1. #4781
    Quote Originally Posted by Finear View Post
    in dota 1 it took over a year for even balanced heroes to enter CM
    Yes, that's how it's always worked. There have been heroes that have gone unchanged for a long time before they've been added to -CM. It could still be months or even a year until Silencer, Drow and CW all make it to -CM even if they aren't getting changed further. And then there's friends like Tresdin, Xin, Slark and all the other friends who are yet to get there.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-01-02 at 03:14 PM.



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  2. #4782
    High Overlord Auk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Okay. So explain to me how Magnus isn't better at Enigma at controlling teams. Enigma is pretty much just a walking ulti. Midnight Pulse is rarely a gamebreaking move, Conversions are only so-so at pushing due to low HP (easy to wipe out with any sort of AOE), and Malefice is pretty good but there are better stuns.

    Every single one of Mag's abilities are great. Shockwave is like a better Dragon Slave, Empower is basically free Battle Fury, Skewer is a great positioning/repositioning tool, and as I've already said, Reverse Polarity is more or less like a Black Hole without drawbacks.

    Unless you need someone that can tear up a jungle, why in the fuck would you pick Enigma instead of Magnus? Hell, he doesn't even push as hard because Shockwave and Empower plow right through creeps. Both heroes have useful and varied toolkits, but as far as I can tell the only Enigma has is he's a top tier jungler while Magnus isn't. Also, he's less likely to get banned because pro teams already know Magnus ruins games.
    Enigma is ranged, more versatile, he's one of the fastest junglers in the game, he's great at level 1 Roshan and in fact can even solo Roshan from as early as level ~7, Malefice is the best mini-stun in the game, he can gank 100% more effectively early game, Eidolons are fantastic at pushing early game, etc. Do I need to continue? They're different heroes, they do different things. Magnus isn't great until he gets a Blink Dagger, Enigma can do a lot more early.

    You still can't make a balance argument by comparing two abilities because they do similar things.

  3. #4783
    It's not so much the RP (even though it's ridiculous) but mostly the fact that Skewer doesn't count creeps as counting towards the unit cap (so you can't dodge it in the creep wave) and they buffed the range on it so immensely. At least that's what I think. So there.

  4. #4784
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auk View Post
    Enigma is ranged, more versatile, he's one of the fastest junglers in the game, he's great at level 1 Roshan and in fact can even solo Roshan from as early as level ~7, Malefice is the best mini-stun in the game, he can gank 100% more effectively early game, Eidolons are fantastic at pushing early game, etc. Do I need to continue? They're different heroes, they do different things. Magnus isn't great until he gets a Blink Dagger, Enigma can do a lot more early.

    You still can't make a balance argument by comparing two abilities because they do similar things.
    Enigma can do a lot more early? Such as? You aren't going to land a Black Hole without a ton of help without blink. Malefice is good but it's expensive and most builds pump points into conversions for faster jungling in the early levels so it's only going to proc at most 2 stuns... and casting it can mean a lot of lost jungling time especially if you're out of clarities. Midnight Pulse doesn't even come into play for the first half of the game and I can't remember any games I've seen where it made a big difference.

    Hell, I'd say Shockwave alone outweighs the majority of what Enigma can do early on. It's cheap, has a very short cooldown when maxed, and since it's a linear AOE it can blast right through creep waves and heroes alike. Hell, it can hit targets multiple times if they enter and then re-enter the shockwave line, though I don't know how you'd manage that.

    I dunno man. You can't compare abilities directly but you can compare roles directly and I'd say both Magnus and Enigma are "walking ult" heroes, they're picked because their ults win games. They also have great abilities in addition to those ults, but skewer and malefice can't completely wipe teams for making a momentary positioning mistake like RP/BH can. The only difference is that BH is pretty much straight up worse than RP at level 16... hell, you could probably even make a case at level 11 (one second less stun time but instant vs channeled with larger AOE.)

    ---------- Post added 2013-01-02 at 09:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Yes, that's how it's always worked. There have been heroes that have gone unchanged for a long time before they've been added to -CM. It could still be months or even a year until Silencer, Drow and CW all make it to -CM even if they aren't getting changed further. And then there's friends like Tresdin, Xin, Slark and all the other friends who are yet to get there.
    Why take so long to put heroes in, then? I mean, if they go a month or two without any changes, shouldn't that mean they're ready for play with the big boys?
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  5. #4785
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Why take so long to put heroes in, then? I mean, if they go a month or two without any changes, shouldn't that mean they're ready for play with the big boys?
    Better safe than sorry. This way they can have more certainty that there aren't any not so obvious strategies or interactions that might turn out to be gamebreaking.

