I Am Blood DPS

[Wih]

People keep saying this in this thread, and I just have to say nerf DKs ^_^

I'll be brutally honest, I haven't raided since my guild died doing heroic BoT/BWD. I assume tanking heroic mode fights requires tank gear, if so many people insist they do it in DPS gear, then perhaps there's a much larger issue with the death knight class going on =p

The issue is that Blood mastery scales differently to other tank masteries, so in old (soloing old stuff), nerfed (ie Heroic Firelands after the 30% nerf, or DS in the progressive nerf) or otherwise massively outgeared content, we scale better.
To add to this, DKs are the only tank with a mitigation mechanic that allows for player input to a large extent, in that if Blizzard expects us to be pushing 6 DS/min and we're pushing 12, we're gaining twice the benefit from Mastery that they intended. Also, pushing out twice the number of DSs tends to increase your damage by a massive amount.
To further add to this, a DPS stat (Haste) gives us a significant (tho, not as significant as "traditional" tank stats) survivability boost, by effecting the above figure.

So, between the massive buffs given to Blood in 4.3 (see one of my previous rants), and the above factors...you can use your own ability with playing the class well to mitigate the survivability loss from not wearing tank gear. It's no different to a shield tank capping hit/exp and stacking crit after CTC cap, except DKs have the added "benefit" of the (re)active mitigation model, whereas the other tanks do not.

When or if all tanks move to an active mitigation model, it's entirely possible that all tanks will work this way; instead of focusing on lowering damage incoming, they could instead focus on increasing their damage output. It's just at the moment DKs (and Druid, tho that's more based on them having access to synergistic Cat abilities) are best at utilising this method.

[Varyk]

Well, I don't see Blood dps as optimal, 6 of the DKs out of the 10 that killed Heroic Ragnaros were blood dps. So OP isn't the only one doing it.

They were blood for reasons not related to dps.

[CookieEater]

While I give props to pulling this off to the OP and few others who have, I can see this being killed come MoP.

And how? One easy fix: Vengeance does not stack unless in Blood Presence. Now, you are a serious threat issue to the raid. I would not be surprised if they did something along these lines for all tanks:

Paladin: Prot Spec + Righteous Fury
Warrior: Prot Spec + Defensive Stance
Druid: Guardian Spec + Bear Form
DKs: Blood Spec + Blood Presence
Monk: Brewmaster Spec + Drunken Monkey Form? (I dunno on that one, but sounds cool!)

Doesn't that already work that way for Druids?

[Judson]

Wow, people seems to be getting pretty angry because someone broke the norm and tried something different. I applaud you for trying something different from what the internet or other people say are correct. We need more of this and less of everyone being the same spec or geared. Try some new things. Cataclysm is pretty much over.

Except that he is not trying anything different and he is not breaking the norm. He stated in the OP that he was referring to LFR and Normal. What he is doing is the exact same thing that myself and a lot of other DK tanks are doing and that is blood spec + dps gear. The difference here is that he wants to do it while he isn't tanking which is going to keep him at around 20k less attack power than me.

---------- Post added 2012-03-14 at 05:33 PM ----------

While I give props to pulling this off to the OP

Except that he hasn't pulled anything off.

A dk tank in dps gear will beat a blood dk in dps gear that isn't tanking. He will not achieve any noticeable WoL records unless he is tanking and keeping that vengeance stacked. If he is just trying to have fun that is great, i'm hapy for him but if he really wants to see what blood dps can do he needs to try it while holding agro.

Warriors and Paladins are able to throw on dps gear while wearing their one handed wep + shield and tank like that in normal and LFR, are they not? So it's not just a DK thing.

---------- Post added 2012-03-14 at 05:48 PM ----------

I dunno I think blood dps could have a spot in a raid.

They do! Right in front of the boss. When you say "blood dps" what you are actually saying is "blood tank in dps gear"

There is some utility that may make the spec useful. Heroic Morchok for instance is often hard on guild that 3 heal is and putting your plate wearers and a blood dps as soaker on the solo healing side could be pretty handy.

Ewww 10man! Yes sir, you're right.. I could see this working. A blood tank in dps gear would be able to soak stomps just fine and may even keep enough vengeance to do some nice dps.

I wouldn't get too attached to it though, it's not what is intended out of the blood spec and it will likely get broken if it's too good.

I doubt it will be changed and if it is it won't be due to this. Vengeance is the key to all of this. The only way this would even be considered for change is if he found a way to maintain max vengeance while not tanking.

