[Megathread] DotA 2

[Hermanni]

so why don't pros pick alch instead of lina if he's so good? I mean, you see lina somewhat often (or did a month ago anyway), but i've never, ever seen alchemist used as a support... Or even picked very much. If he's picked, it's as a carry.

Ck has a 3 second average duration stormbolt on a 10 second cooldown and a 700 range blink strike on steroids, but you don't see him being picked as support, do you?

NEWS FLASH

major tournaments aren't played in all random, more at 10

And you probably know better than to bring "why don't pros do this" into the argument so why even bother.

[Lysah]

Yeah, you can win, but only if your team is enormously ahead of the other team in terms of skill. A balanced team will win against a team of 5 carries every time unless the balanced team is retarded. I've played support CK, support DK, support Juggernaut, even support Alchemist... and none of those heroes is going to be worth squat as a support compared to a Thrall, a Jakiro, or heroes like that, because they only really have one good spell, while the Thralls and Jakiros have four in exchange for not being able to do much with gold.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/157141868

Oh, and

http://dotabuff.com/matches/153779887

We didn't have 5 carry the second game until I decided to make it that way, though.

[PizzaSHARK]

http://dotabuff.com/matches/157141868

Oh, and

http://dotabuff.com/matches/153779887

We didn't have 5 carry the second game until I decided to make it that way, though.

Psst... there's a common factor in those games: You were on the winning team.

If both teams are evenly skilled, the five carry team will lose every time.

---------- Post added 2013-03-25 at 01:18 PM ----------

NEWS FLASH

major tournaments aren't played in all random, more at 10

And you probably know better than to bring "why don't pros do this" into the argument so why even bother.

Because it's presumably the only level of play people give two shits about, and if we're talking about why supports are better at supporting than carries... why wouldn't you look at hero use at the pro level?

[Deleted]

why wouldn't you look at hero use at the pro level?

Because the information on that level cannot be completely applied to a pub.

[Hermanni]

Because it's presumably the only level of play people give two shits about, and if we're talking about why supports are better at supporting than carries... why wouldn't you look at hero use at the pro level?

We're talking about how to recover from bad draft in AR and other modes, why would you even bring up what pros might do? Not that it would be relevant in any context, a list of things that are good that pros don't do could probably fill several books. I've played plenty of games against stacks that would pick or random a good early-game lineup, get a lot of kills and push a lot of towers but still lose because my carry stacked team could hold onto our base, even if just barely. I've also won several games with roaming Alchemist, all it took was Orb of Venom and a few Smokes.

[Deleted]

Dota 2 is awesome game on steam. Im playing it a lot.

And the nice thing is that you get free copyes <3

[PizzaSHARK]

We're talking about how to recover from bad draft in AR and other modes, why would you even bring up what pros might do? Not that it would be relevant in any context, a list of things that are good that pros don't do could probably fill several books. I've played plenty of games against stacks that would pick or random a good early-game lineup, get a lot of kills and push a lot of towers but still lose because my carry stacked team could hold onto our base, even if just barely. I've also won several games with roaming Alchemist, all it took was Orb of Venom and a few Smokes.

And, again, the common factor is that you're on the winning team. I'm saying that if you assume both teams are equally skilled and coordinated, you'll run into AR games where one team basically can't win. Had a game where we had nothing but carries, our only stun was Pudge, and they had a phenomenal push-oriented team (Krob, Rhasta, Omni) and just started playing 5 man doto nonstop. Can't teamfight them, can't defend towers, and even though they let me free farm as Bloodseeker, they'd taken four towers by 8 minutes. I finished my Diffusal Blade (obvious choice with Omni on enemy team) pretty quickly, all things considered, but there was no way we could fight them with the enormous gold advantage they had, and we couldn't afford to ignore their pushes to farm aggressively.

Mistakes were made on both sides (our Pudge lost mid to Krob but later redeemed himself with some phenomenal hooks, and the enemy team got too aggressive on their first high ground push and got wiped), but both teams felt evenly matched - but one team had a very clear advantage over the other, meaning we still had no real chance of winning. It was actually a fun game until the enemy team started spouting shit in allchat as if they were somehow skilled for playing 5-man doto with all of their ultis up.

[Deleted]

So why don't pros pick Alch instead of Lina if he's so good? I mean, you see Lina somewhat often (or did a month ago anyway), but I've never, ever seen Alchemist used as a support... or even picked very much. If he's picked, it's as a carry.

CK has a 3 second average duration stormbolt on a 10 second cooldown and a 700 range blink strike on steroids, but you don't see him being picked as support, do you?

Mostly because he's melee, that can be a bit of a dick in lane but it certainly works out if you play your best.

CK isn't picked as a support because the only 2 spells he has that helps him support his team in any way can be pretty much replaced by just getting a VS who also has armor reduction and a +damage aura. Sure his stun his absolutely ridiculous but outside of getting himself in range, the blink strike is weak as shit.

