[Megathread] DotA 2

[Deleted]

@Dota pubs: I long ago gave away hope of getting anywhere decent ladder-wise on dota2 while queuing solo. A good example could be a match i had yesterday - after a winning streak i found myself on a team of 2 clueless russians (who ended up leaving before 10 min mark, but not early enough for early abandon), and we had to 3man...
Funnily enough, the other team was HORRIBLE. They actually lost 3v5... And that tells something.

So my POV is:unless you're a premade group, laddering solo will never get you above 50-55%, because the matchmaking system will eat you alive sooner or later.

Oh, and hi there lysah. Tell trix i said hi ^^

kinda weird though that most people end up near 50%?im also near 50%,it doesn't make any sense,maybe matchmaking is designed to keep everyone near this.So everyone doesn't lose or win too much.

[Anakonda]

kinda weird though that most people end up near 50%?im also near 50%,it doesn't make any sense,maybe matchmaking is designed to keep everyone near this.So everyone doesn't lose or win too much.

One thing i miss from HON was it's ranking & matchmaking/balancing system. People always raged about it, but it worked like a charm. In dota2, the moment i enter a very high game rating, i instantly get matched with feeding russians (MID OR FEED PIZDA SUKA) and plop back down. Sigh.

[Demidov]

One thing i miss from HON was it's ranking & matchmaking/balancing system. People always raged about it, but it worked like a charm. In dota2, the moment i enter a very high game rating, i instantly get matched with feeding russians (MID OR FEED PIZDA SUKA) and plop back down. Sigh.

Same. I think I only managed to get to two very high matches? Lost both of them and bumped down to high, and it's hard to get up the matchmaking again.

[Maruka]

http://dotabuff.com/players/48000221

Thats mine, 51.3% win with around 750 games played. No idea how many D1 games i played but it would have to be in the thousands for sure. I also get frustrated how i get on a nice win streak then get put with complete mouth breathers for a couple games where it is clear they just want me to lose.

Notice my last game i played, Kotl godlike oh yeaaaaaah. Oh and dat WD win rate/kda.

[reighnman]

http://dotabuff.com/players/23256981

I'm at 53%, mostly solo queue so please add me.. I feel like it's constantly win/loss/win/loss/win/loss for me, sometimes in groups of 2 or 3. My last game yesterday I was matched with 4 people that didn't speak English, but still managed to get a win against a solid team (nyx/lion/visage/snk/mag)

If you want a good time feel free to pull up the replay on this one.. http://dotabuff.com/matches/183752782

[Longview]

Here's a few points I made a while back, they're relevant to the MMR discussion.

There has been statements by high-ups over at dev.dota2.com that levels are purely cosmetic, and they've also said that win/loss-ratio doesn't determine what your rating is (neither does number of wins). It is not rare to see a difference in the 40-50's when I queue.

The only thing we do know about the match making system is that it's a modified version of TrueSkill, which is more accurate than ELO in a multiplayer scenario. ELO works better for single player scenarios such as chess. Read more about TrueSkill here.

We also know that match making rating is not based on wins or losses, and we know that there are a lot of variables in action. What variables this might or might not be is pure speculation unless you are an employee of Valve. If you ever visit Valve HQ, they may tell you what percentile you're in - they told TobiWan that SingSing was the highest ranked player when he visited. That was a long time ago though.

[...] the three tiers of rating are not related to match making rating. Rather, they're there to help distinguish "good" games with higher than average G/XPM and whatever else Valve chose - with the intent to help players find good replays. (Source)

Here's some Valve quotes on matchmaking if you're still trying to wrap your head around it:
http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?p=282075#post282075
http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?p=282033#post282033
http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?...854#post156854
http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?p=156150#post156150

TLDR: MMR isn't based on win/loss (hi hermanni), has nothing to do with your cosmetic levels, or the number of games you have played. There's a ton of information being pulled from every player in each game to determine your ranking. You're then queued against players at your own rating (the longer the queue, the broader the potential MMR difference between players in one game becomes). If you're getting feeding russians every other games, this means two things:

• You've a case of selective memory
• These players are at or around your own skill level

One thing i miss from HON was it's ranking & matchmaking/balancing system. People always raged about it, but it worked like a charm. In dota2, the moment i enter a very high game rating, i instantly get matched with feeding russians (MID OR FEED PIZDA SUKA) and plop back down. Sigh.

