1. #21281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    I don't think ban : pick allpick draft is really what we're looking for, not in its pure form. Too many bans, which makes stacked teams absolutely destroy as they get to basically ban all counters to one or more heroes.

    In the current climate though, there's a lot of bullshit with people waiting far too long to pick anyway. I almost want regular all pick back for ranked at this point. I'm so godawful tired of this bullshit.
    Stacks will always be a problem. But guess what? If you're a random and there's a stack on the other team, there's a stack on your team too. The system will virtually always do 3+2/3+2, 4+1/4+1, and so on. I've never seen 2+2+1 or 3+1+1 though I guess they can happen.

    So I don't consider "well stacks could ban counters to their cheese" to be a valid argument. Yours can ban counters to your cheese just as easily as theirs can.

    The problem is that DotA is balanced around captains mode and the drafting within it. Being able to ban problem heroes (whether they counter your draft or whether they're just plain bullshit/overpowered) is a core element in DotA's gameplay balance and the fact that they're doing ranked without the banning half of drafting is a little fucking ridiculous.

    Like I said, compare regular CSGO queue to ranked CSGO queue. I don't like CS enough to draw parallels but I know they'll exist, because ranked queue is dramatically different from regular - it strives to emulate competitive CS (which is what the game is balanced around) as closely as is practical for a "6 random players are put together" system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  2. #21282
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    It doesn't defeat the point. The point of ranked is to emulate competitive as much as possible. Not even Valve are dumb enough to think that captains mode gets used outside of 5 stacks and RD is an abject failure just like every other non-allpick mode is.
    If they wanted to emulate Pro play as closely as they could they'd have restricted it to Captains only. They wouldn't have even let All Pick, and certainly not a Random Drafting mode, make it as a ranked option. Ranked exists in its current form primarilly to give you an idea of just how good you are at playing Dota, nothing more. Perhaps for some it also holds the tiny glimmer of hope that they might one day be good enough to go Pro, but that dream is out of reach for the biggest majority of the playerbase.

    As it stands, you can consistently get the Heroes you feel you're best at through all pick which is probably the best way for you to show how good you are at your best. Its by no means perfect of course, but if you're itching to show the world just how amazing you are at playing carry Treant it'll give you the chance. I don't really think you can draw a paralel to CS GO though. Okay, they're both competative games but as far as I'm aware you can't ban weapons from CS games if they're giving you problems (Or can you? Its been a very long time since I played any Counter Strike at all). Its probably best to compare it to other MOBAs who do use the same system for their ranked play as their pro play exclusively.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    I don't think ban : pick allpick draft is really what we're looking for, not in its pure form. Too many bans, which makes stacked teams absolutely destroy as they get to basically ban all counters to one or more heroes.
    And it would probably take ages getting through the drafting before you even started too, amongst all of the other problems. I do think all pick could be done better, but I don't think this is the way to go about it at all. Maybe have a set number of bans per team then have an ordered pick after that? Something that would have a nice balance of being able to ban out heroes you don't want to face, but at the same time let you get the Hero you want to play through the draft and into the game quickly. Theres lots of room for improvement.

  3. #21283
    How often do you play a match where someone goes "Why do you have two pairs of boots?" and stuff? http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2130954765
    (Note: Travels was my first item after Radiance lol.)

    Anyhow, on the subject of drafting there's one thing I find sorely missing. Captain's mode needs it so bad. Namely: An indication of whose turn it's gonna be. Similar to the draft overlay you see in progames when observing, where there's a distinct indication of who picks or bans and in what order.

  4. #21284
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    Good example of how insane support CK is. Replay unavailable, maybe Valve doesn't bother recording potato bracket matches or something. They got first blood on our Pudge at rune but we turned it into a 2-for-1 due to CK being OP as shit with 325 move speed and short cooldown stun, then got a kill on their mid Lion (should've been mid Zeus but he'd be just as easy to gank) and a fourth kill on their Zeus in the PA+Zeus offlane. Rest of the game was pretty meh for me... I don't think CK is very good as a pos 5 support, I spent a considerable portion of the midgame just trying to find some farm and trying to avoid their Sven.

    Even with minor farm CK is still able to contribute in teamfights, 900 range on Reality Rift is like a poor man's Nether Swap on 6 sec cd, great for abusing enemy supports. His ult is really flexible too. With an underfarmed support CK I use it a lot like an on-demand Illusion rune for scouting like how Zeus or Spec can pop ulti for scouting, since CK illusions tend to get cleared pretty fast by most AOE if CK is underfarmed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    How often do you play a match where someone goes "Why do you have two pairs of boots?" and stuff? http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2130954765
    (Note: Travels was my first item after Radiance lol.)

    Anyhow, on the subject of drafting there's one thing I find sorely missing. Captain's mode needs it so bad. Namely: An indication of whose turn it's gonna be. Similar to the draft overlay you see in progames when observing, where there's a distinct indication of who picks or bans and in what order.
    I actually lost a CM game in a 5 stack because of that. We got it mixed up who got first pick (they got first ban so I was sure that meant we got first pick because I'm an idiot), so we didn't ban the Invoker we planned on first picking... so they first picked Invoker.

    derp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  5. #21285
    I was going to ask where naga siren is nowadays, but... jeez. Her dotabuff winrate is at 46.48% at 4-5k mmr, and somewhere in the 43% range for most other brackets. Is she actually that bad? Are people just rushing Radiance and damning the rest of the team? Is Song of the Siren just screwing over too much for teams? I feel like something's off with stats that bad.

