1. #4741
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Why take so long to put heroes in, then? I mean, if they go a month or two without any changes, shouldn't that mean they're ready for play with the big boys?
    Better safe than sorry. This way they can have more certainty that there aren't any not so obvious strategies or interactions that might turn out to be gamebreaking.

    Your Enigma comments again make me wonder if you've ever played this game? Among everything else that is wrong with your post, who the hell maxes Demonic Conversion before Malefice, at least for other purposes than pushing?

  2. #4742
    Brewmaster juzalol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lycoris View Post
    It's not so much the RP (even though it's ridiculous) but mostly the fact that Skewer doesn't count creeps as counting towards the unit cap (so you can't dodge it in the creep wave) and they buffed the range on it so immensely. At least that's what I think. So there.
    And empower on Tiny, AM or any other melee carry. Oh boy...

    If Magnus for some reason doesn't get banned I don't see any reason why you shouldn't
    first pick him in captains mode.

  3. #4743
    Stood in the Fire Rivenda's Avatar
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    Anyone else think they should be a surrender option in Dota 2? You know when you are behind big time at 15 minut played and you can see that there is no way in hell you're gonna make it, why not make an option called surrender and if all 5 on the team agrees then you lose the game and you can queue again after let's say a 5 minut penalty so you don't abuse it. Anyone else have thought of that idea and do you agree?
    Oderint dum metuat.
    Success is dependent on effort.

  4. #4744
    Quote Originally Posted by Rivenda View Post
    Anyone else think they should be a surrender option in Dota 2? You know when you are behind big time at 15 minut played and you can see that there is no way in hell you're gonna make it, why not make an option called surrender and if all 5 on the team agrees then you lose the game and you can queue again after let's say a 5 minut penalty so you don't abuse it. Anyone else have thought of that idea and do you agree?
    No. I think not having a surrender option is inherently a good thing. Too many times have I read the words "GG fucking noob team cc15". I do not see any advantages other than (on average) shorter games. It puts an emphasis on stats over actually playing, and I find it difficult to see anything positive with people who are going to ruin games after someone doesn't want to forfeit. From my experience, people gave up when they were behind at fifteen minutes in HoN (which was the time limit before you could forfeit). I'm not saying people aren't giving up at fifteen minutes in Dota 2, not at all. A forfeit option would just fuel rage and add nothing of value to the community, in my opinion. Furthermore, adding the option to forfeit kind of drains any fun in playing a late-game carry on either side. The losing carry is useless, but so is the winning carry (as he/she will not have time to get strong enough before enemy team forfeits).

    But then again, since I play mostly inhouses, the general way to do things is to disconnect as soon as your captain calls GG. I just don't see it working out in public games where you play with other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Btw guys what do you think of arcane boots as early game boots for Sven? (in pubs) I get alot of hate for it but I really find it so useful, Svens mana is appauling, being able to spam stun wins my lanes so easily. And im not in dire need of the bonus damage from other boots that early when I have my ultimate anyway.
    Get a Soul Ring!

  5. #4745
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    It's simple. She isn't.
    Don't be ridiculous.
    https://dotabuff.com/heroes/winning

    She was middle of the pack before her buffs - why would she suddenly start winning the majority of her games? Since we are reasonable people I hope we can agree that a hero who is expected to win more often than it loses is imbalanced. Even a 55% expected win rate results in a hero being picked/banned every single game, obviously, a hero who wins more than it loses is one you want on your team.

    What makes Drow game breaking is she's impossible to stop now. I've gone mid against her as Invoker and started killing her with cold snap/sun strike as early as level 4. Get her 0-3 before she even hits 6, but once she does, game's over. She retreats to the jungle or gets a support to watch her in her lane (yes, even in mid). She doesn't need levels, she just needs items. And you can't, CAN'T stop her from last hitting when she turns 6. If you stack the lane severely against her, her team can just ward up and she can jungle forever with as little as a mask of death. Even if she was feeding her lane she will emerge at 25 minutes with an item, same farm any other carry would have in a lane that was actually even and she lost horribly. Give her another 20 minutes and she has BKB manta buriza you've lost. Once she hits 16 with those items she's spitting out 1k crits on people with 1600 health and her insane inherent agility gives her all the attack speed she will ever need.

    Pick Drow in a fair game and you will win more than you lose, she is broken right now. They did fix her global aura, whether or not that changes her win rate (doubt it but we'll see) can shape our opinions in the future.


    Also, Enigma is a better hero than Magnus for the first 30 minutes of a game. Magnus exerts very little pressure on any lane, he's just hard to kill and stop from farming. Enigma can jungle absurdly easily and gank lanes at a whim. Black hole is also stronger than RP at 6 and even without MP is a near guaranteed kill if you can get even one ally to help do damage during the stun. Malefice is one of the best stuns in the game, in my opinion. Magnus is great for giving free battlefury to an allied carry and for still being able to farm himself in a lane, after he and his carry get items I would put him above Enigma but for early game pressure he's at a big disadvantage. Let's not forget max rank eidolons can kill lower armor heroes by themselves. Skewer is nice, but the range already got heavily nerfed.

