[Megathread] DotA 2

[Deleted]

Isn't it kind of funny I make my counterargument better than you do and you do me the favor of rephrasing that argument to look bad? I'm sorry, but this just isn't working, I can't seriously argue something if my critic is only making the most obvious counterarguments look bad.

In Dota most heroes do well in public and competitive, and the rest do well in either but not both. As of now Morpling and Meepo are only ones that clearly don't do well in either. In the case of Meepo it seems fairly understandable, but I doubt such status is desirable for any 'normal' hero. Not from the perspective of a developer nor from that of a player.

Treant Protector, 41% winrate.
Phantom Assassin, 43% winrate.
Alchemist, 44% winrate.
Doom bringer, 44% winrate.
Outworld Destroyer, 45% winrate.
Huskar, 46% winrate.
Sniper, 47% winrate.
Bloodseeker, 47% winrate.............ETC.

None of these heroes are considered "good" and are considered low tier in competitive play, yet have slighly-to-noticably lower than 50% winrate in pubs.

There are more examples than this though, do not fear.

[Hermanni]

You're up to 47% though, which is ~1/4 of how far Morphling is off the equilibrium. Can I have some more, then?

[Deleted]

You're up to 47% though, which is ~1/4 of how far Morphling is off the equilibrium. Can I have some more, then?

Still makes them do less than average in pub play, while never seeing any (serious) competitive play..Which makes them bad according to you? Can I have some more?

[Lysah]

I'm going to go ahead and make my own counterargument here - as the competitive scene shifts rapidly, there's hard to tell where Morphlings true competitive potential is right now. However the fact that his pub winrate is very unhealthy still stands, which doesn't seem very good for a hero that - according to Lysah, at least - is supposed to be very easy to play.

It's a tough job to balance the game around pros and still keep it interesting for pubs, for sure. I would still argue that morph is easy to play compared to most other carry heroes. SA requires a hell of a lot more thought on timing, TA requires a hell of a lot more thought on positioning, PA is much, much harder to farm with.

However, look at these heroes from a typical public game's perspective. No one will buy true sight and SA can easily go 15-0. No one will buy wards so TA can easily gank and go 15-0. No one will be aggressive in lane phase so PA can farm and go 15-0. The easier the game gets the easier it is to be difficult heroes and the less it matters that morphling is easy to carry with. Once you go down enough in skill brackets it becomes a numbers game, this is why Ursa becomes huge among DotA youth.

I think morph's kit allows for very relaxed play. I've pretty much never been able stop even bad morph players from getting items and I doubt anyone else here has, either. He's also probably the hardest hero in the game to gank if you don't manage to silence him before he clicks morph strength. However, I don't deny that he has no real attack modifier and, despite his ability to have 3500 health 60 armor 300 auto attack damage passively, he doesn't do all that much damage outside of his spells. Because of this, I know you can expect to see heroes like Drow, Clinkz, or PA out DPS a morphling late game. Morph tends to get his items more safely and quickly than these heroes, however, which is what makes him strong.

I suspect the reason we don't see morphling as much now is because pros are sticking to their compact team lineups. Favorites like DS and Enigma promote close-knit play and team fights happen with all ten heroes on one screen. That isn't the only way to make a DotA team, but it's what I've noticed is currently trending. Morphling is one of many heroes who rely on splitting his enemies up and taking them down separately. If you're going to hover all four of your other heroes around your hard carry, you might as well pick a hero like Drow since your lineup is providing protection for her.

[Longview]

NONONONO.

Even if I bring a replay where morphling won a game he shouldn't have, people will come up with tons of excuses: "MORPH GOT FED GG SCRUBS" or "ENEMY TEAM THROWING GG"

And I am talking about high+ skill pub to pro play. I don't really care too much about pubs in the first place, but I am obviously not talking about games where people just auto-attack, cause then Ursa is OP.

Again, he got nerfed - So obviously people/developers agree with me, so the burden of proof lies with you that he SHOULDN'T have been nerfed

You did not even read my post, right?

Why do I even bother typing out words..

whoosh

(the scientific burden of proof has absolutely fuck all to do with any developers agreeing with you. Please quote me on making claims about Morphling, because I did not - at any point. You are making yourself look ridiculous)

[Finear]

dreamhack finals about to start
2:1 for EG

predictions ^^?

[Enkidulgaa]

I want to root for NTH because they're the underdogs and EG are american, but I think EG is probably gonna win. They've shown incredible performance this tournament while NTH only got so far because they prepared strategies against specific teams.
EG are just gonna pic something unconventional and outplay NTH.

[Hermanni]

People need to start banning knights when EG pick 2 or more in the first round of picks ;< I've seen them run the knight strat at least 7 times and they only lost once.

[Deleted]

You did not even read my post, right?

Why do I even bother typing out words..

whoosh

(the scientific burden of proof has absolutely fuck all to do with any developers agreeing with you. Please quote me on making claims about Morphling, because I did not - at any point. You are making yourself look ridiculous)

Not my fault you can't think like a rational human being. No shit I was talking about morphling, that's what the whole conversation was about. You suddenly pointing how (Wrongly so) how I could prove my point with statistics..I was just replying how no matter what information I would bring, someone would find it invalid.