[announced]

gonna say this is awesome.. since veng stacks up instantly now and ds has so much raid damage this makes blood dps very competitive id say.. and fun.. id always laugh while doing 40k dps to mobs in my tanking spec.. even with tanking gear on and just spamming heartstrike.. im sure with pure dps reforges and a dps based spec u do way more.. but i digress.. id wanna see some logs for normal ds

[Raeion]

just go frost will u ? blood is ment for tanking

[Judson]

id wanna see some logs for normal ds

Go here:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...agon_Soul/dps/

Click on 25man Normal if you want. Then decide which boss you want to review. Don't click the boss name, click the "more" link at the bottom right of each boss's table. That "more" link will take you to a page where you can sort by class and spec. For Morchok it will result in this page for blood dks.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/..._Death_Knight/

While all most of those parses that you review will be of blood dks in dps gear.... the catch is that they are all likely tanking/holding agro for max vengeance.

[theyanger]

Go here:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/...agon_Soul/dps/

Click on 25man Normal if you want. Then decide which boss you want to review. Don't click the boss name, click the "more" link at the bottom right of each boss's table. That "more" link will take you to a page where you can sort by class and spec. For Morchok it will result in this page for blood dks.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/..._Death_Knight/

While all most of those parses that you review will be of blood dks in dps gear.... the catch is that they are all likely tanking/holding agro for max vengeance.

Which is why your suggestion is pointless in the first place? Logs of an actual 'dps' blood dk are what are desired, not tanks in DPS gear doing what they're supposed to.
Either way, as noted plenty of times this seems better than it probably 'should' be, but it's still not as good as frost or unholy so who cares.

[Judson]

Logs of an actual 'dps' blood dk are what are desired, not tanks in DPS gear doing what they're supposed to..

There is no such thing as a dps blood dk. There is only a blood/tank dk in dps gear. If you aren't holding agro for vengeance you're gimping yourself.

The terminology is what is leading to your confusing.. stop calling them "dps blood dks" and start calling them "blood dk tank in dps gear"

Before you ask "why" I will go on to explain. If you have two equally skilled blood dks in equal dps gear, one is tanking the other is trying to not tank and just dps... the one tanking will out dps the one not tanking EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

---------- Post added 2012-03-16 at 01:31 PM ----------

The only exception would be if you could find a way to keep max vengeance while not tanking.

[Nivrax]

So, I made a small experiment on alt run with gemming for haste instead of strengh. Results are... pretty good.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ktilm2xw8b3k991a/
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...anthe/advanced

However... I have to agree that unless you tank boss, you won't pull that dps. Even with max Vengance all the time, only thing you gain is some secondary stats that you can free from hard expertise capping. Also, using any presence other than Blood, you loose so much from not being able to Rune Strike and missing faster rune regen from talent (1 sec GCD from UH is only good if you actually have abities to hit, not waiting for runes cooldown).

Imo if you are doing content where dps geared tank won't be globalled, just tank it in the dps gear. On any content where bosses actually hurt and survivality is issue, play UH/Frost which will pull few thousands more. Unless you like keeping your group behind - I'm sure people who are min-maxing and prepotting enjoy that all their collective work is nulled by one person.

[xtramuscle]

My 2 cents (from a Blood DK [tank] who regularly ranks on WOL)

Blood does have great DPS potential, but by not tanking you are limiting that, by vengance starving yourself.
I see (and with good reason) you undervalue the 4set bonus, as you rate mastery as your lowest secondary stat. Does this mean you will disregard the ilv (thus additional strength) on 410 HC tier, for more favorable secondary stats on the 397 off pieces (again gimping yourself)?
At LFR/Normal level this may be competitive, but at true endgame (HC Gear) this wont be viable compared to a competent frost/unholy DK.

[fizzbob]

Wow, people seems to be getting pretty angry because someone broke the norm and tried something different. I applaud you for trying something different from what the internet or other people say are correct. We need more of this and less of everyone being the same spec or geared. Try some new things. Cataclysm is pretty much over.

if people have been around wow forever, this is just old news with the same syndrome: i'm different so i'm special

different isn't special, it's different. in this case it's inferior damage production in a spec that is meant for tanking. the game is tuned around certain things like this spec not being for damage while the other TWO are just for damage

this is like mage or hunter tanking. different. not optimal, not viable just because you completely outgear something or have people to take up your slack

this game isn't meant to be flexible in this way. it's creating slack. you're doing worse because others can take up your slack. you have that right, you don't have the right to call it viable.