And, again, the common factor is that you're on the winning team.

I am fairly certain that Hermanni and Lysah are not the Immortal Gods of Matchmaking.

[PizzaSHARK]

Mostly because he's melee, that can be a bit of a dick in lane but it certainly works out if you play your best.

CK isn't picked as a support because the only 2 spells he has that helps him support his team in any way can be pretty much replaced by just getting a VS who also has armor reduction and a +damage aura. Sure his stun his absolutely ridiculous but outside of getting himself in range, the blink strike is weak as shit.

And Alchemist only really has the one spell. Without items his right-clicks aren't very noteworthy, and acid is only dangerous if you sit in it for the full duration.

I am fairly certain that Hermanni and Lysah are not the Immortal Gods of Matchmaking.

Probably not, but I imagine they're better than the vast majority of players, even at VH MMR.

[Deleted]

And Alchemist only really has the one spell. Without items his right-clicks aren't very noteworthy, and acid is only dangerous if you sit in it for the full duration.

Acid Spray reduces armor.
Stun is a stun.
His ulti gives him very useful stats for supporting (Health, health regen, mana regen, move speed, all of which are excellent stats to have on supports. The only wasted part of it is the BAT reduction) (Also the ability to dodge projectiles but this is a niche application I guess)

[PizzaSHARK]

Acid Spray reduces armor.
Stun is a stun.
His ulti gives him very useful stats for supporting (Health, health regen, mana regen, move speed, all of which are excellent stats to have on supports. The only wasted part of it is the BAT reduction) (Also the ability to dodge projectiles but this is a niche application I guess)

But his stun is useless if you don't have some way of having it ready and in position before it's needed - like a lothar's or invis rune. You can't rely on fog of war because any competent team will have wards and will see you moving around.

His stun can also easily be denied with a silence or stun of your own, or by simply getting out of range (force staff, fog, etc.)

[Deleted]

But his stun is useless if you don't have some way of having it ready and in position before it's needed - like a lothar's or invis rune. You can't rely on fog of war because any competent team will have wards and will see you moving around.

His stun can also easily be denied with a silence or stun of your own, or by simply getting out of range (force staff, fog, etc.)

Smoke > u

[Maruka]

Geez i dont play in any high level matches but i think i played my best string of games. In the last six games i had 4 god likes and i think three of those games were down to the last 20 seconds on what team would win. Warlock, WD and necro (had a bad start they had lion and lina so i got bkb and owned them) i had great matches with.


Do any of you guys have heroes that just seem to work for you? My wd record is like 18-4 and i think im like 5.3 kda ratio on dotabuff, im an average player but for some reason i just slay with wd most times.

[Hermanni]

And, again, the common factor is that you're on the winning team. I'm saying that if you assume both teams are equally skilled and coordinated, you'll run into AR games where one team basically can't win.

And if teams are balanced and draft is balanced, then the team that gets first blood automatically wins because they have an advantage? AR can put you in a game that is difficult to win because you start off with a disadvantage, but that doesn't mean they're impossible. Besides, I barely win more than 50% of my games so I doubt my games are imbalanced because of me, at least if the queue isn't longer than a couple of minutes.

[Lillpapps]

Two teams will NEVER be equally skilled for 30-60 minutes.

[Keyzz]

But his stun is useless if you don't have some way of having it ready and in position before it's needed - like a lothar's or invis rune. You can't rely on fog of war because any competent team will have wards and will see you moving around.

His stun can also easily be denied with a silence or stun of your own, or by simply getting out of range (force staff, fog, etc.)

You crack me up. Always so angry and opinionated.

And I'm assuming you'll also say that pro's never picked Sven as a support. Just because someone can be a carry, doesn't mean that can't also be a support if played as one. Pro's don't pick Alch for support because there are usually better ones. That doesn't mean alch CAN'T support. It just means when you CAN CHOOSE YOUR HEROES, you probably wouldn't pick him. But if you do an AR and get alch and 4 other carries, you could play alch as a support in that situation.

For someone who is constantly on the case of "Omg everyone just follows what the pro's do even though there's so many other viable playstyles", I have no clue how you can use the "Why don't pros do it then" as an argument. You do realize those two arguments are fundamentally opposed, right?

Alch has a very long duration and potent stun (though yes it does have situational issues, but so does Lina and Leshrac). Maybe roam him with another stunner who initiates first. Alch has acid spray which is great for pushing as it owns creep waves and also makes it hard for enemy team to counter your push (especially at early levels). Acid spray also reduces armor, solid for a teamfight. Alch is also good at stacking neutrals, especially in radiant jungle. And then can clear them all with well placed acid spray. His greed increases the gold he would get from this jungling and allow him to buy items quicker than other supports would since they can't clear the jungle (with exceptions) and dont get bonus gold. Finally, his ult is solid for move speed and regens.

