1. #3841
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Even with nethertoxin his damage feels embarrassing for an agility hero late game. I went 3-0 against Drow the other day and ended up losing hard once she turned 6. She had CM babysit her mid for a few minutes while she caught up in CS (couldn't compete with her ultimate for last hitting at all) and once we were both around 11 she could just stand still and right click me and win even through the attack speed slow of my ult. Viper is a hero who only seems to do well when he's 8 levels higher than everyone else because he got absurdly fed early.

    I agree that his scepter is good and seems awesome on paper but he doesn't bring a whole lot else to an actual team fight and the ultimate doesn't appear to be as crippling as it sounds on several carries (like Drow who gets so damn much agility from her ult that she can fire hilariously quick even through an 80% slow).
    Yeah, but Drow's overpowered as hell last time I checked, which is why she ain't in CM. I don't consider Viper a late game hero - I think you would pick him because he's very difficult to deal with in lane and because he blooms early (vs a lot of lanes, he gets free kills as soon as he hits 6 unless they play very defensively), not because of any late-game utility he might have.

    It may just be that he falls into the same pit Razor does since most teams either pick a true carry for that slot, or go without a true carry (and instead pick something like Bounty Hunter to fill that "DPS" slot.)
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  2. #3842
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Viper in general is in my opinion a good general pick.
    I'd say any hero is a good pick (barring Techies), but Viper isn't all that general. His niche is pinning down single enemies and outlasting enemies (or at least in the most common playstyle), but he certainly is devastating in almost any pub game.

    Thing about Viper is that he punishes bad judgement. Like you said, in average level pub games he can easily take a kill on a badly positioned enemy, and he will punish anyone who attempts to take offensive against him and fails. It's very common for inexperienced or even experienced players to under-estimate Viper and end up dying because they thought they could kill him before he killed them or because they thought they could get away if he took the initiative.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-30 at 01:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I agree that his scepter is good and seems awesome on paper but he doesn't bring a whole lot else to an actual team fight and the ultimate doesn't appear to be as crippling as it sounds on several carries (like Drow who gets so damn much agility from her ult that she can fire hilariously quick even through an 80% slow).
    You probably know this, but for those that wonder, the attack speed slows are applied in the same way as attack speed increases before the attack time is calculated from base attack time. As in, all the attack speeds are additive with each other up to the maximum of 400 IAS. All attack speeds work the same way regardless of whether the game lists them as a % or a #. Which is why Viper's 105% (with Corrosive Skin) or Enchantress' 90% IAS reductions are very crippling to enemies who are below 100 IAS - but past, say, 200 IAS these effects become much less efficient. Which would be why late game Drow with some items and nobody at her melee range wouldn't really care that much about Viper Strike. Same reason why I've said Tiny with rank 3 ultimate is a rather pitiful right-clicker until he gets enough IAS to ignore the ultimate reduction.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-11-30 at 04:49 PM.



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  3. #3843
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    I'd say any hero is a good pick (barring Techies), but Viper isn't all that general. His niche is pinning down single enemies and outlasting enemies (or at least in the most common playstyle), but he certainly is devastating in almost any pub game.

    Thing about Viper is that he punishes bad judgement. Like you said, in average level pub games he can easily take a kill on a badly positioned enemy, and he will punish anyone who attempts to take offensive against him and fails. It's very common for inexperienced or even experienced players to under-estimate Viper and end up dying because they thought they could kill him before he killed them or because they thought they could get away if he took the initiative.
    Generally speaking, being more than a few feet outside of tower range and inside Viper Strike range means Viper gets a free kill once he hits level 6. Amusingly, though, I've seen Silencers completely trash Vipers in a solo mid competition - that 50 range difference makes a world of, uh, difference.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-30 at 01:42 PM ----------

    [/COLOR]

    You probably know this, but for those that wonder, the attack speed slows are applied in the same way as attack speed increases before the attack time is calculated from base attack time. As in, all the attack speeds are additive with each other up to the maximum of 400 IAS. All attack speeds work the same way regardless of whether the game lists them as a % or a #. Which is why Viper's 105% (with Corrosive Skin) or Enchantress' 90% IAS reductions are very crippling to enemies who are below 100 IAS - but past, say, 200 IAS these effects become much less efficient. Which would be why late game Drow with some items and nobody at her melee range wouldn't really care that much about Viper Strike. Same reason why I've said Tiny with rank 3 ultimate is a rather pitiful right-clicker until he gets enough IAS to ignore the ultimate reduction.[/QUOTE]