  6. #21286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    I was going to ask where naga siren is nowadays, but... jeez. Her dotabuff winrate is at 46.48% at 4-5k mmr, and somewhere in the 43% range for most other brackets. Is she actually that bad? Are people just rushing Radiance and damning the rest of the team? Is Song of the Siren just screwing over too much for teams? I feel like something's off with stats that bad.
    The hero is impossible for pub players to play as a support and gets steamrolled by the current meta given her lacking usefulness as a core before Radiance.

    She already had an "artifically low" winrate overall in ranked even in favourable metas because she both requires the ability to farm efficiently AND the presence of mind to not fuck over your team with song 24/7, but being a relatively low-impact hero until Radiance + 2-3 more items dooms the hero entirely in the current metagame.

  7. #21287
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    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    The hero is impossible for pub players to play as a support and gets steamrolled by the current meta given her lacking usefulness as a core before Radiance.

    She already had an "artifically low" winrate overall in ranked even in favourable metas because she both requires the ability to farm efficiently AND the presence of mind to not fuck over your team with song 24/7, but being a relatively low-impact hero until Radiance + 2-3 more items dooms the hero entirely in the current metagame.
    Except she's just fine with a aquila+treads+drum+diffusal build and works incredibly well as a teamfighting hero like that.

    People are just retarded and get focused on just one way of playing a hero, thinking all other ways are bad. Naga is fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  8. #21288
    I mean, I've just built Poor Man's Shield, Aquila, Treads, Radiance, and gone from there. No rushing the Radiance or anything, just playing teamplay Dota with a healthy dose of pushing, splitpushing and farming at large. Seemed pretty strong to me.

    But with her low winrate I'm wondering what's going on. She's got naturally high armor, a pretty decent disable with net, minus armor and song of the siren, and with the recent intelligence buff her abilities are fairly spammable w/ the aforementioned Aquila+Treads especially.

  9. #21289
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    I mean, I've just built Poor Man's Shield, Aquila, Treads, Radiance, and gone from there. No rushing the Radiance or anything, just playing teamplay Dota with a healthy dose of pushing, splitpushing and farming at large. Seemed pretty strong to me.

    But with her low winrate I'm wondering what's going on. She's got naturally high armor, a pretty decent disable with net, minus armor and song of the siren, and with the recent intelligence buff her abilities are fairly spammable w/ the aforementioned Aquila+Treads especially.
    Probably her ulti fucking over her team, honestly. Same reason SD has a low win rate despite being a very good hero.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  10. #21290
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Except she's just fine with a aquila+treads+drum+diffusal build and works incredibly well as a teamfighting hero like that.

    People are just retarded and get focused on just one way of playing a hero, thinking all other ways are bad. Naga is fine.
    She hardly works "incredibly well" so much as it means she doesn't have game-losingly little impact. Naga illusions have too long of a CD and take far too much damage to play her as a ghetto PL against anything other than outright inferior opponents. It's less useless than a Naga with brown boots and a Relic at 20 minutes, sure, but it hardly qualifies as good by any contorted stretch of the imagination.

    Naga is fine as a hero because support Naga is still pretty good, but core Naga is unbelievably niche right now.

    She also suffers from the same issue as any other hero that's basically entirely reliant on efficient farming to be useful - the average DotA player is fucking awful at farming and will have core items anywhere from 10-15 minutes later than they ought to.

  11. #21291
    She's an illusion hero, she gets wrecked by AoE nukes that are very central to the latest few patches. Especially since Lens got added, heroes like Lina get that much more damage to their spammable nuke to clear the naga illusions out.

  12. #21292
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lysah View Post
    She's an illusion hero, she gets wrecked by AoE nukes that are very central to the latest few patches. Especially since Lens got added, heroes like Lina get that much more damage to their spammable nuke to clear the naga illusions out.
    Also why I think CK is best as a utility hero rather than pos 1 hard carry. Even with his illusions being tankier and stronger than normal illusions, it's still incredibly easy to clear them out.

    It's weird. Illusions in DotA are at this weird place where they're both too good and too weak at the same time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  13. #21293
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    Just pick WD and faceroll games with OP as fuck base damage and coconut being arguably the best stun in the game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  14. #21294
    Herald of the Titans Maruka's Avatar
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    Or just position yourself in a good spot. All i do is support and i have zero issues with the patch. Also i agree WD is op as shit, has been for ages and will be the next fotm support.

