1. #6881
    Quote Originally Posted by yesty375 View Post
    why is that some people don't appreciate the role of supports. just like saying they have the easiest task and the difference between top-tier and terrible support players is very small? smh
    "in lane"
    It's almost like context is some kind of magical thing.

  2. #6882
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    I really should not just klick on links, you scared the shit out of me

  3. #6883
    Quote Originally Posted by Okuu View Post
    "in lane"
    It's almost like context is some kind of magical thing.
    I think I said "early game" but yeah.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  4. #6884
    I have a question.If you stack crystalys and javelin can both proc at the same time or does one proc override another?

  5. #6885
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    I have a question.If you stack crystalys and javelin can both proc at the same time or does one proc override another?
    Since it's just an item proc, like Basher, I'd assume it's fine.
    Even if Javelin was a crit (which it isn't), crit sort-of-stacks, but can't proc on the same hit.

  6. #6886
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    I have a question.If you stack crystalys and javelin can both proc at the same time or does one proc override another?
    Piercing is calculated separately from critical strike. An attack can both crit and pierce simultaneously. The piercing bonus damage does not crit, and is just added on top.

    edit: playdota thread on order of damage calculations if you seek further information
    Last edited by Longview; 2013-03-15 at 11:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    people who smoke weed past primary school dont deserve jobs.

    weed is for little kids. you should stop smoking it and move on to real people things

  7. #6887
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    Piercing is calculated separately from critical strike. An attack can both crit and pierce simultaneously. The piercing bonus damage does not crit, and is just added on top.

    edit: playdota thread on order of damage calculations if you seek further information
    ty to both,nice thread

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-16 at 01:41 AM ----------

    I'm currently trying to figure out which is better,attack speed or damage.Anyone has some thoughts on this?
    Last edited by ZRebellion; 2013-03-16 at 12:42 AM.

  8. #6888
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    I'm currently trying to figure out which is better,attack speed or damage.Anyone has some thoughts on this?
    There's no simple answer, it always depends on your hero and previous items. Like in WoW how between expansions and tiers players need to recalculate if gear has enough int that gemming haste is better, or if the value of combat ratings is low enough to keep gemming int. I've had a lot of people who seemed to love always gemming full haste ask me for help, and it wasn't always easy to convince them that it's not the best choice.

    If you look at a hero like Shadow Fiend or especially Tiny you see that they innately get a lot of damage from their skills, so if you wanted to cost-efficiently increase their DPS, so to speak, you'd get IAS. If you have a hero like Sniper you might think that you only have to build IAS so you headshot more often, but that's only good to a certain point. Most of the time, you'll want to balance your IAS and damage, though if you want to gamble your game on big crits on PA then by all means build for damage.

    For approximation, consider that whenever your IAS is above 0 (=whenever you attack speed isn't being reduced drastically) every 100 IAS gives you ~0.6 more attacks per second. On a 1.7 base attack time hero (=most of them) every 100 IAS makes you BAT go from 1.7 to 0.85, 0.57, 0.42 to a minimum of 0.34. You'll notice that going from 0 to 100 IAS makes a huge difference, but going from 300 to 400 isn't that much. So you have your 300 damage SF with maybe 60 attack speed from agility? Maybe AC would be better than that MKB. Your Sniper has Mjölnir and AC and Manta and attacks 2,5 times per second but only for 130 damage? Maybe you should throw in a Desolator.

    edit: I forgot the most important exception. Alchemist in rank 3 ulti form has 1.0 base attack time, which is why it's not only acceptable but mandatory to go full attack speed alchemist. Nothing is better than going all clinkclonkclinkclinkclinkclonkclinkclonkclonkclonkclinkclocnkclinkclinkclonk on your enemy.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-03-16 at 04:07 AM.
    Manni of Paragon. Moderator of Dota 2 subforum - The golden rule: Listen to Lysah. Seriously.