    That makes a lot more sense; but why say "80%" instead of just plain "80" if the modifiers stack additively? Why not say "reduces enemy attack speed by 80" rather than 80%?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
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  4. #3844
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    That makes a lot more sense; but why say "80%" instead of just plain "80" if the modifiers stack additively? Why not say "reduces enemy attack speed by 80" rather than 80%?
    The game doesnt even tell you when an ability goes through magic immunity, the tooltips in this game are seriously lacking.
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  5. #3845
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkidulgaa View Post
    The game doesnt even tell you when an ability goes through magic immunity, the tooltips in this game are seriously lacking.
    Not to mention they lack the cool description Dota had of spells

  6. #3846
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkidulgaa View Post
    The game doesnt even tell you when an ability goes through magic immunity, the tooltips in this game are seriously lacking.
    Knowing a ton of mechanics will give you a slight edge over people who don't put the time in. Rule of thumb: The damage of magical ultimates get blocked, their slow/stun/disable does not. Are there any non-ultimate abilities that go through magic immunity? I can't think of any.

    edit: there are some that go partially through magic immunity: bash from melee heroes (not skull basher), doom, march of the machines, midnight pulse
    Last edited by Longview; 2012-11-30 at 08:37 PM.

  7. #3847
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    Knowing a ton of mechanics will give you a slight edge over people who don't put the time in. Rule of thumb: The damage of magical ultimates get blocked, their slow/stun/disable does not. Are there any non-ultimate abilities that go through magic immunity? I can't think of any.
    Several abilities that do physical damage, like Shadow Wave. Though I don't think targeted physical abilities still work (well, besides Omnislash)

    Oh right, also Naga net and Berserker's Call.
    Last edited by Zefie; 2012-11-30 at 09:19 PM.

  8. #3848
    lone druid entangle

  9. #3849
    Toss. Tossing juggernaut out of his spin is pretty solid.
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  10. #3850
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkidulgaa View Post
    The tooltips in this game are seriously lacking.
    This. A game needs to tell you all of its mechanics clearly, not some mystery that you need to try before being sure. I don't even remember howmany times I forget a certain mechanic and tried to be sure in game because there was a huge lack of documentation about game mechanics. I really hope Valve devs understand that org DotA was a game of constraints and it needed tons of improvements not just balance or graphics or technology wise...So far I'm pretty disappointed with UI and mechanic documentation.

    It's year 2012 and Valve is not working on WC3 engine. I really don't like their development philosophy(I believe that is because of IceFrog being too conservative or he's afraid of community criticism for drastic changes).

    So far we have a unified client and shiny new graphics + smooter controls which are appriciated but these things were expected to be done anyway. I want to see more improvements starting from UI...but hey people don't like change even if its piece of shit in terms of Human Computer Interaction wise.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-12-01 at 02:34 AM.

  11. #3851
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    you
    I just played Merlini and his friends twice solo queing. Not that I want to bring up an old argument but if you want proof I play with the best players in the world it should be directly in my game history now. You were so eager to see my solo queue games before so I felt obliged to inform you that I solo queued today.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
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  12. #3852
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    stuff
    I'm pretty sure it has been ~6 months or so since we had that discussion. You do play with professionals indeed(this time I believe you) but not on a daily basis, its more like semi-annual basis...

    Now if you don't want to bring old discussions up, then just don't.

  13. #3853
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    I'm pretty sure it has been ~6 months or so since we had that discussion. You do play with professionals indeed(this time I believe you) but not on a daily basis, its more like semi-annual basis...

    Now if you don't want to bring old discussions up, then just don't.
    You're quite comical in how quickly your attitude changes when you know you're wrong.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
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  14. #3854
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    So far we have a unified client and shiny new graphics + smooter controls which are appriciated but these things were expected to be done anyway. I want to see more improvements starting from UI...but hey people don't like change even if its piece of shit in terms of Human Computer Interaction wise.
    What UI improvements would you like to see except the huge facelift we already got? List something instead of just saying "I'm disappointed with this" or "this sucks".

  15. #3855
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    What UI improvements would you like to see except the huge facelift we already got? List something instead of just saying "I'm disappointed with this" or "this sucks".
    The question wasnt directed at me but I'd like to comment regardless.