  15. #21295
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maruka View Post
    Or just position yourself in a good spot. All i do is support and i have zero issues with the patch. Also i agree WD is op as shit, has been for ages and will be the next fotm support.
    Coconut is seriously fucking insane, I swear the jump range on it is bigger than the spell states. It's amazing how deadly that spell is despite only stunning for 1 sec and doing almost no damage. WD is already semi-popular for push strats because of his heal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I wish it was possible to enable an option that you wouldn't get matched with or against players queued together. Enemy team gets a 4k player that picks Invoker and facerolls our team while our 3900 player first pick randoms Rubick and goes mid vs Invoker with him... and then his idiot friend picks Wisp 2nd pick despite us having no need or synergy for it. To our Rubick's credit he did get fb on the Invoker but I think that's simply because the Invoker probably underestimated the damage potential of Rubick or maybe got too close and got thrown into the tower or something.

    Rubick ganked safelane a couple times and did pretty well too but it didn't matter because Invoker and Ember Spirit are completely fucking overpowered heroes and there's pretty much no stopping either of them. Urn of Shadows with Cold Snap is absurd and Ember Spirit in general just needs a huge beating with the nerfbat with how easily he can disjoint and avoid spells and damage while still doing a lot of damage.

    Whatever. If these pricks need to cheat to win games I'll do it too. Back to spamming Omniknight, I guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  16. #21296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Tell me im not fucking crazy but I literally cant stand this game-state, all these items added to boost damage and being a support is still as fucking shit as ever. Getting minced by enemies just gets easier every patch, and playing Chen isnt really an option to counter this.

    Only good thing I can genuinly think of in regards to supporting is wards stack, and I cant even remember how old that update is.
    Playing a support is better than ever. You just have to pick heroes that actually do stuff, understand when and where to make rotations, and not have awful positioning.

    Basically playing a support stops being something that sucks when you learn how to position yourself and actually get to cast your spells.

  17. #21297
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    Playing a support is better than ever. You just have to pick heroes that actually do stuff, understand when and where to make rotations, and not have awful positioning.
    I can't help but agree here. I feel as though I can do a lot more as a support now than I ever could before. You can tip the game in your teams favour very easy if you're playing it well, I personally feel more confident winning as a support now than I do playing Mid. Admitedly Mid has always been my least favourite lane, but its been the go-to lane for people who want to "carry scrubs" to easy wins for a very long time now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Tell me im not fucking crazy but I literally cant stand this game-state, all these items added to boost damage and being a support is still as fucking shit as ever. Getting minced by enemies just gets easier every patch, and playing Chen isnt really an option to counter this.
    Which supports are you playing? For most of them I consider the newer damage boosting items to be a waste of gold and would suggest a Veil instead. Its cheaper, has great stats, a fantastic build path and also allows your teammates to benefit from it.
    If you're having problems with getting just blown up by carries, Ghost Scepter has always been a fantastic item to consider and is very affordable for a support. Glimmer Cape is fantastic if you're having issues with nukes and is also a very flexible purchase.

  18. #21298
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    Mid is cancer and has been for a while. I know because players like me (i.e people who pick Bane, etc) are what make it cancer for mid players in the first place.

    There's a very real chance in pub games that you'll get roamed on by 2 supports mid for the first 10 minutes of the game and your entire team will refuse to use their Scrolls of Teleportation even when they dive you under T3s. Hell, you see that shit sometimes even in 6k average games. It's just not fun to be a mid player right now in a metagame that to a very large degree is focused on ruining the opponent's laning phase and where catching up via stacks is dead and gone.

    On the note of supports, Aether Lens is a ridiculous item even after the buildup nerf. It's single-handedly brought heroes like Lion and Venge back in to the metagame in full flourish, and arguably should be considered as a first item (disassembling mana boots for it) on almost every conventional support. Even CM is arguably better off getting Arcanes -> Aether than getting Tranquils, assuming the team comp can compensate for her iffy movespeed early.

  19. #21299
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    Reddit's so fucking stupid. I point out that support/roaming CK is really good and probably the best way to use him right now since he has too many liabilities as a pos 1 hard carry (too easy to clear the illusions even with them taking like half as much damage as normal illusions.) Get downvoted into negatives and some dumb cunt does the usual shitty attitude on Reddit thing.

    Then today, a front page post with hundreds of upvotes is about support CK and everyone's saying how good it is, etc etc etc. Honestly, up/down vote systems on websites are all retarded.
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/PizzaSHARK
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart View Post
    I also do landscaping on weekends with some mexican kid that I "hired". He's real good because he's 100% obedient to me and does everything I say while never complaining. He knows that I am the man in the relationship and is completely submissive towards me as he should be.
    Quote Originally Posted by SUH View Post
    Crissi the goddess of MMO, if i may. ./bow

  20. #21300
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    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Reddit's so fucking stupid. I point out that support/roaming CK is really good and probably the best way to use him right now since he has too many liabilities as a pos 1 hard carry (too easy to clear the illusions even with them taking like half as much damage as normal illusions.) Get downvoted into negatives and some dumb cunt does the usual shitty attitude on Reddit thing.

    Then today, a front page post with hundreds of upvotes is about support CK and everyone's saying how good it is, etc etc etc. Honestly, up/down vote systems on websites are all retarded.
    It's almost like the post you're so irate about was upvoted because it was eloquent and funny, not specifically because it addressed support CK. The guy could have written a guide to Pos 1 Rylai and it'd have been upvoted.

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