[Kuntantee]

That was an insane battle at the end of second game EG vs NTH(I think).

[Lysah]

Is there somewhere that has compiled a list of recent hero picks/bans in tournaments, since we're talking about current trends? I probably won't watch the games themselves but as long the main focus of the thread is basically picks/bans it's useful information.

[Finear]

Is there somewhere that has compiled a list of recent hero picks/bans in tournaments, since we're talking about current trends? I probably won't watch the games themselves but as long the main focus of the thread is basically picks/bans it's useful information.

http://dota-academy.com/herolist/fro.../regions/ALL//
?
(since TI2)

[Hermanni]

http://dota-academy.com/herolist/fro.../regions/ALL//
?
(since TI2)

Since TI2 wouldn't be very up to date list since 6.75 and 6.76 were after it, and the trends have shifted quite a lot lately.

http://dota-academy.com/tournament/68/ is just for this Dreamhack Winter (though the finals aren't uploaded yet) but you can also just filter by date. I don't suggest looking further back than mid-october though.

Excellent finals anyway, especially the last 2 games, hoping Loda carried my fantasyleague to the top50 with his 5th freaking Dreamhack win.

[Finear]

Excellent finals anyway, especially the last 2 games, hoping Loda carried my fantasyleague to the top50 with his 5th freaking Dreamhack win.

i wonder whos going to pick NTH
even now 2players without lan exp they looks soo strong imagine whats going to happen once they start bootcamping hard

[Hermanni]

i wonder whos going to pick NTH
even now 2players without lan exp they looks soo strong imagine whats going to happen once they start bootcamping hard

I imagine they did practice some for DH, but apparently they already have a 'secret' sponsor of some kind, maybe just some person who sponsored them to DH and so on. Would be fun to see Loda carry that SK tag again.

[Lysah]

Since TI2 wouldn't be very up to date list since 6.75 and 6.76 were after it, and the trends have shifted quite a lot lately.

http://dota-academy.com/tournament/68/ is just for this Dreamhack Winter (though the finals aren't uploaded yet) but you can also just filter by date. I don't suggest looking further back than mid-october though.

Excellent finals anyway, especially the last 2 games, hoping Loda carried my fantasyleague to the top50 with his 5th freaking Dreamhack win.

Nice to see EG doing well, it's about time there was some America representation at the top, imo :x
Only ever see EG and coL in American pubs and was just beginning to think we were bad at DotA.

[Finear]

I imagine they did practice some for DH.

of course they did ^^
but after semi finals interview some one from NTH said that they are going to camp in sweden gaming house

[Hermanni]

Nice to see EG doing well, it's about time there was some America representation at the top, imo :x
Only ever see EG and coL in American pubs and was just beginning to think we were bad at DotA.

They played really, really well in the playoffs, their victory over Na´Vi was really solid even if they were sloppy in the group stages. NTH were one of my tournament favorites, but I didn't know how they'd come back after losing the first game... until they upped their game with their level 1 Roshan baits and whatnot. Still, even EG were behind a lot in game 3, they got really close to making a turnaround few times when they started forcing buybacks several times from NTH and almost took a rax several times. EG did impress me a lot in the aspect that even after they took a hit or were behind they always seemed to know exactly what they had to do to get back - even when behind they took the fight to enemy base and damn near won it.

Edit: Here's a short vid of the funny Roshan bait by NTH in game 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJkfnIgXfx4
Edit2: I forgot, short version of EG vs Na´Vi: http://i.imgur.com/pyu2O.gif (the game was already over at that point, but still, Fears Sven was pretty strong that game.)

[Longview]

Not my fault you can't think like a rational human being. No shit I was talking about morphling, that's what the whole conversation was about.

I'm sorry, do you really feel like this part is warranted?

You suddenly pointing how (Wrongly so) how I could prove my point with statistics..I was just replying how no matter what information I would bring, someone would find it invalid.

Like you conveniently ignored the statistics provided by Worer and Hermanni? I can only speak for myself, but I would not overlook actual statistics used as proof. Which you provided none. At any point. Funny how that goes.

[Deleted]

I'm sorry, do you really feel like this part is warranted?



Like you conveniently ignored the statistics provided by Worer and Hermanni? I can only speak for myself, but I would not overlook actual statistics used as proof. Which you provided none. At any point. Funny how that goes.

I do feel it was warranted. Now stop responding to me, you're obviously skipping half the posts that doesn't suite you, since I did actually provide evidence how statistics in pubs doesn't mean anything.

And to the statistics in over-all competitive games doesn't mean anything either(the link Worer provided). In that morph had 52% winrate together with Naga, who also got nerfed.. Yet treant protector who had 60% winrate got a buff. So these numbers mean shit. You have to divide the competitive scene into tiers, not just EVERYONE in the same pool of statistics.

Edit: According to Worer's link, Morphling had a 61% winrate as a hard carry, and 81% winrate when he was solo mid.