  9. #6889
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    There's no simple answer, it always depends on your hero and previous items. Like in WoW how between expansions and tiers players need to recalculate if gear has enough int that gemming haste is better, or if the value or combat ratings is low enough to keep gemming int. I've had a lot of people who seemed to love always gemming full haste ask me for help, and it wasn't always easy to convince them that it's not the best choice.

    If you look at hero like Shadow Fiend or especially Tiny you see that they innately get a lot of damage from their skills, so if you wanted to cost-efficiently increase their DPS, so to speak, you'd get IAS. If you have a hero like Sniper you might think that you only have to build IAS so you headshot more often, but that's only good to a certain point. Most of the time, you'll want to balance your IAS and damage though if you want to gamble your game on big crits on PA then by all means build for damage.

    For approximation, consider that whenever you IAS is above 0 (= whenever you attack speed isn't being reduced drastically) every 100 IAS gives you ~0.6 more attacks per second. On a 1.7 base attack time hero (=most of them) every 100 IAS makes you BAT go from 1.7 to 0.85, 0.57, 0.42 to a minimum of 0.34. You'll notice that going from 0 to 100 IAS is a huge difference, but going from 300 to 400 isn't that much. So you have your 300 damage SF with maybe 60 attack speed from agility? Maybe AC would be better than that MKB. Your Sniper has Mjölnir and AC and Manta but still hits for maybe 130 damage? Maybe you should throw in a Desolator.
    Good.I was getting to the same place.
    Due to the various movements in fights I do think it might be better to have a higher IAS.Like it has some kind of extra subtle value.
    But then again stuff like the stout shield like flat damage reduction undermines IAS.
    I wonder if there are a lot of flat damage reductions in the game?
    Just some thoughts.

  10. #6890
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    Good.I was getting to the same place.
    Due to the various movements in fights I do think it might be better to have a higher IAS.Like it has some kind of extra subtle value.
    But then again stuff like the stout shield like flat damage reduction undermines IAS.
    I wonder if there are a lot of flat damage reductions in the game?
    Just some thoughts.
    For damage reductions there's just Stout, PMS, Vanguard and Treant's healing thing, though I may be forgetting something. And extra-high IAS against Centaur might not be a good idea. And Vanguard seems to be a much rarer sight now than it was before they added Tranquil Boots.

    edit: aaaaand Kraken Shell! Knew I shouldn't trust my memory.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-03-16 at 02:04 AM.
    Manni of Paragon. Moderator of Dota 2 subforum - The golden rule: Listen to Lysah. Seriously.

  11. #6891
    Quote Originally Posted by hailey View Post
    This thread has been cancerous for a very long time and Lysah has consistently bad opinions backed up by "I am the best dota player ever" even claiming to be better than all competitive players ever and a smarter drafter than every captain out there
    She's the greatest mind of DotA.

    ----

    Was trying to catch up the thread, it seems no interesting discussion occurred since I left!

    one question: trax in cm?
    Last edited by Kuntantee; 2013-03-16 at 02:06 AM.

  12. #6892
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuntantee View Post
    She's the greatest strategical mind in gaming.
    Fixed that one up for you, mate.

  13. #6893
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    For damage reductions there's just Stout, PMS, Vanguard and Treant's healing thing, though I may be forgetting something. And extra-high IAS against Centaur might not be a good idea. And Vanguard seems to be a much rarer sight now than it was before they added Tranquil Boots.

    edit: aaaaand Kraken Shell! Knew I shouldn't trust my memory.
    I get why that would be a bad idea lol.
    I know vanguards and stout shields or the likes don't stack their block damage but do they do with a spell like the one treant has?
    Did some googling and didn't find an answer on that :<

