1. #7681
    Deleted
    @Lysah

    I've been trying Desolator Clinkz for a bit now to see how well it compares to Orchid build etc. I found it not bad but not better than Orchid, in my opinion. However, I found Medallion and Soul Ring extremely useful. Medallion just wrecks people early game and allows you to go roam way earlier instead of rushing Orchid.

    Desolator doesn't really do much for you. In terms of DPS, you don't get enough to kill people before they have time to react. The advantages of Medallion is that you can get it early and people actually don't expect that much DPS and they haven't gotten any real core items yet. Desolator timing is a bit too late.

    I watched one of your games and you went only for like the 5 position hero. All other heroes you found, you couldn't really kill because they would have time to react with their spells. And without Orchid, your attack speed isn't that high so 3-4 attacks take quite a while unless you stand point-blank, which you didn't either. It also made me a bit sad to see you not use the Desolator debuff at times and when you did, you toggled Searing Arrows on and off by clicking=S. And I really question the skill level of the opponents you faced. You were laning against Sniper mid and he decided it was a good choice to trade hits with a Clinkz from downhill at level 4 or something and then die.

  2. #7682
    I haven't laned Sniper mid in a long time...I know what game you're talking about, but wasn't that like two months ago? Either that or it was the fairly recent game where I was only going for their hard support (god how I hate this "5 position" crap (sorry)) because everyone else was so ridiculously fed anyway it didn't matter.
    Here is a much more recent example, though I'm not totally proud of it, my farm wasn't that great and we almost ended up losing and I got pretty pissed off toward the end about it. Still, it's a prime example of why not to go orchid against Jugg and N'aix enemy carry (not that I've seen anyone doing that lately).

    I do toggle arrows by clicking, just a habit. DotA isn't a hard enough game for me to need to get used to shift keying.

    Yes, you're not going to rip through 2800 health/25 armor heroes with desolator. You won't with Orchid, either. I guarantee in almost all circumstances Deso will give you the same damage Orchid does and far more at that, the only advantage Orchid rushing has is being able to silence. This can be very useful against, say, blink heroes, but it is by no means mandatory nor should it ever be considered core. You know what other item fills the same job that no one ever buys? Guinsoo's. Orchid has just become that item everyone buys because no one knows how to play BF.

    And what is your desolator timing? I find anything later than 14-15 to be a bad game. For me, items always come down to "what would you buy, instead?" Against desolator, what item stacks up for 4k gold? Orchid? Hah, no. Extremely overvalued since it got nerfed and if you're not using the mana regen heavily (with soul ring, you won't be) you're wasting your time. Mostly, it seems like you're just actively searching for reasons to think the item/build isn't good, which I find unfortunate.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-05-10 at 01:14 AM.

  3. #7683
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I haven't laned Sniper mid in a long time...I know what game you're talking about, but wasn't that like two months ago? Either that or it was the fairly recent game where I was only going for their hard support (god how I hate this "5 position" crap (sorry)) because everyone else was so ridiculously fed anyway it didn't matter.
    Here is a much more recent example, though I'm not totally proud of it, my farm wasn't that great and we almost ended up losing and I got pretty pissed off toward the end about it. Still, it's a prime example of why not to go orchid against Jugg and N'aix enemy carry (not that I've seen anyone doing that lately).

    I do toggle arrows by clicking, just a habit. DotA isn't a hard enough game for me to need to get used to shift keying.

    Yes, you're not going to rip through 2800 health/25 armor heroes with desolator. You won't with Orchid, either. I guarantee in almost all circumstances Deso will give you the same damage Orchid does and far more at that, the only advantage Orchid rushing has is being able to silence. This can be very useful against, say, blink heroes, but it is by no means mandatory nor should it ever be considered core. You know what other item fills the same job that no one ever buys? Guinsoo's. Orchid has just become that item everyone buys because no one knows how to play BF.

