can't stop most ultimate in the game so I wouldn't count that as an advantage.
    Sure you can't stop them if they hit you, but if you see that Bane running in you know he's going to ult so you can prepare for it. If Tide starts walking into the middle of your team you know he's going to ravage so you can prepare for it. Sniper's ult is like a double damage Zeus ult, it can be anywhere and once he's targetted you nothing will stop it. Going invis can effectively stop plenty of ults, blinking as well, assassinate will chase both of these down.

    Let's keep comparing him to Drow. If you're a hero like WD, Drow can silence you and start nuking you with cold arrows. You can duck into a tree and TP out, problem solved. Sniper? Headshot will get you to half health and when you try to TP you get black hole where your head used to be. Mathematically assassinate might not look like much, but that much damage in one skill that can't be avoided for a hard carry is pretty significant. Especially since the cooldown is so low he can pretty much force the enemy mid out of lane the second he hits 6.

    Actually, assassinate is *almost* as powerful as culling blade is, it trades a little bit of damage for the ability to be cast at full health and have insane range. Would you argue Axe's ult is bad as well? Pretty sure most people consider it another extremely strong ultimate. Sniper can't assassinate someone through shallow grave or refraction, I guess.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2012-11-20 at 11:30 PM.
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  19. #3579
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Sure you can't stop them if they hit you, but if you see that Bane running in you know he's going to ult so you can prepare for it. If Tide starts walking into the middle of your team you know he's going to ravage so you can prepare for it. Sniper's ult is like a double damage Zeus ult, it can be anywhere and once he's targetted you nothing will stop it. Going invis can effectively stop plenty of ults, blinking as well, assassinate will chase both of these down.

    Let's keep comparing him to Drow. If you're a hero like WD, Drow can silence you and start nuking you with cold arrows. You can duck into a tree and TP out, problem solved. Sniper? Headshot will get you to half health and when you try to TP you get black hole where your head used to be. Mathematically assassinate might not look like much, but that much damage in one skill that can't be avoided for a hard carry is pretty significant. Especially since the cooldown is so low he can pretty much force the enemy mid out of lane the second he hits 6.

    Actually, assassinate is *almost* as powerful as culling blade is, it trades a little bit of damage for the ability to be cast at full health and have insane range. Would you argue Axe's ult is bad as well? Pretty sure most people consider it another extremely strong ultimate. Sniper can't assassinate someone through shallow grave or refraction, I guess.
    Sniper's ultimate is effective if no1 intervenes to that lane. You could just use ultimate two times in a row and force enemy to go base but that does not happen in reality. No1 would wait for sniper to nuke you to 100 hp. I consider his ultimate bad because he's a carry and his ultimate is effective at early game only if enemy team let him other than picking some low-hp heroes(which again does not make it a great ultimate). Axe has a good ultimate because enemy hp is irrelevant and there is no way to block him using his ultimate other than not going under %20 which is not up to player unless you wait in base. But there is a way to do it on sniper, just playing aggressive on him(trying to lock enemy carry is a common strategy) and there you go he wont even be able to cast his ultimate.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-11-20 at 11:40 PM.

  20. #3580
    So, what makes a good ultimate, in your opinion, and what makes it so different from assassinate? Assassinate is directly mathematically balanced between damage, mana cost, cooldown, range, and cast speed, and effectiveness with any other damage ultimate in the game. There are CC ultimates and utility ultimates, but it sounds like you hate an entire caste of ultimates because all they are is damage.

    Do you remember how ridiculous assassinate Rubick was before they give him the cast timer back?
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