    Your Enigma comments again make me wonder if you've ever played this game? Among everything else that is wrong with your post, who the hell maxes Demonic Conversion before Malefice, at least for other purposes than pushing?



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  6. #4786
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycoris View Post
    It's not so much the RP (even though it's ridiculous) but mostly the fact that Skewer doesn't count creeps as counting towards the unit cap (so you can't dodge it in the creep wave) and they buffed the range on it so immensely. At least that's what I think. So there.
    And empower on Tiny, AM or any other melee carry. Oh boy...

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  7. #4787
    Stood in the Fire Rivenda's Avatar
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    Anyone else think they should be a surrender option in Dota 2? You know when you are behind big time at 15 minut played and you can see that there is no way in hell you're gonna make it, why not make an option called surrender and if all 5 on the team agrees then you lose the game and you can queue again after let's say a 5 minut penalty so you don't abuse it. Anyone else have thought of that idea and do you agree?
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  8. #4788
    Legendary! Tommo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivenda View Post
    Anyone else think they should be a surrender option in Dota 2? You know when you are behind big time at 15 minut played and you can see that there is no way in hell you're gonna make it, why not make an option called surrender and if all 5 on the team agrees then you lose the game and you can queue again after let's say a 5 minut penalty so you don't abuse it. Anyone else have thought of that idea and do you agree?
    Its a handy feature to have, and I reckon it should only be avaliable if all 5 players agree, because DOTA is a game where you can comeback from a 20-50 game if you play well enough.

    Btw guys what do you think of arcane boots as early game boots for Sven? (in pubs) I get alot of hate for it but I really find it so useful, Svens mana is appauling, being able to spam stun wins my lanes so easily. And im not in dire need of the bonus damage from other boots that early when I have my ultimate anyway.

  9. #4789
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivenda View Post
    Anyone else think they should be a surrender option in Dota 2? You know when you are behind big time at 15 minut played and you can see that there is no way in hell you're gonna make it, why not make an option called surrender and if all 5 on the team agrees then you lose the game and you can queue again after let's say a 5 minut penalty so you don't abuse it. Anyone else have thought of that idea and do you agree?
    No. I think not having a surrender option is inherently a good thing. Too many times have I read the words "GG fucking noob team cc15". I do not see any advantages other than (on average) shorter games. It puts an emphasis on stats over actually playing, and I find it difficult to see anything positive with people who are going to ruin games after someone doesn't want to forfeit. From my experience, people gave up when they were behind at fifteen minutes in HoN (which was the time limit before you could forfeit). I'm not saying people aren't giving up at fifteen minutes in Dota 2, not at all. A forfeit option would just fuel rage and add nothing of value to the community, in my opinion. Furthermore, adding the option to forfeit kind of drains any fun in playing a late-game carry on either side. The losing carry is useless, but so is the winning carry (as he/she will not have time to get strong enough before enemy team forfeits).

    But then again, since I play mostly inhouses, the general way to do things is to disconnect as soon as your captain calls GG. I just don't see it working out in public games where you play with other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Btw guys what do you think of arcane boots as early game boots for Sven? (in pubs) I get alot of hate for it but I really find it so useful, Svens mana is appauling, being able to spam stun wins my lanes so easily. And im not in dire need of the bonus damage from other boots that early when I have my ultimate anyway.
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  10. #4790
    Legendary! Tommo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    Get a Soul Ring!
    I suppose I could lol, I like arcane boots because they help my support aswell, it lets us spam and rack up kills.

  11. #4791
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    It's simple. She isn't.
    Don't be ridiculous.
    https://dotabuff.com/heroes/winning

    She was middle of the pack before her buffs - why would she suddenly start winning the majority of her games? Since we are reasonable people I hope we can agree that a hero who is expected to win more often than it loses is imbalanced. Even a 55% expected win rate results in a hero being picked/banned every single game, obviously, a hero who wins more than it loses is one you want on your team.