    And what is your desolator timing? I find anything later than 14-15 to be a bad game. For me, items always come down to "what would you buy, instead?" Against desolator, what item stacks up for 4k gold? Orchid? Hah, no. Extremely overvalued since it got nerfed and if you're not using the mana regen heavily (with soul ring, you won't be) you're wasting your time. Mostly, it seems like you're just actively searching for reasons to think the item/build isn't good, which I find unfortunate.
    It was this game: http://dotabuff.com/matches/184652391. 10 days ago.

    It's because of the silence you want Orchid. In that game you could probably easily have picked off Omniknight and in fights you could probably have silenced him to stop him from using his ultimate. Same with the Nyx in that game. You couldn't ever go on him because of his Carapace. Hex is way too expensive in my opinion to go for as a first item and Orchid provides way more DPS for Clinkz due to it giving insane attack speed and it is very easy to build up.

    I am not actively trying to find reasons for it being not good. I was surprised at how much damage armor reduction was giving. I just found Desolator obsolete due to Medallion. I tried your build but when I was trying it I just found it not enough DPS to kill people who I felt I could have killed with Orchid.

    I also usually go hard lane Clinkz, which doesn't always allow me good farm if their support trades hits with me and buy sentries. But I remember when I went for straight Orchid that 12-13 minutes was good timing on off lane if it was easy. Else around 15-16 min. I wasn't very active around map until then with my old style. I tried your Soul Ring and Medallion. I found it good and it allowed me to start killing at level 6-7 and just roam from there on. My farm wouldn't be as good but I don't play Clinkz as a hard carry. I run around trying to kill people and hardly ever farm from there on.

    EDIT: Again, that Naix Sven game makes me wonder about the skill level of your opponents. Naix didn't toggle his Armlet on half of the fights. Now, that's an issue.
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2013-05-10 at 02:32 AM.

  4. #7684
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    Quote Originally Posted by Underskilled View Post
    Heh, I remember when I had that mindset when I started dota. You can't really claim any hero is 'OP' with a good understanding of all of them, though, as there's a pretty big difference between OP and top tier.
    I understand every hero. I understand that some heroes have skills which are frankly overpowered, and other heroes are just overpowered in general. I think it's funny you talk about having a "good understanding," and not understanding those simple facts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  5. #7685
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    It's more accurate to say it like this:

    If a single ability is overpowered, it should be looked at, but if it doesn't make the hero in general overpowered, it's not a high priority. It's something you should keep in mind, but it's not OMFG FIX NAO.

    If the entire hero is overpowered, that's your priority - there shouldn't be any heroes that are always going to be a first-round pick/ban in nearly every game simply because of how ridiculously strong they are. I don't know if it's possible to prevent this from ever happening, but when it does happen, action should be taken.

    For example, Batrider was seen in 428 of 428 tournament games played, according to the stats someone posted last week. So why was he picked or banned in literally every single game? Is he overpowered? If he isn't, why is he still being seen so often? If he's determined to be overpowered, what are your options for bringing him back down to earth?

    You could maybe do the same thing with heroes, looking for heroes that are underpowered and might be in need of attention - I think you could make a case for both Morphling and Invoker here, though it might be that neither hero is underpowered, just not suited to the current playstyle. Likewise, just because a hero is seen frequently doesn't mean he's overpowered... though it can be a potential red flag.

    I don't like a stagnant metagame. I think making small, incremental adjustments to heroes that are overperforming is a way of encouraging different playstyles without doing something ham-fisted like post-TI2 nerfs to Morphling and Invoker (neither hero is seen much anymore because of how enormous the nerfs were to them.)

    Honestly, I'd really like to see relative hero strengths be based around the amount of skill or APM required to play them; I hate how strong Leoric can be despite being almost certainly the easiest hero in the game to play (you have literally one button to push and you typically don't even buy items with activated abilities on him!), same with CK, PA, etc etc etc. I don't think Dota is designed in a way that would make basing the game around that feasible, but it's always annoying to see someone that has no idea what they're doing still perform very well because their hero doesn't really require you to know anything about the game.

    Then again, my favorite hero is Visage and it's disheartening to push my APM to the limits and perform at the same level as someone that's spent half the game watching TV on another monitor

    ---------- Post added 2013-05-10 at 01:29 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by scarecrowz View Post
    He's right you know. Just the point he makes here in the quote.