I disagree. I live with two dudes who still play HoN (and Dota 2, but mainly HoN). Shit like "lmao dont let brown or oj go mid fucking shitters" is commonplace. Repulsive.

[PizzaSHARK]

I disagree. I live with two dudes who still play HoN (and Dota 2, but mainly HoN). Shit like "lmao dont let brown or oj go mid fucking shitters" is commonplace. Repulsive.

Yeah, I don't know what it is about Dota games that attract such raging shitbags. The only game community I've experienced that's worse is the heroic raiding/arenatard segment of WoW.

It's funny. I've been getting back into Counter-Strike over the past couple of weeks and I'd almost forgotten what it was like to play a game and just generally encounter a bunch of random strangers all having fun together game after game after game.

[Enkidulgaa]

The problem with matchmaking and the whole "forced 50% winrate" is that instead of matching you with 9 other people who are higher skill level it puts 4 complete retards in your team and 5 chinese dota legends on the other team
I'd have no problem if after a winstreak I get into a game where everybody is above my skill level and I just cant keep up with them, but the way it works now is that the game expects me to carry 4 people who feed more kills than I can get levels in the first 10 minutes
It just appears that everytime you go too far above 50% the game puts the worst players on the entire planet in your team

[PizzaSHARK]

The problem with matchmaking and the whole "forced 50% winrate" is that instead of matching you with 9 other people who are higher skill level it puts 4 complete retards in your team and 5 chinese dota legends on the other team
I'd have no problem if after a winstreak I get into a game where everybody is above my skill level and I just cant keep up with them, but the way it works now is that the game expects me to carry 4 people who feed more kills than I can get levels in the first 10 minutes
It just appears that everytime you go too far above 50% the game puts the worst players on the entire planet in your team

Seems to be how it works for me. I'm expecting some bad games ahead since I'm on a winning streak right now.

Last game I lost was with a 4 stack of idiot Aussies, who I guess all reported me for chat harassment for having the temerity to suggest that Windrunner wasn't actually a very good offlane hero, or that a 0/7 Drow is considerably worse than a 0/7 Chen.

I'm still having mixed feelings on this chat ban thing. Communication is so damned important, you might as well just throw them in low priority. It's annoying when half your teammates do nothing but ping and use the commorose to communicate.

[Deleted]

I disagree. I live with two dudes who still play HoN (and Dota 2, but mainly HoN). Shit like "lmao dont let brown or oj go mid fucking shitters" is commonplace. Repulsive.

While its insulting to the 2 players, it was sadly correct.The difference between one team's highest rated player and the opposing team lowest one was gamebreaking.

[Longview]

The problem with matchmaking and the whole "forced 50% winrate" is that instead of matching you with 9 other people who are higher skill level it puts 4 complete retards in your team and 5 chinese dota legends on the other team

Do you have any basis for this or is this another case of selective memory? I mean, after >1200 games I think I would have noticed something. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I've won nine games in a row easily and lost the tenth even though it was close. I just don't see it the same way, I guess.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for the MMR system to punish a single individual for winning a couple of games. Not even remotely. People have bad games, and sometimes people try out heroes they have no idea how to play. I'd say they're all probably around your rating every time.

While its insulting to the 2 players, it was sadly correct.The difference between one team's highest rated player and the opposing team lowest one was gamebreaking.

Which is what I'm disagreeing with. Brown or orange isn't automatically the lowest rated player on each team, so there's no flaming. There are no visible ratings, so people do not care as much if they win or lose.

[Hermanni]

As long as you don't exclusively play in imbalanced stacks (either with high skill disparity or extreme tryharding), your winrate being near 50% is just a sign that the system is working. It doesn't need to enforce anything and I very much doubt the system has a feature of "oh looks like you won a few games, gonna put you into an impossible game next", win/loss streaks are just a natural occurrence. If your queue lasts for well over 4 minutes, you can expect the game to possibly be unbalanced because the matchmaking range is way off. I sat in queue for 8 or 9 minutes a few days ago and this was the result, had to play against the worst mid player I've seen in a while and it wasn't pretty.

[Anakonda]

What the system seems to do is put lower-skilled players together with higher-skilled, aka to balance it. Problem is, it becomes a single player dota game. Either you are strong enough to alone carry your team (= game is not balanced), or you get drowned by the feeders & low skilled people (again, game not balanced). Low people should play with low, high with high, not mix and match.