    What I'd like is to have some kind of ingame encyclopedia that can be viewed during games by using simple commands.
    For example, GW2 hat a neat system where you could type /wiki [name of ability, quest or NPC] and it would take you to the offical wiki page for that keyword
    In Dota2 you should be able to rightlick abilites in the <killed by> tab and go directly to a page that tells you exactly how this ability functions in regards to magic immunity, linkens etc.
    Right clicking your own abilites should also have this option.
    I appreciate that these mechanics are in the game because thats what makes it difficult, but it shouldnt be difficult because it withholds information from the player.
    Quote Originally Posted by icylock View Post
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  16. #3856
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enkidulgaa View Post
    I appreciate that these mechanics are in the game because thats what makes it difficult, but it shouldnt be difficult because it withholds information from the player.
    This is my argument for actually putting in tooltips about mechanics in the game. The game should be about who uses the given tools to their maximum and a shitty player will still be a shitty player just that he might actually learn what he did wrong.

  17. #3857
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycoris View Post
    Several abilities that do physical damage, like Shadow Wave. Though I don't think targeted physical abilities still work (well, besides Omnislash)

    Oh right, also Naga net and Berserker's Call.
    All of Dazzle's spells are actually physical, not magical.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    MMOC IRC!

  18. #3858
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    You're quite comical in how quickly your attitude changes when you know you're wrong.
    My attitude never changed to your bullshits. When you make strong argument I take you seriously. When you don't and throw unique bullshits of yours I just give appropriate answer. You tell me that you have proof that you are playing with pros after 6 months of discussion, do you want me to take it seriously. Anyway, even you are right I just don't like the way you tell it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    What UI improvements would you like to see except the huge facelift we already got? List something instead of just saying "I'm disappointed with this" or "this sucks".
    I'm not fan of fixed UIs but just for the sake of "fairness" which I don't think related with some 1, 2 cm square available space in screen but anyway here is what I would expect
    - Remove useless textures
    - Remove hero portrait
    - Make spells smaller
    - A health globe just like in GW 2 would be better(but this is just my personal preference)
    - Enhanced tooltips
    - Loading tips would be good for new users(there was something smilar in dota-utilities.com)


    After these changes, the UI will feel better I believe. This game is ACTION RTS. The reason why there was hero portrait in WC3 because it was heavily story-driven and when you consider that it makes sense but in DotA2, no1 gives a shit to lore and lore will never ever be the strong point in this genre. Also, action RTS genre indeed involves intense actions, if you limit UI with unnecessary textures, then, it just won't make sense and effect game play experience in a bad manner. I'm not UI specialist but I do understand the basics of Human-Computer Interaction and current UI makes no sense.

    A tip for you: next time if you are interested check my post history because when I say something is bad I generally come up with ideas and I mentioned about these changes before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enkidulgaa View Post
    For example, GW2 hat a neat system where you could type /wiki [name of ability, quest or NPC
    Wiki can not solution because everyone can edit it. When some troll edits the critical information you need during game, you will be misinformed. Game needs its own documentation.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-12-01 at 12:10 PM.

  19. #3859
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    - Remove useless textures
    - Remove hero portrait
    - Make spells smaller
    - A health globe just like in GW 2 would be better(but this is just my personal preference)
    - Enhanced tooltips
    - Loading tips would be good for new users(there was something smilar in dota-utilities.com)
    I disagree with all of those and much doubt some of them will ever happen, save for the loading tips which I frankly don't care about.

    When it comes to tooltips, HoN makes a good example. They used to have massive tooltips with almost every bit of information you could think of, which was actually fairly useful at times. However it turned out a lot of people didn't like them, and $2 changed them to something similar to what Dota 2 has now and everyone loved them. They did leave an option for enabling the old tooltips, but they were more or less broken for new heroes.

    But I don't really care about tooltips in Dota 2, there's little to no things I don't remember and the only things I sometimes check are the level scaling values which are displayed anyway. They should just make the in-game hero database better, and maybe sometime in the future when they have time make advanced tooltips available.



    Manni | paragon.fi | Dota 2 forum | The golden rule: Listen to Lysah.

  20. #3860
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    All of Dazzle's spells are actually physical, not magical.
    Well yeah but Poison Touch doesn't work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enkidulgaa View Post
    Right clicking your own abilites should also have this option.
    Right clicking wouldn't be the best button though since IIRC, it's used for turning autocast on and off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    This game is ACTION RTS. The reason why there was hero portrait in WC3 because it was heavily story-driven and when you consider that it makes sense but in DotA2, no1 gives a shit to lore and lore will never ever be the strong point in this genre.
    Maybe it's just me but I actually care a great deal for the characters and lore in this game. Okay, the "lore" is pretty much internet generator-level and some of their voice acting is a bit...suspect but still.
    Last edited by Zefie; 2012-12-01 at 12:49 PM.

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