    Faceless Void is extremely broken. I don't care if you can "POSSIBLY" counter his ultimate with a force staff.

    No other ability in the game allows you to dodge 100% of ALL damage. At least with his incarnation in HoN his "backtrack" is a heal over time. Meaning he can still be bursted down. Coupled with inbuilt bash and a blink with a slow attached.
    I don't like RNG in general, especially when it's a major RNG like PA's crit or Backtrack. Backtracking a stormbolt or laguna blade is a BIG damn deal, and it's happening completely independent of player skill or action - Lina pushes R, Void rolls a d20, and who wins might end up purely based on that dice roll. Same way with PA - 15% chance to crit for eleventy billion damage, and short of just having an enormous gold lead on her, the only real way to avoid the possibility of getting randomly gibbed by her rolling an 18-20 is to burst her down or lock her down... but that's not always an option. Hell, there are videos all over the place of PA just randomly winning games by rolling a lucky 20 at the right time; I've had a game instantly go from a sure win to a complete loss because PA had a string of lucky crits and no one could do anything about it short of just hiding in the fountain and letting her take the rax instead of trying to defend them.

    Juggy's crit, while RNG, doesn't bother me because he's not going to slice someone in half with a single swing unless he's ridiculously fed. All PA needs is phase boots and a Bfury to get to the point where she can very easily one-shot supports and even the squishier carries.

    Cancer lancer also needs some adjustments. Its not conceivable to have to send a minimum of 2 heroes to follow him teleporting around the map to stop his stupid farm.
    PL is boring as fuck to play and watch but I'm not sure I consider him overpowered. I'd like to see his illusions benefit less from Diffusal Blade than other illusions, but that might relegate him to "never played" status. Without a gigantic army, he's actually not that great at killing people compared to other carries - I guess his real use is in how rapidly he drains someone's mana with eleventy billion illusions all hitting at the same time. Nerfing that too much might make the hero irrelevant. I do think the whole "slow siege" thing with Manta Style and the army is pretty fucking stupid, but PL needs to be pretty fed for that to happen. I'd guess that if you let PL get that fed without having a way of dealing with it, you deserve to lose anyway.

    Also how do people feel about farming? I know its part of the competitive scene but I really play this game for the team aspect and for the excitement of outsmarting and outplaying other living breathing humans.

    Farming AI controlled creeps for 45 minutes then coming out at the end of the game and roflstomping everyone is booooooring.
    It can be interesting when it's not 45 minutes of AFK farming every game. I liked watching the pros use Replicates to maximize Morphling's farm time in TI2, but it got boring when every single game was like that.

    I guess it's unfortunate that Dota's meta seems to be pretty static without outside influences encouraging teams to try different playstyles. I wonder if 4-protect-1 would've fallen out of favor to be replaced with the trilane meta if Valve hadn't broken Morphling's kneecaps with 6.75.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  6. #7686
    Batrider is picked this much because Firefly gives too much vision. It's been for ages. For a hero designed around disabling and isolating heroes, that's too good to pass up.

  7. #7687
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    It was this game: http://dotabuff.com/matches/184652391. 10 days ago.
    Did you notice the 2-15 QoP on my team?

    I don't really have much more to add, I doubt you are playing "better" opponents because better doesn't really exist unless you're managing to only play in prostacks. Even if you are, the build isn't suddenly bad because people know how to click their armlet. Also, if you want an example of how bad orchid is go watch navi/EG that was played a few days ago, their orchid clinkz did absolutely nothing the entire game because he didn't have the damage for it.

    @pizza
    A hero being picked constantly could also be a sign that he's well balanced, being useful in all situations makes you well rounded. Winning 90% of the time you're picked makes you broken.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-05-10 at 10:51 AM.

  8. #7688
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    Did you notice the 2-15 QoP on my team?