[toxic13]

You are wrong with both statements. The part I underlined is an exaggeration. "Far suprior" would have to constitue they are doing 30% or more damage. They do not. Secondly, Blood plays largely different than Frost. It is not vegas lights at the wack-a-mole machiene that Frost is. My numbers I currently witness are 390ilvl (388*). One pvp item due to it being better dps than set LFR piece in breakdown. When I put out as good and even better numbers than anyoen of their similarly geared or beter DPSers, especially melee... turning me down is just biased foolishness (see bigotry). It would be no different than you turning down a Frost Mage beating out your Arcane Mage in dmg. Does he have to play better than the Arcane? Argueably, yes. You still wisley take the person doing more dmg.

I was reading all of this for lols because i was bored and reading comments, but honestly I don't mind that your playing a game the way you want too, it's a game, we got you. But by looking at your armory you only have lfr and have not even cleared normal ds, i am by no means knocking that, but someone actually previously pointed it out earlier that your not running with top of the line players it seems, if your doing 2/3x dmg over any1..thats really not good. In a heroic raid great dps is the difference of a mere % or 2, you are boasting on doing 100%+. I come to these forums for being being bored and wanting to read interesting dk forums posts and comments, i especially pay attention to posts by those raiders that are high on end heroic progression bosses or who are already done 8/8hc. Again it's a game, thats great that you play it your style, but honestly "Far superior" does not even explain the difference in the dps by being frost/uh over a blood spec in heroic raid aside from gimmicks like ultrax with absurd drw uptime. So keep doing your thing, just don't tell the world that blood dps blows frost and uh out of the water by miles

[Acidd06]

Do you have any logs? Would like to see some

Edit: Nvm found some logs. You're dps isn't really that great at all you did 26k on ultrax in LFR. And 16k on Bealroc Meh...

[mihaitha]

Let me tell you why Blood DPS is and always will be vastly inferior to any other DPS spec:
1. in order to increase your damage, you need to receive damage. If that is not possible (a boss that only hits the tank) your DPS will be crap.
2. a DPS tree includes abilities that give you a damage boost for a short period of time (like e.g. Unholy Frenzy or Pillar of Frost, to compare Blood with the other DK specs). Blood does not have that. The only thing you may consider a DPS cooldown is bone shield (1% more damage wee!)
3. the damage increase you get from talents for your DPS abilities are considerably lower than what you get for a pure DPS spec. There is no increased damage to your RP dump ability (death coil only as you can't use rune strike unless you're in Blood Presence or you dodge or parry - which won't happen as the boss is not hitting you), Death Strike does indeed have a significant boost, but heart strike, which is your highest DPS and damage per rune ability, doesn't.

Bottom line: blood isn't made to do damage. It's made to do around half the damage of a DPS spec in the same gear, and all your cooldowns and passives are there to increase your survivability, not your damage. This is why it's a tanking spec.

P.S. I don't know where this "Blood DPS" trend started, but I'm seeing more and more of these douches running around in 5mans doing 10-15k damage (with 3 stacks of Luck of the Draw ofc) and moaning if they get hate.

[Bisque]

i see the "blood dps" as more of a jest, joke , side spec sort of like the old shockadins, BM pets tanking. Something to do for fun, if the guild your in, 5 man your in permits it, but nothing something that is serious.

[xytech]

I just pugged a DS10 normal, my first time in there. We didn't have quite enough dps for it so I went blood dps (as tank). Went full frost gear (387 ilvl) and gurthalak, took first impale in blood presence, then changed to unholy presence so I wouldn't out aggro the other tank. Was at steady 42k dps (first time ever trying). Just wonder if this is decent, not sure what dps people usually do at normal madness.

Edit: Also tried LFR, but as full tank taking both impales (387 ilvl) and got to 47k dps. Guessing my dps as blood dps sucked then -,-

[mihaitha]

There you have it. Doing less DPS in DPS gear than when tanking clearly makes blood DPS a hardly "viable" option.

[xytech]

There you have it. Doing less DPS in DPS gear than when tanking clearly makes blood DPS a hardly "viable" option.

Madness 25 lfr vs madness 10 normal though.

+ 0 experience as blood dps but quite used to blood tank.

[hellboyy]

if u spam heartstrike in dungeons of course u r going to do more dps than ppl farming dungeons for gear.