1. #3921
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    It really is "that" bad, man. How to jungle, how to counter-jungle, how to ward and where to ward, how to counter-ward and where to place those counter-wards, 118(?) heroes' worth of skills and abilities and playstyles multiplied by multiple item build orders for each hero, tricky uses of common items (Armlet toggling, etc), what items to get and when, what items not to get and when, and on and on and on and on and on.

    And it's not like you need to know this in passing, you need to have it freaking memorized so you can call it up at will, because it IS going to matter.

    As I'm sure Hermanni, Lysah, and the other players that play at the high end of the MMR scale can tell you, the difference between good and bad below their level is almost wholly related to knowledge of the game, not actual player skill. There is a simply enormous amount of information to be memorized, digested, and regurgitated on command just to be able to play the game at an "average," level. It's a MASSIVE barrier to entry and I'd put it up there on the same level as games like Dwarf Fortress and Rogue.

    Compare this to a game like Starcraft II. Yeah, there's definitely build orders to learn and information about units and upgrade timings and whatnot to learn, but you run out of "you must know this to not die," information fairly quickly and it becomes working on your execution - working on getting that APM up so 3 infestors can't fungal 40 marines to death with 200 energy, on maneuvering units into good engagement positions, etc.

    And then you have games like QuakeWorld on the opposite end of the scale - there's very little information to memorize, mostly just medpack and armor respawn timings and map layouts, but a staggering amount of raw skills (APM) that you have to learn to do in order to reach and compete at that "average" level of play.

    And of the three, I'd say Dota is the most difficult to get into, because until you have all that knowledge, your APM isn't going to matter a whole lot - if you don't know that Juggy can spin to prevent you from nuking him down, you're going to feed and feed and feed regardless of your APM being higher than theirs.
    And no new player cares or even SHOULD care about the more complex things like at the start. Thats why you dont see new people, because you put unreasonable expecations on them. Who the hell cares if new players does warding or counterwarding? someone more experienced and more suited to the role can do that. For new player, its perfectly fine if he focuses on fundametals - heroes and their synergies, laning in player environment, proper way to CS/deny, important items for different situations.

    The ONLY reason why its harder to get into dota 2 than is because there are no "noob games" for people to learn harder things in somewhat relaxed conditions, instead they are thrown into matchmaking with the likes of you who expect from them impossible tasks and throw a hissyfit every time they dont do something properly. They dont NEED to learn harder things from the get go, they however absolutely NEED to get a good feel of the game pace and need to get comfortable playing the game and heroes and against heroes/combos without being called noob every two minutes.

    The game needs to get tutorials asap for sure, but the mentor program and game going live free for everyone are the more important things. I went with friend who has played like 2 hours of LoL before, he picked easy hero and was stomped nontheless, because even after i warned him dozen times, he still dived enemy tower against dazzle yurnero. But he was HAVING FUN... Until two wannabe-pros started flaming him.

    The issue arent the newbies or the knowledge they have or dont have. Its those seasoned players that cant get over few missteps of those newbies that might cost them the game.

    I havent played quake like at all, since it was just not my thing, I always preferred CS, but again, the only reason SC2 is easier to get into is because you get matched against opponents on your level of (no)skill, this just isnt possible in dota2 at this time with the regular matchmaking and the ammount of people that (can) play. If half of their matches were against low masters, you can bet new people wouldnt play SC2 for more than few games, too.

  2. #3922
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    It really is "that" bad, man.
    It really isn't. I've played for a long time and some might think I've forgotten what it was like to be a noob, but I remember what it was like when I started DotA like it was yesterday. I played with some friends, had no idea what was going on but I had a blast and was left hungering for more. I'd learn mostly by playing the game, getting some tips from friends and sometimes reading about DotA related stuff when I wasn't playing. Sometimes I'd have my mind blown from watching a competitive replay of Merlini jungling with Beastmaster like a wizard.

    What kind of bothers me is that it seems like a lot of people who try to teach newcomers seem intent on overloading their subject(s) with information. Learn these things, memorize all this, read these guides... for what? To have fun? Are you introducing your friend to a game so that they could enjoy playing it or are you just trying to train a personal wardbitch out of someone? What do you think a new player cares about more, making it to the high end matchmaking or just having fun?

