You still can't make a balance argument by comparing two abilities because they do similar things.
Hell, I'd say Shockwave alone outweighs the majority of what Enigma can do early on. It's cheap, has a very short cooldown when maxed, and since it's a linear AOE it can blast right through creep waves and heroes alike. Hell, it can hit targets multiple times if they enter and then re-enter the shockwave line, though I don't know how you'd manage that.
I dunno man. You can't compare abilities directly but you can compare roles directly and I'd say both Magnus and Enigma are "walking ult" heroes, they're picked because their ults win games. They also have great abilities in addition to those ults, but skewer and malefice can't completely wipe teams for making a momentary positioning mistake like RP/BH can. The only difference is that BH is pretty much straight up worse than RP at level 16... hell, you could probably even make a case at level 11 (one second less stun time but instant vs channeled with larger AOE.)
---------- Post added 2013-01-02 at 09:16 AM ----------
Your Enigma comments again make me wonder if you've ever played this game? Among everything else that is wrong with your post, who the hell maxes Demonic Conversion before Malefice, at least for other purposes than pushing?
Anyone else think they should be a surrender option in Dota 2? You know when you are behind big time at 15 minut played and you can see that there is no way in hell you're gonna make it, why not make an option called surrender and if all 5 on the team agrees then you lose the game and you can queue again after let's say a 5 minut penalty so you don't abuse it. Anyone else have thought of that idea and do you agree?
Oderint dum metuat.Success is dependent on effort.
Btw guys what do you think of arcane boots as early game boots for Sven? (in pubs) I get alot of hate for it but I really find it so useful, Svens mana is appauling, being able to spam stun wins my lanes so easily. And im not in dire need of the bonus damage from other boots that early when I have my ultimate anyway.
But then again, since I play mostly inhouses, the general way to do things is to disconnect as soon as your captain calls GG. I just don't see it working out in public games where you play with other people.
She was middle of the pack before her buffs - why would she suddenly start winning the majority of her games? Since we are reasonable people I hope we can agree that a hero who is expected to win more often than it loses is imbalanced. Even a 55% expected win rate results in a hero being picked/banned every single game, obviously, a hero who wins more than it loses is one you want on your team.
What makes Drow game breaking is she's impossible to stop now. I've gone mid against her as Invoker and started killing her with cold snap/sun strike as early as level 4. Get her 0-3 before she even hits 6, but once she does, game's over. She retreats to the jungle or gets a support to watch her in her lane (yes, even in mid). She doesn't need levels, she just needs items. And you can't, CAN'T stop her from last hitting when she turns 6. If you stack the lane severely against her, her team can just ward up and she can jungle forever with as little as a mask of death. Even if she was feeding her lane she will emerge at 25 minutes with an item, same farm any other carry would have in a lane that was actually even and she lost horribly. Give her another 20 minutes and she has BKB manta buriza you've lost. Once she hits 16 with those items she's spitting out 1k crits on people with 1600 health and her insane inherent agility gives her all the attack speed she will ever need.
Pick Drow in a fair game and you will win more than you lose, she is broken right now. They did fix her global aura, whether or not that changes her win rate (doubt it but we'll see) can shape our opinions in the future.
Also, Enigma is a better hero than Magnus for the first 30 minutes of a game. Magnus exerts very little pressure on any lane, he's just hard to kill and stop from farming. Enigma can jungle absurdly easily and gank lanes at a whim. Black hole is also stronger than RP at 6 and even without MP is a near guaranteed kill if you can get even one ally to help do damage during the stun. Malefice is one of the best stuns in the game, in my opinion. Magnus is great for giving free battlefury to an allied carry and for still being able to farm himself in a lane, after he and his carry get items I would put him above Enigma but for early game pressure he's at a big disadvantage. Let's not forget max rank eidolons can kill lower armor heroes by themselves. Skewer is nice, but the range already got heavily nerfed.
Honestly, Magnus ruins games because of empower and no other ability. You denied Void any farm in lane, good job, Magnus will just follow him around for the free battlefury and he will farm anyway. Get the support tidehunter to stack ancients about 15 times so void can grab that 4000g mid game and win (of course, ravage chrono RP was a dumb combo anyway).
Last edited by Lysah; 2013-01-02 at 05:43 PM.
Early game Drow doesnt even need items. Threads and a wraith band and she will be able to chase down anyone really fast.
How obsessed people were over their stats kind of shows in how rare leavers were in HoN in contrast to the base-afkers that were in what felt like every or every other game, even HoN system allowed you to leave like 5% of your games without punishment. At one point I realized I could leave over a hundred games without consequence and started abusing that everytime someone in my team picked Scout.
Though I feel like there should be a legitimate way to forfeit when you're queuing as 5.
DR in lane is a free kill(together with support hero), did she retreat to jungle? Counter ward and constantly harass her farm. She dares to fight back? Get more free kills. She needs 1, 2 hero constantly baby sit her if you really want to keep her alive which is not a great idea. Drow ranger requires way more commitment from her team mates compared to other carries which is her downside.
Last edited by Kuntantee; 2013-01-02 at 05:58 PM.
Again, we're assuming a fair game here, not a Drow with no actual skill.
Last edited by Lysah; 2013-01-02 at 05:54 PM.
Everyone is balanced, just ward their jungle
https://dotabuff.com/heroes/winning?date=patch_6.77 and I'm pretty sure it's gone down since last I checked.
Right now Drow doesn't even have that much more than she had before she was changed. Some more agility if you can stay at range, TSA is better mid-late but worse before 6. Still susceptible to getting focused, still brings little to teamfights and ganks aside from silence and autoattacks.
When she kills people in 3 hits that take a little over a second to fire, bringing silence is already too much. If you really think that winning against her is so easy as stacking your ENTIRE TEAM to harass her, why do you think that a drow picker forcing you to play, as a team, in a certain way is not broken? Does any other hero do that? Furthermore, the drow picker's team will expect you to constantly hound her, and they can easily play accordingly and set up counter ganks on you all day.
Forcing people to play a certain way just to remain in the game is something I consider broken. When your enemy is predictable they've already lost.
I guess next we can argue that SB is a bad hero because two stuns a huge movespeed aura and mapewide ganks at level 5 are so easy to counter. Having all 5 of your teammates grouped up roaming the map but still also farming is as easy as snapping your fingers in doters.
Every strategy you think you can come up with CAN be dealt with by Drow's team. The game is still 5v5, after all, and she will be even stronger than any other hypercarry at level 6 with a silence and twice the damage of a hero like AM.
Last edited by Lysah; 2013-01-02 at 06:08 PM.
I do hope you're not responding to me, because in that case you'd be responding to a number of things I don't think I've said or implied.
I wasn't sure if I wanted to be dragged into this discussion so I was merely pointing out some more updated statistics and that her current state isn't as far from her 6.75 form as it used to be before the TSA changes.