    I don't really have much more to add, I doubt you are playing "better" opponents because better doesn't really exist unless you're managing to only play in prostacks. Even if you are, the build isn't suddenly bad because people know how to click their armlet. Also, if you want an example of how bad orchid is go watch navi/EG that was played a few days ago, their orchid clinkz did absolutely nothing the entire game because he didn't have the damage for it.

    @pizza
    A hero being picked constantly could also be a sign that he's well balanced, being useful in all situations makes you well rounded. Winning 90% of the time you're picked makes you broken.
    What does the 2-15 QoP have anything to do with you not being able to go on their Omniknight and Nyx because you didn't have the Silence from Orchid?

    I watched the EG game. Tell me where in the game Orchid didn't provide enough damage, please. Funn1k got caught out and melted like paper in the late game. Desolator wouldn't have helped with that. EG played 5 man early on, which reduced Funn1k's ability to pick off heroes, especially the support heroes. Your 3-4 hit Desolator build wouldn't have killed anyone either early game. Tell me where he lacked damage. And you realize Funn1ik is like the only player who has made Clinkz work in high level competitive games, right? At one point it was even a respect ban and he is regarded as one of the best Clinkz players in the world. He also probably has the highest win rate with the hero so it does work in competitive games.

  9. #7689
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    And you realize Funn1ik is like the only player who has made Clinkz work in high level competitive games, right? At one point it was even a respect ban and he is regarded as one of the best Clinkz players in the world. He also probably has the highest win rate with the hero so it does work in competitive games.
    Why does it matter what he has done, it doesn't stop him from being terrible in that game.

  10. #7690
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Why does it matter what he has done, it doesn't stop him from being terrible in that game.
    Of course it matters what he has done. He has proved time and time again that his Orchid Clinkz is one of the best in the world. Same way people have shown that Armlet works on Naix. Just because one player loses one game going that item doesn't prove that that item is useless. Especially when that item has nothing to do with the loss. Him being terrible in that game had nothing to do with going Orchid instead of Desolator. Or did you find a moment in that video where Desolator would have won them the game?
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2013-05-10 at 12:34 PM.

  11. #7691
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    Of course it matters what he has done. He has proved time and time again that his Orchid Clinkz is one of the best in the world. Same way people have shown that Armlet works on Naix. Just because one player loses one game going that item doesn't prove that that item is useless. Especially when that item has nothing to do with the loss. Him being terrible in that game had nothing to do with going Orchid instead of Desolator. Or did you find a moment in that video where it would have?
    Even if his bad item choice didn't lose as hard as him losing it just by dying it still doesn't make his item choice the right one. Just because one player invariably builds the same item doesn't prove there aren't other options that may or may not situationally be better.

    And no, I still don't see his past achievements being even remotely relevant in this context.
    Last edited by Hermanni; 2013-05-10 at 12:42 PM.

  12. #7692
    Quote Originally Posted by Ariadne View Post
    he is regarded as one of the best Clinkz players in the world
    I was hoping you'd say this so I could have a good laugh, thank you.

    Can we realize that individual heroes have skill caps? Whether it's navi or some rando right clicking enemy hero and pressing the "t" key the results are the exact same. Saying any one person is one of the best at any one hero is just hilarious. At the level we play at, every single hero in the game is piss easy and we're all equally good at all of them. The difference between god tier and standard good players is not in hero control, it is in decision making, and most especially, teamwork. His decision making that game was terrible.

    But this discussion isn't about HIM, it's about a game where Orchid was a terrible idea. If you really think he is somehow a better Clinkz than most anyone else it only backs up my argument more - what happened that game? Best player with best build couldn't make a play, I guess Clinkz just sucks needs major buffs or something.

    In my opinion, it's a classic example of how even tournament class players sheep to the meta game and refuse to evolve unless absolutely forced to.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-05-10 at 01:19 PM.

  13. #7693
    I'm with Ariadne on this one, i believe Orchid is a better item on Clinkz than Desolator. (the amount of damage that desolator provides is great, but IMO in some situations Orchid is better).