    Just let new players try and enjoy the game and figure things on their own unless they actually tell you they want to learn everything and be great players at any cost. Let them ask questions and get used to one thing at a time instead of demanding that they get good so they're ready for matchmaking with you. When I was first asked to play DotA I had no idea what the game looked like or how it was played, now I probably know more about the game than 98% of the players, but between those two there isn't any time when I weren't having a great time just playing the game.

    P.S. I used the word "you" a lot, but this post wasn't directed to anyone in particular.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2012-12-04 at 02:22 PM.
    Manni of Paragon. Moderator of Dota 2 subforum - The golden rule: Listen to Lysah. Seriously.

  3. #3923
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    well now, you're just exxagerating.
    I play mainly in SEA region, and tell you, its as bad to people unfortunate enough to play in those matchs. Mostly people from Phil (and malay? cant really tell which language is which) who definitely can speak English but choose to speak in their language anyway. Worse, they voice-chat in Phillipino. There were times when I was so pissed of I pulled the mic close to PC speakers and turned max volume. Let them eat their own shiet.

  4. #3924
    Saying DotA 2 has FUCKIIING INSANE AMOUNT OF INFO TO MEMORIZE is an insult to human brain and capability. Commit 1 month extensive study over dota, you will be master on paper. The problem is getting enough experience to execute the knowledge which comes with playing a lot.

    About Russians...At first the Russian players I was playing was great and then it started to fuck up. I, too, sometimes speak my own language in-game chat but when foreign people try to communicate with me I reply in English. This is what Russians are not doing because very few of Russians can speak English. I'm going to say that the players in my country are like Russians. Not because they are trolls, because they just can't speak English. All in all, I prefer to ignore those who resist to communicate or when I'm annoyed by their language instead of racist nerdrages.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-12-04 at 03:10 PM.

  5. #3925
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Saying DotA 2 has FUCKIIING INSANE AMOUNT OF INFO TO MEMORIZE is an insult to human brain and capability. Commit 1 month extensive study over dota, you will be master on paper. The problem is getting enough experience to execute the knowledge which comes with playing a lot.
    your average human can fail at even smaller pools of information, friend
    Sure as sure

  6. #3926
    Quote Originally Posted by kronpas View Post
    I play mainly in SEA region, and tell you, its as bad to people unfortunate enough to play in those matchs. Mostly people from Phil (and malay? cant really tell which language is which) who definitely can speak English but choose to speak in their language anyway. Worse, they voice-chat in Phillipino. There were times when I was so pissed of I pulled the mic close to PC speakers and turned max volume. Let them eat their own shiet.
    You know that you can mute anyone you want, right?

  7. #3927
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    your average human can fail at even smaller pools of information, friend
    Even objects that an average human knows more than what we are talking about. It's all about motivation.

  8. #3928
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Even objects that an average human knows more than what we are talking about. It's all about motivation.
    yeah sure, but why would i spend month only on hardcore memorizing dota stuff just to "have fun" (as it is a point in non-competitive gaming)

  9. #3929
    Quote Originally Posted by Finear View Post
    yeah sure, but why would i spend month only on hardcore memorizing dota stuff just to "have fun" (as it is a point in non-competitive gaming)
    I was just trying to point out the amount of DotA 2 involves is not that much. I wasn't suggesting it and it's not fun at all.

  10. #3930
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Even objects that an average human knows more than what we are talking about. It's all about motivation.
    so tell me now, why would an average man, who logs into dota2 to "have fun", learn anything about this game?
    Would you suggest people in your yard who play soccer, actually learn ALL the rules?
    The point Im trying to make is, the crowd is big, and the crowd consists of averages.
    Dota22 community also consists of averages.
    Mostly, but not all.
    Sure as sure

  11. #3931
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    I was just trying to point out the amount of DotA 2 involves is not that much. I wasn't suggesting it and it's not fun at all.
    but compared to other games it is (imo), on your average player level anyway
    i was doing fine in LoL at lvl5 with knowledge about 5 items and 10 champions playing vs lvl 30s
    gl with that in dota
    Last edited by Finear; 2012-12-04 at 03:48 PM.

