[Megathread] DotA 2

[Thallidomaniac]

yet I stand on my point that it is entirely possible to have fun while being determined to win.

If your game turns into a job, you've already lost.
learn to balance, dunno, or something.

The thing is, usually when games become a job, the players are also bound to get demoted/fired if they don't meet up to standards, i.e. winning. Being eliminated early on in tournaments repeatedly won't keep the sponsors with them.

[Sackman]

lets just agree to disagree then, for the sake of good manners

there is no correlation between having A+ with english language and sucking at dota2.
sorry, no, nada, none

No, let's not agree to disagree. You can say "my experience is different" or "I think you are lying", but you can't say "no I'm sorry I don't agree with what you have seen or heard we are gonna have to agree to disagree".

I have nothing to disagree with you about. I am stating my experience. Stop trying to change it from that or undermine it. It is what it is.

[Morally Grey Storm]

The thing is, usually when games become a job, the players are also bound to get demoted/fired if they don't meet up to standards, i.e. winning. Being eliminated early on in tournaments repeatedly won't keep the sponsors with them.

hence my remark about auto-loss

No, let's not agree to disagree. You can say "my experience is different" or "I think you are lying", but you can't say "no I'm sorry I don't agree with what you have seen or heard we are gonna have to agree to disagree".

I have nothing to disagree with you about. I am stating my experience. Stop trying to change it from that or undermine it. It is what it is.

oh well ,lets not
My experience is indeed diffrent(while I somewhat agree with you about infamous russian arrogance), yet I claim there are literally times and times more faggots who are -gasp!- not russians(and I base it off my personal experience since I am playing with all the kinds of english-speakers for a focking long time).
Your experience is just different(or perhaps point of view) since you are playing mainly with english-speakers.

[Lysah]

And who the fuck are you to tell me what I enjoy or not?

If I enjoy playing competitively, striving to do my best, then who are you to tell me I don't?

I don't believe I was offered actual proof that N'avi are enjoying their competitive play, only the word of a fan.

Speaking of playing for fun, my friends, just the other day, did a 5 man bottom lane first blood and push lane. Got two towers down in two minutes and went mid for two more towers - all 5 of them bought necronomicon and ended up winning with pure pushing force - and they had fun in the process. See, it's not that hard if people just put the tryhard hat away for a while.

[Deleted]

I don't believe I was offered actual proof that N'avi are enjoying their competitive play, only the word of a fan.

Speaking of playing for fun, my friends, just the other day, did a 5 man bottom lane first blood and push lane. Got two towers down in two minutes and went mid for two more towers - all 5 of them bought necronomicon and ended up winning with pure pushing force - and they had fun in the process. See, it's not that hard if people just put the tryhard hat away for a while.

<3 <3 <3 <3 my type of Dota

[Hermanni]

I don't believe I was offered actual proof that N'avi are enjoying their competitive play, only the word of a fan.

Speaking of playing for fun, my friends, just the other day, did a 5 man bottom lane first blood and push lane. Got two towers down in two minutes and went mid for two more towers - all 5 of them bought necronomicon and ended up winning with pure pushing force - and they had fun in the process. See, it's not that hard if people just put the tryhard hat away for a while.

I'm trying hard to see the point of the last sentence. I know people who didn't tryhard and had fun once, tryhard bad, fun good, Q.E.D? Aside from the fact that 5 Necrobooks is one of the most imba strats for pubs, I kind of have hard time seeing why any particular style of playing would necessarily be more fun than another for everyone. I have fun 99.8% of the times I boot up Dota 2 and how I play ranges from playing the most retarded lanes and itembuilds I can possibly think of to countering the enemy TI3 lineup with extra serious play when 5-stacking.

[Lysah]

I don't find being forced to play any hero fun. I like ES but if I had to pick him just to counter an enemy pick it wouldn't be fun anymore. Being forced to play a certain way just to make the game fair takes a lot of the fun out of it, this is why everyone hates tryhards. Generally, the more serious you are the more emotionally invested you are and the more you have to lose. I have fun maybe 20% of the time I click the accept button, for a number of reasons.

[PizzaSHARK]

<3 <3 <3 <3 my type of Dota

That weird ALL GO MID playstyle is probably the most amusing and fun diversion I can think of. I'd much rather do that as a break from "serious" play than anything else.

[Migey]

I don't believe I was offered actual proof that N'avi are enjoying their competitive play, only the word of a fan.

Speaking of playing for fun, my friends, just the other day, did a 5 man bottom lane first blood and push lane. Got two towers down in two minutes and went mid for two more towers - all 5 of them bought necronomicon and ended up winning with pure pushing force - and they had fun in the process. See, it's not that hard if people just put the tryhard hat away for a while.

So?

I also have fun pissing about in LoL and DoTA and plenty of games, just doing random stuff for shits and giggles, and just playing normally to relax. I'm not saying that N'avi enjoys playing competitively, because I really don't have much idea who he is, so I couldn't say, although I imagine if he did not he wouldn't play competitively...