    Honestly, Magnus ruins games because of empower and no other ability. You denied Void any farm in lane, good job, Magnus will just follow him around for the free battlefury and he will farm anyway. Get the support tidehunter to stack ancients about 15 times so void can grab that 4000g mid game and win (of course, ravage chrono RP was a dumb combo anyway).
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-01-02 at 05:43 PM.

  6. #4746
    Early game Drow doesnt even need items. Threads and a wraith band and she will be able to chase down anyone really fast.

  7. #4747
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    No. I think not having a surrender option is inherently a good thing. Too many times have I read the words "GG fucking noob team cc15". I do not see any advantages other than (on average) shorter games. It puts an emphasis on stats over actually playing, and I find it difficult to see anything positive with people who are going to ruin games after someone doesn't want to forfeit. From my experience, people gave up when they were behind at fifteen minutes in HoN (which was the time limit before you could forfeit). I'm not saying people aren't giving up at fifteen minutes in Dota 2, not at all. A forfeit option would just fuel rage and add nothing of value to the community, in my opinion. Furthermore, adding the option to forfeit kind of drains any fun in playing a late-game carry on either side. The losing carry is useless, but so is the winning carry (as he/she will not have time to get strong enough before enemy team forfeits).

    But then again, since I play mostly inhouses, the general way to do things is to disconnect as soon as your captain calls GG. I just don't see it working out in public games where you play with other people.
    You're right, at least in my games in Dota 2 the amount of people who give up prematurely and sit at fountain is really small, maybe happens in 1/20 games if not fewer. In HoN it was every other game. Another thing that fueled it was the public stats in HoN, people wanted to stop trying early so their KD wouldn't suffer from failed attempts at a comeback. And nobody would man up and leave because they were afraid their teammates would feed with their hero and harm their precious KD.

    How obsessed people were over their stats kind of shows in how rare leavers were in HoN in contrast to the base-afkers that were in what felt like every or every other game, even HoN system allowed you to leave like 5% of your games without punishment. At one point I realized I could leave over a hundred games without consequence and started abusing that everytime someone in my team picked Scout.

    Though I feel like there should be a legitimate way to forfeit when you're queuing as 5.

  8. #4748
    DR in lane is a free kill(together with support hero), did she retreat to jungle? Counter ward and constantly harass her farm. She dares to fight back? Get more free kills. She needs 1, 2 hero constantly baby sit her if you really want to keep her alive which is not a great idea. Drow ranger requires way more commitment from her team mates compared to other carries which is her downside.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    She was middle of the pack before her buffs
    You are stating the obvious. She gain few points on W/L ratings because...well...she got buffed? That doesn't imply she's OP.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2013-01-02 at 05:58 PM.

  9. #4749
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    DR in lane is a free kill, did she retreat to jungle? Counter ward and constantly harass her farm. She dares to fight back? Get more free kills. She needs 2, 3 hero constantly baby sit her if you really want to keep her alive which is not a great idea.
    Don't pretend like you can just counter ward and smoke and she's free kills. She has 4 allies, too, and they can easily afford to sit in the river and protect her while she farms and your team wastes all of its time trying to gank. She has 625 range, silence, and huge damage and is much less of a free kill than many other heroes. If you've never tried to gank drow just to eat silence and be 4 shotted, I don't know what to tell you, that's what this hero is capable of. Give her one stunner for a teammate and she can take a 3 man gank and kill two of them.

    Again, we're assuming a fair game here, not a Drow with no actual skill.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-01-02 at 05:54 PM.

  10. #4750
    Deleted
    Everyone is balanced, just ward their jungle

  11. #4751
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Though I feel like there should be a legitimate way to forfeit when you're queuing as 5.
    I agree wholeheartedly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaitoc View Post
    Everyone is balanced, just ward their jungle
    gank their lane you will be fine

  12. #4752
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Don't be ridiculous.
    https://dotabuff.com/heroes/winning

    She was middle of the pack before her buffs - why would she suddenly start winning the majority of her games? Since we are reasonable people I hope we can agree that a hero who is expected to win more often than it loses is imbalanced. Even a 55% expected win rate results in a hero being picked/banned every single game, obviously, a hero who wins more than it loses is one you want on your team.

    What makes Drow game breaking is she's impossible to stop now. I've gone mid against her as Invoker and started killing her with cold snap/sun strike as early as level 4. Get her 0-3 before she even hits 6, but once she does, game's over. She retreats to the jungle or gets a support to watch her in her lane (yes, even in mid). She doesn't need levels, she just needs items. And you can't, CAN'T stop her from last hitting when she turns 6. If you stack the lane severely against her, her team can just ward up and she can jungle forever with as little as a mask of death. Even if she was feeding her lane she will emerge at 25 minutes with an item, same farm any other carry would have in a lane that was actually even and she lost horribly. Give her another 20 minutes and she has BKB manta buriza you've lost. Once she hits 16 with those items she's spitting out 1k crits on people with 1600 health and her insane inherent agility gives her all the attack speed she will ever need.