  12. #3932
    Quote Originally Posted by Wookeh View Post
    I'm in no way exaggerating, what i said happens pretty much every single game. If you choose to play on a EU west (or even east) server you speak what others are speaking, ENGLISH, becuase it's a language the vast majority of us understand and speak ourselves. Not Russian, a language nobody really gives a crap about and hardly anyone speaks outside of Russia. They choose to join our servers, adapt or get the hell out, simple as 1, 2, 3.
    On the contrary, I had a nick with cyrillic characters for a long time. I'm not from Russia, I have never been to Russia. I speak very basic Russian. The amount of baseless hate from people frothing at their mouths once they see someone they think is Russian on the loading screen was ridiculous. People typing "gg retard russian we lost" before the game even started. The times I solo- or duo-queue with a friend, most I ever say is "gl hf" at the start - and "gg" at the end. I don't see how typing "привет" or "хорошая игра" would somehow be massively draining for my team. The notion that some people judge other team mates before they have even seen them play is preposterous to me.

  13. #3933
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    On the contrary, I had a nick with cyrillic characters for a long time. I'm not from Russia, I have never been to Russia. I speak very basic Russian. The amount of baseless hate from people frothing at their mouths once they see someone they think is Russian on the loading screen was ridiculous. People typing "gg retard russian we lost" before the game even started. The times I solo- or duo-queue with a friend, most I ever say is "gl hf" at the start - and "gg" at the end. I don't see how typing "привет" or "хорошая игра" would somehow be massively draining for my team. The notion that some people judge other team mates before they have even seen them play is preposterous to me.
    stereotypes, my friend
    Stereotype russian is a mouth-breather, with Tourettes to boot, and a gross noob
    Sure as sure

  14. #3934
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    On the contrary, I had a nick with cyrillic characters for a long time. I'm not from Russia, I have never been to Russia. I speak very basic Russian. The amount of baseless hate from people frothing at their mouths once they see someone they think is Russian on the loading screen was ridiculous. People typing "gg retard russian we lost" before the game even started. The times I solo- or duo-queue with a friend, most I ever say is "gl hf" at the start - and "gg" at the end. I don't see how typing "привет" or "хорошая игра" would somehow be massively draining for my team. The notion that some people judge other team mates before they have even seen them play is preposterous to me.
    russian nick ftw
    финеар ;d

  15. #3935
    Quote Originally Posted by Finear View Post
    russian nick ftw
    финеар ;d
    Mine was after an ancient (2004-era) 2ch.ru meme nobody remembers anymore. It fit very well with how me and my friends played the game.

  16. #3936
    Quote Originally Posted by Storm the Sorrow View Post
    so tell me now, why would an average man, who logs into dota2 to "have fun", learn anything about this game?
    Would you suggest people in your yard who play soccer, actually learn ALL the rules?
    The point Im trying to make is, the crowd is big, and the crowd consists of averages.
    Dota22 community also consists of averages.
    Mostly, but not all.
    I don't suggest any new players to learn all information in a month or study the game. I was just pointing out the amount of information is not that big. That's what I was discussing.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2012-12-04 at 06:14 PM.

  17. #3937
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    I don't suggest any new players to learn all information in a month or study the game. I was just pointing out the amount of information is not that big. That's what I was discussing.
    well yeah, but Im trying to make a point that people who dont invest serious, pro-level efforts into a game, tend to not care/know rules to begin with
    Sure as sure

  18. #3938
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    I was just trying to point out the amount of DotA 2 involves is not that much. I wasn't suggesting it and it's not fun at all.
    It requires a lot more memorization than SC2 or any shooter. It's a huge barrier to entry, to get to the point where you aren't going to automatically lose fights/games because you don't even know what every hero does.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    The best you people can do is throw insults and lay your perspective on what a real adult is onto me but I will continue to reject them. And you will try and try again, force me into submission but I will continue to press on.
    MMOC IRC!

  19. #3939
    Dreadlord Wookeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    So, when someone calls you an idiot for dying, you wan't them to be phased to other server? I can't see any trouble, you get flamed on english langauge (not russian), so why do you complain
    No, it's when they expect something from you and communicate in a language nobody gives a shit about and 99.9% of the EU West citizens don't understand. Communication is key, like i said.

  20. #3940
    with the amount of complains regarding russian players and the existence of a RUSSIAN server, i dont see a problem with valve filtering all russian IPs and letting them queue only in the russian server.

    that will end a TREMENDOUS amount of grief in regular pub games

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