But what annoyed me was your implication that one cannot enjoy, or should not enjoy, playing with a very competitive mindset, or 'playing to win'. Because some people do enjoy that. Some peolpe enjoy only that, some enjoy only casual, some enjoy both. I do know then I can't enjoy either/or in any given moment; I either play competitively or play casual, and when I'm doing one I find it hard to get into the mindset of the other, but I enjoy them both equally for different reasons, and just because you don't, or disagree with playing competitively, does not mean that others cannot.

Many people love competitively. Stop telling me what I or anyone else can or can't enjoy.

[Lysah]

Stop telling me what I or anyone else can or can't enjoy.

I haven't yet. But I'm about to.

Realize this, playing the game does not mean you're having fun. Actually, gamers are VERY GOOD at playing games that they don't find fun at all. Look at me, I almost never have fun playing DotA and I still log in almost daily. At least I can admit it to myself, the reason I play is simply because I've got nothing else to do and I feel compelled to spend my time doing something I'm good at at the very least. In the same sense, playing to win being fun because winning is fun is just an illusion and will wear off in time.

tl;dr
Calm down.

[Longview]

I don't believe I was offered actual proof that N'avi are enjoying their competitive play, only the word of a fan.

Speaking of playing for fun, my friends, just the other day, did a 5 man bottom lane first blood and push lane. Got two towers down in two minutes and went mid for two more towers - all 5 of them bought necronomicon and ended up winning with pure pushing force - and they had fun in the process. See, it's not that hard if people just put the tryhard hat away for a while.

Na'Vi did not have fun at Dreamhack. After being eliminated early on, they did not attend the player party, did not hang out in the players lounge, went straight to their hotel room and flew home. If you watched their bootcamp videos (yea right), you'd see people not being present while the remaining played other games (LoH plays WoW, Puppey plays DOOM/UT/Warsow/etc). XBOCT discussed his worry regarding team atmosphere, tons of arguments and how they were playing a lot worse than LGD/iG/Zenith (which he speculated would be top 3 at TI2) in his interview with ProDotaRu. Obviously playing in a team is not all sunshine&roses, I don't see how Na'Vi would be an exception. He also talks about how he wishes that the general Russian community in Dota 2 and the ProDotaRu community would "grow up" and "mature".

Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. As a team, it is nigh impossible to not have internal arguments and disagreements will always happen. Bulba (in the newly announced Team Liquid) talked about how EG was incredibly dysfunctional and how he was constantly talked down to by the other players (bar Maelk apparently) on ixmike88's stream the other day.

Five Necrobook might very well be the most tryhard strategy there is. People have no idea how to react - and if you aura-stack for early towers, 5xNecro becomes even more difficult to deal with. Fnatic did 5xNecro against MYM in DCPS (2009-09-08) and was really close to winning. MYM won after winning two team-fights and running past all racks to straight throne. If you want to watch the replay (it's a great game), you'll see how much the game turns once Fnatic picks their Necronomicons up (complete MYM earlygame dominance, it took them 30 minutes+ to gain back control of the game). Link here (6.74).

The word "tryhard" being used negatively is atrocious, of course people are going to try hard. "LOL TRYHARD COUNTERWARDING IN PUBS" is something I see occurring frequently. I've found myself in 3-4-man stacks recently where the main objective is to tryhard as much as possible. Stacking camps, counterwarding everywhere, pooling regen to carries, level 1 5man ganks, TP support early on, smoke ganking, et cetera. We do not tend to counter-pick as most of us random, but it is great fun not that boring.

The thing is, usually when games become a job, the players are also bound to get demoted/fired if they don't meet up to standards, i.e. winning. Being eliminated early on in tournaments repeatedly won't keep the sponsors with them.

See: Contracts

[Lillpapps]

I haven't yet. But I'm about to.

No you just started it all with:

I disagree. When you play to win you are not playing to have fun.

You are so full of shit sometimes its unbelievable.

[Migey]

I very often play a game which I don't enjoy. Therefore, people must not enjoy many of the games they play. I'm enlightened and wise because I admit that I rarely have fun when I play, and playing to win is not fun because I don't think it is. You're just deluding yourself that you are having fun.

Fucking solid syllogistic logic there bro.

Mkay. I absolutely detest cinnamon. Can't stand the stuff. Yet as it so happens, many popular products have cinnamon in them, and people still like cinnamon. But I think it's disgusting. Does that mean that anyone who likes cinnamon is deluding themselves and actually hates it, but is pretending to like it?

No, moron. As it so happens just because I don't like cinnamon doesn't mean people don't like cinnamon. Excuse the basic analogy but your argument isn't substantiated in the slightest. Okay, the above quote was maybe caricaturing you a little, but your last post really did read like that; you state ''playing to win being fun because winning is fun is just an illusion". Where the fuck does that come from? How do you know? Because you dont enjoy playing to win. So what? Does that make it false? Invalid? Unacceptable, evil, morally objectionable? No, it makes it something you don't like which other people so come down off that mighty great horse of yours and accept that what you like and dislike =/= what other people like and dislike.