    On a side note, you're saying that past achievements count Ariadne (and i agree, it does matter), but i believe Lysah had good games with Clinkz + Desolator, so you can't take 1 game out of the pool and say that build doesnt work. About the lowskill i kind of agree, its unusuall to see a naix playing like that considering the "mmr" lysah is on, but that sort of thing happens in every rating, it doesnt matter if you're on normal/high/vhigh, eventually you're going to play with bad people, they had naix, lysah had QoP, seems like QoP was worst :P.

  14. #7694
    I didn't deny Orchid has its uses and you will still see me buy it from time to time, just like I buy it on other heroes, especially invisible ones.

    What we have to understand is that BF does negligible damage outside of strafe/ult. His job is not to carry, it's to assassinate. You pick one hero on the enemy team and you take them down. You pick Orchid if the hero you need to take down is a Storm Spirit or a QoP who will blink away from you if you can't silence. If you're trading your spot for enemy Sniper, Desolator is a far better pick, as Orchid does nothing to him but provide you a little damage boost. Deso also lets you beat down towers a lot faster, and after BF gets 3+ core items he can easily backdoor through protection and is basically a backdoor furion + nightmares since you can't actually make him leave with a TP scroll when he can level just about any hero in the game 1v1.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-05-10 at 01:28 PM.

  15. #7695
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hermanni View Post
    Even if his bad item choice didn't lose as hard as him losing it just by dying it still doesn't make his item choice the right one. Just because one player invariably builds the same item doesn't prove there aren't other options that may or may not situationally be better.
    You realize it was Lysah who first referenced to that game to show why Orchid Clinkz was bad, right?

    Please tell me what shows that an item build works.

    And tell me how referencing past games of a player and his success with a certain item isn't relevant in proving that an item is good in competitive games? You look at the games, you see what the item did for him and you realize they win games because that guy plays Clinkz so damn well and his item build is a part of that.

    Example, if you play a hero in a certain way with certain items and you do fairly well with it and then another player comes along. He shows how he plays the hero, he goes another item build and he is the only one that rips through professional teams because of his play with that hero. How has he not shown that his play style with that hero works? And his play style has very much to do with his item choices. Until you prove that your item build is better than his, in real games, you really got nothing on him.

    And I still don't see why you argue these points but give me no real example in that EG game where Desolator would have won or changed the game or made it easier for him to kill targets. Because that is what Lysah tried to say with referencing to that game, right? That Desolator would have made a difference and Orchid was the wrong choice and caused him to be useless in that game.
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2013-05-10 at 01:28 PM.

  16. #7696
    Honestly, if you want to use past references to back up the success of a build/player, how about you stop ignoring the fact that my KDA spread out over 20 games is a solid 10-15 kills for every death? I go godlike quite very nearly literally every time I buy desolator.

  17. #7697
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    I was hoping you'd say this so I could have a good laugh, thank you.

    Can we realize that individual heroes have skill caps? Whether it's navi or some rando right clicking enemy hero and pressing the "t" key the results are the exact same. Saying any one person is one of the best at any one hero is just hilarious. At the level we play at, every single hero in the game is piss easy and we're all equally good at all of them. The difference between god tier and standard good players is not in hero control, it is in decision making, and most especially, teamwork. His decision making that game was terrible.
    The difference bewteen you and Funn1k with Clinkz is huge. Funn1k makes big plays with the hero. He out lanes top players with the hero. Not all players have enough awareness and understanding of the game to know when to roam, when to farm, when to push. His style with Clinkz made it competitive. His farm fast Orchid, roam around map style made him successful with it. His decisions in when to leave lane and his ability to find and kill heroes is what makes him good.

    Same way s4's Batrider is called one of the best in Europe. You can't seriously tell me that any player would find the kills s4 finds with his Batrider. His understanding of hero movement is what allows him to do this. Same way Dendi's Pudge is famous. His ability to find kills and roam with that hero is what makes it work.

    Honestly, if you want to use past references to back up the success of a build/player, how about you stop ignoring the fact that my KDA spread out over 20 games is a solid 10-15 kills for every death? I go godlike quite very nearly literally every time I buy desolator.
    Why? Because I don't feel it is relevant. But if you say so:

    http://dotabuff.com/players/86723143...atch_type=real

    83% win rate with 24 games at higher MMR than you probably. Compare that to your 58% win with 31 games.
    Last edited by mmoc9f3c8526e6; 2013-05-10 at 01:42 PM.