Is he an ideal support, probably not. Is he better as a carry, probably. But just because he doesn't fit your predetermined notion of a support, doesn't make him useless as one.

[reighnman]

Anyone ever play enchantress without enchant? Since dota1 I've always played more of a carry enchant and gone with stats before enchant, which I do in dota2 as well unless I can jungle. I do pretty well with her like this but lately been getting a ton of qq that I don't get enchant early.

[Kuntantee]

You crack me up. Always so angry and opinionated.

And I'm assuming you'll also say that pro's never picked Sven as a support. Just because someone can be a carry, doesn't mean that can't also be a support if played as one. Pro's don't pick Alch for support because there are usually better ones. That doesn't mean alch CAN'T support. It just means when you CAN CHOOSE YOUR HEROES, you probably wouldn't pick him. But if you do an AR and get alch and 4 other carries, you could play alch as a support in that situation.

For someone who is constantly on the case of "Omg everyone just follows what the pro's do even though there's so many other viable playstyles", I have no clue how you can use the "Why don't pros do it then" as an argument. You do realize those two arguments are fundamentally opposed, right?

Alch has a very long duration and potent stun (though yes it does have situational issues, but so does Lina and Leshrac). Maybe roam him with another stunner who initiates first. Alch has acid spray which is great for pushing as it owns creep waves and also makes it hard for enemy team to counter your push (especially at early levels). Acid spray also reduces armor, solid for a teamfight. Alch is also good at stacking neutrals, especially in radiant jungle. And then can clear them all with well placed acid spray. His greed increases the gold he would get from this jungling and allow him to buy items quicker than other supports would since they can't clear the jungle (with exceptions) and dont get bonus gold. Finally, his ult is solid for move speed and regens.

Is he an ideal support, probably not. Is he better as a carry, probably. But just because he doesn't fit your predetermined notion of a support, doesn't make him useless as one.

First of all, you gain one skill pointer per level not 3 which means you won't be leveling greed and won't get those key support items faster than other supports. Hybrid-skilling won't work because as support you need to level your stun. Also you need to level your acid if you want it to be effective. His ultimate is irrelevant as support. Why? Because you will be ignored. Support alchemist do not posses any serious threat in a team fight and he's not easy to kill unlike some other int supports. Acid is a good utility in late game, however, most of the early and mid game fights are composed of magical bursts so that's not ultra-great and fights occur in early-mid game tend be fast paced and end quickly. Such fights will be over before your acid do some serious damage. It's damage over time is moderate if you stand still whole fight. It's not reliable as it's easy to avoid. I am not saying you can avoid it in every single fight because that's not possible sometimes, however, it's not that fight changing. He's best tool is his stun and I am not sure how reliable it is. Sure, it will mostly work ganks but not sure about team fights. He's not even close to being a good support. Even CM(which most consider as a weak support) can not be ignored because of her ultimate and other bursts but you can surely ignore alchemist. I can understand that he may be best candidate for being support in AR if you have 4 carries but not like he has some potential like you wrote.

[Lysah]

I play enchantress without untouchable. Enchant is too powerful.

[Hermanni]

First of all, you gain one skill pointer per level not 3 which means you won't be leveling greed and won't get those key support items faster than other supports. Hybrid-skilling won't work because as support you need to level your stun. Also you need to level your acid if you want it to be effective. His ultimate is irrelevant as support. Why? Because you will be ignored. Support alchemist do not posses any serious threat in a team fight and he's not easy to kill unlike some other int supports. Acid is a good utility in late game, however, most of the early and mid game fights are composed of magical bursts so that's not ultra-great and fights occur in early-mid game tend be fast paced and end quickly. Such fights will be over before your acid do some serious damage. It's damage over time is moderate if you stand still whole fight. It's not reliable as it's easy to avoid. I am not saying you can avoid it in every single fight because that's not possible sometimes, however, it's not that fight changing. He's best tool is his stun and I am not sure how reliable it is. Sure, it will mostly work ganks but not sure about team fights. He's not even close to being a good support. Even CM(which most consider as a weak support) can not be ignored because of her ultimate and other bursts but you can surely ignore alchemist. I can understand that he may be best candidate for being support in AR if you have 4 carries but not like he has some potential like you wrote.

I don't know why you think he thinks you get 3 skill points per level, no part of his post implied that you need to be able to magically level all skills in the early game. And how can Chemical Rage be irrelevant for support, it's a ton of mana and HP regen every 45 seconds and a boost to max HP and movement speed. Those are good stats for every hero.

---------- Post added 2013-03-27 at 12:46 AM ----------

Anyone ever play enchantress without enchant? Since dota1 I've always played more of a carry enchant and gone with stats before enchant, which I do in dota2 as well unless I can jungle. I do pretty well with her like this but lately been getting a ton of qq that I don't get enchant early.

I really doubt there's a good Ench build that involves not putting at least 1 point in Enchant early on.