Also, of course just playing a game doesn't mean you're having fun; and I truly understand this as someone who used to be addicted to certain games and have almost no fun playing them. That was ages ago, and I learnt that, and these days can actually tell when I'm having fun or not, and therefore am able to, if I am not having fun, shut down whatever game I am not enjoying and play another one, or take a leap and step into the great scary outdoor world to do something weird and unnatural like socialise with my fellow human being. Point is, I am capable of determining what I enjoy, and doing what I enjoy, and more importantly, not doing what I do not enjoy. Your inability to do so does not mean that everyone is equally handicapped.

So, you log onto DotA everyday and don't enjoy it? Damn. Heres a tip. Stop. Don't bother. Feel bored? Try League of Legends. Don't like it or have already played that? There's other MOBAs out there. Don't like MOBAs atm? As it turns out theres more then one genre of online game. Try a new MMO, go back to WoW if you don't play that, or if you don't like that idea try RIFT, or countless other options. Don't want to game online? Theres hundreds of single player or online games that don't require communication. Bored of gaming?

THEN FIND A NEW FUCKING HOBBY.

But quit projecting your inability to gain joy from what is supposed to be your entertainment on to us.

[Kuntantee]

You seem to having hard times to differentiate the term of playing competitively and being professional.

-You form a team, join ranked in your spare time and play to win: competitive player.
-You earn money from it and play DotA as a full time job with daily training: professional player.

Now when you consider this perspective, being professional involves obligations and obligations has inverse ratio with fun...Life is full with people who do not enjoy their jobs but somehow keep doing it for whatever reason. I don't see how this is not applicable for DotA. I'm going to guess very few of professional players enjoy the game as much as we do.

[Migey]

I'm not going to disagree because I don't know much about the DotA pro scene.

Does that mean they can't have fun? That they are incapable of doing so?

No.

Although thanks for making that important distinction, because that's an important point; professional =/= competitive.

I admit, not being a professional gamer I can't speak from experience.

But from extensive experience as a competitive one, well, at time it's been a drag and I have not enjoyed it. More often, it's been fucking great!

[Kuntantee]

Actually, gamers are VERY GOOD at playing games that they don't find fun at all. Look at me, I almost never have fun playing DotA and I still log in almost daily.

I think this is a gross generalization. Also you don't enjoy DotA as a professional player and you don't enjoy it as a casual player as well? Not my business but it's time for you to get a new hobby indeed.

[JimPaladin]

It's like I'm actually reading a thread full of League of Legends players.

[Kuntantee]

It's like I'm actually reading a thread full of League of Legends players.

If anything, you will only find LoL haters here

[JimPaladin]

Anyways, I'm really getting a little tired of IcePoop constantly buffing heroes who don't need buffs.

I mean I like Sven and all and he's one of my favorite heroes but why the fuck did he go from "rewarding hard carry" to "get Armlet, MoM and a BKB and 1v5 anything that doesn't have a faceless void in it"? Same with Silencer.

I mean I guess it's not Icefrog's fault as much as the community's considering everyone thought Sven was shitty, then he gets a few unnecessary buffs and suddenly he's picked in every "pro game" this side of the fucking Great Wall.

If anything, you will only find LoL haters here

It's so far above your heads it's in aerospace, isn't it?

[Lysah]

I think this is a gross generalization. Also you don't enjoy DotA as a professional player and you don't enjoy it as a casual player as well? Not my business but it's time for you to get a new hobby indeed.

I think most people don't enjoy it as a hobby, look at how many people come into this thread to complain about this or that game ruined by russians and feeders =)

@longview
I wrote a paragraph about how pro players don't have fun because, in short, it's hard to "just have fun playin' games with your friends" when a million USD is on the line and if your "friend" screws up one spell in one team fight it could cost you everything. When there's more at stake than feeling good about winning it's a lot easier to get upset and a lot of pro teams have fallen apart after a few losses because of people blaming each other. I didn't want to say that in this case because I just don't know the dota2 community but what you posted seems to kind of support this idea :x

Though from what I heard they're doing pretty well still? I haven't seen any indication that one tournament will ruin the team.

Also, counter warding is considered negatively tryhard by a lot of people (myself included) because half the time it's by a CM picker who really does not have the gold to be spending on 18 sets of sentry wards. Dewarding costs your team something and if you're already behind it can actually be the wrong decision. Tryhards don't know this, though, tryhards just do whatever they see on TV because they don't understand the reasoning behind it. Back in the DotA1 days it was right clickers at level 1. It still is, though most people at my MMR have grown past that behavior. There's nothing wrong with trying hard, it's being a tryhard that's the problem.