    What makes Drow game breaking is she's impossible to stop now. I've gone mid against her as Invoker and started killing her with cold snap/sun strike as early as level 4. Get her 0-3 before she even hits 6, but once she does, game's over. She retreats to the jungle or gets a support to watch her in her lane (yes, even in mid). She doesn't need levels, she just needs items. And you can't, CAN'T stop her from last hitting when she turns 6. If you stack the lane severely against her, her team can just ward up and she can jungle forever with as little as a mask of death. Even if she was feeding her lane she will emerge at 25 minutes with an item, same farm any other carry would have in a lane that was actually even and she lost horribly. Give her another 20 minutes and she has BKB manta buriza you've lost. Once she hits 16 with those items she's spitting out 1k crits on people with 1600 health and her insane inherent agility gives her all the attack speed she will ever need.

    Pick Drow in a fair game and you will win more than you lose, she is broken right now. They did fix her global aura, whether or not that changes her win rate (doubt it but we'll see) can shape our opinions in the future.


    Also, Enigma is a better hero than Magnus for the first 30 minutes of a game. Magnus exerts very little pressure on any lane, he's just hard to kill and stop from farming. Enigma can jungle absurdly easily and gank lanes at a whim. Black hole is also stronger than RP at 6 and even without MP is a near guaranteed kill if you can get even one ally to help do damage during the stun. Malefice is one of the best stuns in the game, in my opinion. Magnus is great for giving free battlefury to an allied carry and for still being able to farm himself in a lane, after he and his carry get items I would put him above Enigma but for early game pressure he's at a big disadvantage. Let's not forget max rank eidolons can kill lower armor heroes by themselves. Skewer is nice, but the range already got heavily nerfed.

    Honestly, Magnus ruins games because of empower and no other ability. You denied Void any farm in lane, good job, Magnus will just follow him around for the free battlefury and he will farm anyway. Get the support tidehunter to stack ancients about 15 times so void can grab that 4000g mid game and win (of course, ravage chrono RP was a dumb combo anyway).
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-01-02 at 05:43 PM.
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  12. #4792
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    Early game Drow doesnt even need items. Threads and a wraith band and she will be able to chase down anyone really fast.

  13. #4793
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    No. I think not having a surrender option is inherently a good thing. Too many times have I read the words "GG fucking noob team cc15". I do not see any advantages other than (on average) shorter games. It puts an emphasis on stats over actually playing, and I find it difficult to see anything positive with people who are going to ruin games after someone doesn't want to forfeit. From my experience, people gave up when they were behind at fifteen minutes in HoN (which was the time limit before you could forfeit). I'm not saying people aren't giving up at fifteen minutes in Dota 2, not at all. A forfeit option would just fuel rage and add nothing of value to the community, in my opinion. Furthermore, adding the option to forfeit kind of drains any fun in playing a late-game carry on either side. The losing carry is useless, but so is the winning carry (as he/she will not have time to get strong enough before enemy team forfeits).

    But then again, since I play mostly inhouses, the general way to do things is to disconnect as soon as your captain calls GG. I just don't see it working out in public games where you play with other people.
    You're right, at least in my games in Dota 2 the amount of people who give up prematurely and sit at fountain is really small, maybe happens in 1/20 games if not fewer. In HoN it was every other game. Another thing that fueled it was the public stats in HoN, people wanted to stop trying early so their KD wouldn't suffer from failed attempts at a comeback. And nobody would man up and leave because they were afraid their teammates would feed with their hero and harm their precious KD.

    How obsessed people were over their stats kind of shows in how rare leavers were in HoN in contrast to the base-afkers that were in what felt like every or every other game, even HoN system allowed you to leave like 5% of your games without punishment. At one point I realized I could leave over a hundred games without consequence and started abusing that everytime someone in my team picked Scout.

    Though I feel like there should be a legitimate way to forfeit when you're queuing as 5.



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  14. #4794
    DR in lane is a free kill(together with support hero), did she retreat to jungle? Counter ward and constantly harass her farm. She dares to fight back? Get more free kills. She needs 1, 2 hero constantly baby sit her if you really want to keep her alive which is not a great idea. Drow ranger requires way more commitment from her team mates compared to other carries which is her downside.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    She was middle of the pack before her buffs
    You are stating the obvious. She gain few points on W/L ratings because...well...she got buffed? That doesn't imply she's OP.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2013-01-02 at 05:58 PM.