---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 07:40 PM ----------

As long as you don't exclusively play in imbalanced stacks (either with high skill disparity or extreme tryharding), your winrate being near 50% is just a sign that the system is working. It doesn't need to enforce anything and I very much doubt the system has a feature of "oh looks like you won a few games, gonna put you into an impossible game next", win/loss streaks are just a natural occurrence. If your queue lasts for well over 4 minutes, you can expect the game to possibly be unbalanced because the matchmaking range is way off. I sat in queue for 8 or 9 minutes a few days ago and this was the result, had to play against the worst mid player I've seen in a while and it wasn't pretty.

How about having a pudge with midas and MOM on your team? Or chen with 2 dagons (yes, two)? If there was a dota bingo, id probably have hit a jackpot by now

[Longview]

Low people should play with low, high with high, not mix and match.

They are. If you're placed with people your own skill level every game, you should get around 50% win/loss-ratio eventually. That's how the system works.

One of my friends couldn't get to 1900 in HoN (pre-compression) because he was stuck in the 1800-trench. He couldn't get higher because the people on his team were always dragging him down. It doesn't really work that way.

[Anakonda]

They are. If you're placed with people your own skill level every game, you should get around 50% win/loss-ratio eventually. That's how the system works.

One of my friends couldn't get to 1900 in HoN (pre-compression) because he was stuck in the 1800-trench. He couldn't get higher because the people on his team were always dragging him down. It doesn't really work that way.

And yet i ALWAYS find myself in terrible teams after a winning streak. No, not a selective memory, but i know if i win 6-7-8 games in a row, im bound to get a HORRIBLE team, and go on a losing streak. Im perfectly fine with losing a game when match is fair - i get those often. But i also very often get very one-sided matches, like a single lane feeding 15 kills in 8 minutes, or a group of 4 russians who tryhard and die to tower while trying to zerg it, etc. The issue is not losing. Issue is getting mix-n-matched with people from different skill groups rather than just your own, and that causes the game to be extremely unbalanced at times.

---------- Post added 2013-05-01 at 09:34 PM ----------

And yet i ALWAYS find myself in terrible teams after a winning streak. No, not a selective memory, but i know if i win 6-7-8 games in a row, im bound to get a HORRIBLE team, and go on a losing streak. Im perfectly fine with losing a game when match is fair - i get those often. But i also very often get very one-sided matches, like a single lane feeding 15 kills in 8 minutes, or a group of 4 russians who tryhard and die to tower while trying to zerg it, etc. The issue is not losing. Issue is getting mix-n-matched with people from different skill groups rather than just your own, and that causes the game to be extremely unbalanced at times.

Another example: after a winning streak a few days ago i found myself in a team with a decent kunkka and venomancer, but magnus and some other guy were horrid. Not only they fed for the small time they were in, they ended up both quitting (abandon, but not early abandon). So 8min+ we were 3v5.
Fun fact? the other team was even worse. If the other team was ANY good, they would have wiped the floor with us, hard. As it is, we survived for 40+ minutes AND won the game. The point of this "rant" is that after being on a winning stream i came up to a 1) bad team (the guys who left and were horrible), and 2) bad opponent team. How is that balanced?

[Keyzz]

Looks like somebody forgot to tell Omni you can't be a carry without steroids =/

Also I think they were winning early game, interestingly enough. Worth watching if you want to see some Enchantress failtraining.

Lol. Glad to see simple concepts still going over your head

[Longview]

And yet i ALWAYS find myself in terrible teams after a winning streak. No, not a selective memory, but i know if i win 6-7-8 games in a row, im bound to get a HORRIBLE team, and go on a losing streak.

That's just how selective memory works. Since Valve is very secretive with how MMR works (most of everything of what they've said is in the post I did just above here), do you at least have something to back this up with? Match IDs? No?

edit: Elder Titan ingame

[Anakonda]

edit: Elder Titan ingame

Never liked him. At least i got my <333 bristleback. Now all i want is my techies.

[PizzaSHARK]

That's just how selective memory works. Since Valve is very secretive with how MMR works (most of everything of what they've said is in the post I did just above here), do you at least have something to back this up with? Match IDs? No?

edit: Elder Titan ingame

Wow he looks dumb.

[Longview]

bad ass