    Pick Drow in a fair game and you will win more than you lose, she is broken right now. They did fix her global aura, whether or not that changes her win rate (doubt it but we'll see) can shape our opinions in the future.
    I can't really say I agree with parts of that, but I can't really make a good discussion out of that so I doubt I'd convince you anyway. You could have had a bit more updated link though: https://dotabuff.com/heroes/winning?date=patch_6.77 and I'm pretty sure it's gone down since last I checked.

    Right now Drow doesn't even have that much more than she had before she was changed. Some more agility if you can stay at range, TSA is better mid-late but worse before 6. Still susceptible to getting focused, still brings little to teamfights and ganks aside from silence and autoattacks.

  13. #4753
    When she kills people in 3 hits that take a little over a second to fire, bringing silence is already too much. If you really think that winning against her is so easy as stacking your ENTIRE TEAM to harass her, why do you think that a drow picker forcing you to play, as a team, in a certain way is not broken? Does any other hero do that? Furthermore, the drow picker's team will expect you to constantly hound her, and they can easily play accordingly and set up counter ganks on you all day.

    Forcing people to play a certain way just to remain in the game is something I consider broken. When your enemy is predictable they've already lost.

    I guess next we can argue that SB is a bad hero because two stuns a huge movespeed aura and mapewide ganks at level 5 are so easy to counter. Having all 5 of your teammates grouped up roaming the map but still also farming is as easy as snapping your fingers in doters.

    Every strategy you think you can come up with CAN be dealt with by Drow's team. The game is still 5v5, after all, and she will be even stronger than any other hypercarry at level 6 with a silence and twice the damage of a hero like AM.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-01-02 at 06:08 PM.

  14. #4754
    I do hope you're not responding to me, because in that case you'd be responding to a number of things I don't think I've said or implied.

    I wasn't sure if I wanted to be dragged into this discussion so I was merely pointing out some more updated statistics and that her current state isn't as far from her 6.75 form as it used to be before the TSA changes.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-01-02 at 06:13 PM.

  15. #4755
    Drow was overpowered when she had the global aura, but now she is back the way she was with more damage. She is still probably the easiest hero to gank in the entire game and she just doesn't fare well since the meta is not 4 protect 1. She will get wrecked in a competitive game of any degree.

  16. #4756
    Just finishing my thoughts on the matter. But to respond to you directly, what does any other carry bring to the table? AM has auto attacks and mobility, considered a top pick. PL extremely susceptible to AoE, considered a top pick. Sure, these two heroes can escape a gank better, but why let Drow be ganked in the first place? She will outfarm both of them in the jungle.

    @Poppasan
    I'll have to restate my position on balancing a game played by millions around matches played by 50 - let's not do it. 80% win rate by the 99% and 5% winrate by the 1% does not make for a fun hero. I also highly doubt she would not keep an even winrate in tourneys if people started playing their team around her.

  17. #4757
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    She has 4 allies, too, and they can easily afford to sit in the river and protect her while she farms and your team wastes all of its time trying to gank.
    Okay new PRO start? 4 allies protecting Drow Ranger? Don't be hilarious. What you write is wasting all team resource over protecting drow by the time she got her items you would lose raxes in two lanes. Not to mention a free farmed void can kill her in 1 Chronosphere time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    If you've never tried to gank drow just to eat silence and be 4 shotted, I don't know what to tell you
    What? 4 shots? That's not possible unless heroes are ganking naked. You are exaggerating her damage. It's strong but not that strong. I play against Drow every other game and I've never seen her 4 shotting people without items.

    Your entire strategy depends on support of drow making the opener, drow is picking kills up but that's not possible in practice. If you counter ward all the time, you will be harrassing her farm effectively. Or you could just ignore her and push the lanes while she's farming and her team mates are wasting their time with protecting her. Until she makes her way to pro scene(need more observation), I will just consider her not OP because of her drawbacks.
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2013-01-02 at 06:23 PM.

  18. #4758
    @Lysah I am sorry but I do not think I understand. What I do grasp from what you said is that balancing should be done based on the public games instead of the pro games. Is this correct? I am very sorry since English isn't my first language.

  19. #4759
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    Okay new PRO start? 4 allies protecting Drow Ranger? Don't be hilarious. What you write is wasting all team resource over protecting drow by the time she got her items you would lose raxes in two lanes. Not to mention a free farmed void can kill anybody in 1 Chronosphere time.
    Using arguments that apply to any hero doesn't really convince me.

    @Poppasan
    Both, ideally. If that isn't possible then yes, I would prefer they balance heroes around the actual game and not the esports scene. DotA should not be a game you download just so you can watch replays. Lastly, many heroes who are balanced around pubs (ursa) are rarely, if ever, picked in tourneys at all, despite how good they are (or not).

  20. #4760
    Icefrog has stated that balance around the actual game will never happen.

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