  15. #4795
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    DR in lane is a free kill, did she retreat to jungle? Counter ward and constantly harass her farm. She dares to fight back? Get more free kills. She needs 2, 3 hero constantly baby sit her if you really want to keep her alive which is not a great idea.
    Don't pretend like you can just counter ward and smoke and she's free kills. She has 4 allies, too, and they can easily afford to sit in the river and protect her while she farms and your team wastes all of its time trying to gank. She has 625 range, silence, and huge damage and is much less of a free kill than many other heroes. If you've never tried to gank drow just to eat silence and be 4 shotted, I don't know what to tell you, that's what this hero is capable of. Give her one stunner for a teammate and she can take a 3 man gank and kill two of them.

    Again, we're assuming a fair game here, not a Drow with no actual skill.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-01-02 at 05:54 PM.
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  16. #4796
    Epic!
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    Everyone is balanced, just ward their jungle

  17. #4797
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Though I feel like there should be a legitimate way to forfeit when you're queuing as 5.
    I agree wholeheartedly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaitoc View Post
    Everyone is balanced, just ward their jungle
    gank their lane you will be fine

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  18. #4798
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Don't be ridiculous.
    https://dotabuff.com/heroes/winning

    She was middle of the pack before her buffs - why would she suddenly start winning the majority of her games? Since we are reasonable people I hope we can agree that a hero who is expected to win more often than it loses is imbalanced. Even a 55% expected win rate results in a hero being picked/banned every single game, obviously, a hero who wins more than it loses is one you want on your team.

    What makes Drow game breaking is she's impossible to stop now. I've gone mid against her as Invoker and started killing her with cold snap/sun strike as early as level 4. Get her 0-3 before she even hits 6, but once she does, game's over. She retreats to the jungle or gets a support to watch her in her lane (yes, even in mid). She doesn't need levels, she just needs items. And you can't, CAN'T stop her from last hitting when she turns 6. If you stack the lane severely against her, her team can just ward up and she can jungle forever with as little as a mask of death. Even if she was feeding her lane she will emerge at 25 minutes with an item, same farm any other carry would have in a lane that was actually even and she lost horribly. Give her another 20 minutes and she has BKB manta buriza you've lost. Once she hits 16 with those items she's spitting out 1k crits on people with 1600 health and her insane inherent agility gives her all the attack speed she will ever need.

    Pick Drow in a fair game and you will win more than you lose, she is broken right now. They did fix her global aura, whether or not that changes her win rate (doubt it but we'll see) can shape our opinions in the future.
    I can't really say I agree with parts of that, but I can't really make a good discussion out of that so I doubt I'd convince you anyway. You could have had a bit more updated link though: https://dotabuff.com/heroes/winning?date=patch_6.77 and I'm pretty sure it's gone down since last I checked.

    Right now Drow doesn't even have that much more than she had before she was changed. Some more agility if you can stay at range, TSA is better mid-late but worse before 6. Still susceptible to getting focused, still brings little to teamfights and ganks aside from silence and autoattacks.



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  19. #4799
    When she kills people in 3 hits that take a little over a second to fire, bringing silence is already too much. If you really think that winning against her is so easy as stacking your ENTIRE TEAM to harass her, why do you think that a drow picker forcing you to play, as a team, in a certain way is not broken? Does any other hero do that? Furthermore, the drow picker's team will expect you to constantly hound her, and they can easily play accordingly and set up counter ganks on you all day.

    Forcing people to play a certain way just to remain in the game is something I consider broken. When your enemy is predictable they've already lost.

    I guess next we can argue that SB is a bad hero because two stuns a huge movespeed aura and mapewide ganks at level 5 are so easy to counter. Having all 5 of your teammates grouped up roaming the map but still also farming is as easy as snapping your fingers in doters.

    Every strategy you think you can come up with CAN be dealt with by Drow's team. The game is still 5v5, after all, and she will be even stronger than any other hypercarry at level 6 with a silence and twice the damage of a hero like AM.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-01-02 at 06:08 PM.
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  20. #4800
    I do hope you're not responding to me, because in that case you'd be responding to a number of things I don't think I've said or implied.

    I wasn't sure if I wanted to be dragged into this discussion so I was merely pointing out some more updated statistics and that her current state isn't as far from her 6.75 form as it used to be before the TSA changes.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-01-02 at 06:13 PM.



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