  14. #6894
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    I know vanguards and stout shields or the likes don't stack their block damage but do they do with a spell like the one treant has?
    Only one instance of damage block can occur at one time. The last acquired source of damage block will proc first, and only if it does not block are any others rolled. Items from when they are picked up or bought, skills starting at level one. The buff overrides them all, given that you didn't pick up a stout shield or spec Kraken Shell after the buff was placed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immitis View Post
    people who smoke weed past primary school dont deserve jobs.

    weed is for little kids. you should stop smoking it and move on to real people things

  15. #6895
    High Overlord Ragu4's Avatar
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    While I can understand that when my team random's and 3 of them pick hard carries, I don't get mad, just bad roll of the dice. But when there's clearly a Drow, Weaver and Clinkz, MAYBE you should adapt and pick a more support roll. Nope, Medusa. I don't mind playing support, I just don't mind being forced into it. I tend to KS anyway with Lich ult.

  16. #6896
    Quote Originally Posted by Longview View Post
    Only one instance of damage block can occur at one time. The last acquired source of damage block will proc first, and only if it does not block are any others rolled. Items from when they are picked up or bought, skills starting at level one. The buff overrides them all, given that you didn't pick up a stout shield or spec Kraken Shell after the buff was placed.
    Aight.For anyone interested it seems that agaisnt a melee hero with vanguard that around 140 damage more attack speed gives more dps then more damage and before this value it gives less.

    edit: Meh,seems bad to just pull numbers out of my ass so that's my formula so people can possible correct me.

    I used a table with 1,7 base attack time.
    Y1 is with random DMG
    Y2 is random DMG minus 50DMG with an APS from a BAT+50IAS to create a ''+50dmg versus +50attack speed'' comparison.

    Y1=(0.58823.X)-23.5292
    ~(APS x DMG) - (APS x vanguard block DMG)
    Y2=(0.8824.(X-50))-35.296
    ~(APS x (DMG-50DMG)) - (new APS x vanguard block DMG)

    edit :
    Having read this reddit thread http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/14hy72/math/
    I understand why I also came to the value of 100dmg at which more attack speed gives more dps.(not counting block)
    But actually from the thread apparently what's right is to always have damage 100 higher then AS for AS to be more efficient.
    Most of you probably already knew this though.
    Last edited by ZRebellion; 2013-03-16 at 04:46 AM.

  17. #6897
    Quote Originally Posted by Okuu View Post
    Fixed that one up for you, mate.
    I don't know, DotA is kind of my specialty.
    Win and live. Lose and die.
    Rule of life. No change rule.
    Running worse than losing.
    Random casual stuff now


  18. #6898
    I'm kind of confused.When reading a tooltip in game of a hero lvl1 I see ''attack speed:114 (1,49s per attack)''.
    But a hero with a BAT of 1,7 and 114 attack speed should be hitting every 0,79s.So is the tooltip wrong and it should ''1,49 attacks per second'' or did I miss something.

  19. #6899
    Quote Originally Posted by ZRebellion View Post
    I'm kind of confused.When reading a tooltip in game of a hero lvl1 I see ''attack speed:114 (1,49s per attack)''.
    But a hero with a BAT of 1,7 and 114 attack speed should be hitting every 0,79s.So is the tooltip wrong and it should ''1,49 attacks per second'' or did I miss something.
    Dota 2 adds 100 IAS as baseline, so at 100 IAS you're at your BAT. And the cap in the in-game measure is 500 instead of 400. Makes it easier to calculate attacks per second, now it's just (IAS/100)/BAT instead of (1+IAS/100)/BAT.
    Manni of Paragon. Moderator of Dota 2 subforum - The golden rule: Listen to Lysah. Seriously.

  20. #6900
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Dota 2 adds 100 IAS as baseline, so at 100 IAS you're at your BAT. And the cap in the in-game measure is 500 instead of 400. Makes it easier to calculate attacks per second, now it's just (IAS/100)/BAT instead of (1+IAS/100)/BAT.
    Oh shit there goes a huge chunk of the theorycrafting I did past hours as I was using the old formula.

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