  18. #7698
    You see what you want to see. There is no way to be a remarkable player with Clinkz. I could argue Bat or Pudge, at least they have some skill shots to work with, Clinkz is literally a right click hero.

    And he did not make Orchid famous, fast Orchid/roam Clinkz has been around since Orchid was introduced. It's not a very impressive leap of logic to grab Orchid on BF, pubs figured that one out pretty much the day the item got added.

    Maybe you should watch more than one game and have a little faith. As a final comment, there is no higher MMR than me. It does not exist and cannot exist. I realize we're quickly devolving into a pissing contest about individual skill, but how about you trust every single person who has ever played with me against your own personal opinion? I know it's hard to give up on personal opinions but I, for one, have faith. You can ask Manni, my MMR is high enough that even if I queue with brand new players it still sticks us in page 1 games. My queue time is 10-15 minutes on average because the system cannot find players at my skill level to fill a game with, it has to wait until the search range allows a game of players below me. It's pretty annoying, actually. Not that I didn't enjoy going against Merlini and his prostack with a new player like Hanna on my team. But that's what matchmaking considers mathematically fair.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-05-10 at 01:48 PM.

  19. #7699
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    You see what you want to see. There is no way to be a remarkable player with Clinkz. I could argue Bat or Pudge, at least they have some skill shots to work with, Clinkz is literally a right click hero.

    And he did not make Orchid famous, fast Orchid/roam Clinkz has been around since Orchid was introduced. It's not a very impressive leap of logic to grab Orchid on BF, pubs figured that one out pretty much the day the item got added.

    Maybe you should watch more than one game and have a little faith. As a final comment, there is no higher MMR than me. It does not exist and cannot exist. I realize we're quickly devolving into a pissing contest about individual skill, but how about you trust every single person who has ever played with me against your own personal opinion? I know it's hard to give up on personal opinions but I, for one, have faith. You can ask Manni, my MMR is high enough that even if I queue with brand new players it still sticks us in page 1 games. My queue time is 10-15 minutes on average because the system cannot find players at my skill level to fill a game with, it has to wait until the search range allows a game of players below me. It's pretty annoying, actually. Not that I didn't enjoy going against Merlini and his prostack with a new player like Hanna on my team. But that's what matchmaking considers mathematically fair.
    Ability to find kills and understand when you can kill them or not has much to do with Funn1k's Clinkz play style. When he wins games is because he can seemingly find kills out of nowhere. The same way s4's Batrider is famous, as I said. He find kill and openings many don't.

    I didn't say Funn1k made Orchid famous in public games. I said it was the build that made him successful with it in competitive games.

    You seem to queue AR a lot from what I've seen. It generally has longer queues.

  20. #7700
    Really tough to find kills with a hero that can't be seen and has max movespeed, you're right, I could never do that...

    And my AP queues are generally just as long, which is why I don't bother to switch to AP unless I feel like playing particular heroes. 10 minutes for AR game 8 minutes for AP what's the difference? I swapped to AR because of kids who just pick meta lineups all the time, this was especially a problem right after TI2. The amount of copycatting pros is really annoying, it's nice to not play with the same 6-8 heroes in every single game every single day from time to time. I've noticed it's a bit better now, but Magnus is still in virtually every single AP game I play, as is one of about 5 different carry (Gyro got huge, wonder how that happened) and of course Profit last pickers are still everywhere.


    Honestly, this whole argument reminds me of oh, so long ago when everyone told me that Lothar's was a terrible item, only good for pubstomping, pros would never use it because it's so easy to counter, and I must be playing against terrible players if I had any moderate level of success with it. And now we see pros using Lothar's all the time. Fascinating. You want to know what's REALLY easy to counter? Predictability, like going the same exact build and playing the same exact way with the same hero game after game after game.
    Last edited by Lysah; 2013-05-10 at 02:31 PM.

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