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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Althire View Post
    Here is a possible replacement spec but requires testing and I can't have a look until 1.2 if it is viable but if it is I will make a new guide or amend this one.

    As 1.2 seems to be nerfing the hybrid spec by not allowing presence of mind to affect Tele wave the next best spec I have come up with is this Hybrid 0/16/25 this plays the same as the other spec but instead of casting Tele wave on presence of mind procs you cast disturbance and hope it procs Tidal Force for your instant Tele Wave with this spec you now only loose the extra damage buff from mental scaring.

    So all in all it is the same spec just a little drop in damage from dots this is only a rough idea as the may change more with the spec as am not sure if the amount of points you need to climb each tree will remain the same.

    Spec is also untested but best bet for our current build with minimal change.
    I belive if you go for telekinetic momentum, you'll do even more damage, its only 3% increase in the end, but those two are your main damagin spells.
    in addition, is focused insight really worth anything? especially without physic absorption?
    Last edited by moff; 2012-03-19 at 10:06 AM.

  2. #22
    High Overlord Althire's Avatar
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    Yes but to get there you sacrifice too much from the balance tree the best possible spec to include telekinetic momentum would look like this hybrid 0/23/18 and imo you loose too much from force suppression, drain thoughts and assertion not to mention the utility you loose from dropping containment if your going to go with telekinetic momentum you may as well spec for full tele to get the other good things from the tree no point in loosing so much out of balance as you will be seriously gimped.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-19 at 10:08 AM ----------

    Or you could go with this hybrid 0/23/18 to keep containment but then you sacrifice knock back as well as the damage loss mentioned above.
    Last edited by Althire; 2012-03-19 at 11:41 AM.

  3. #23
    I am using this version of 23/18 and I am quite happy with it
    http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#60...dRrhZcMcRsMz.1

  4. #24
    High Overlord Althire's Avatar
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    Are you playing PVE or PVP as you build has a lot of PVP stuff in it.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-19 at 10:28 AM ----------

    As this guide and all specs in it that I am looking at is strictly PVE and also trying to maximise damage for PVE with spec

  5. #25
    yes I do, but most of the PVP stuff has also a PVE component
    telekineitic effusuon for instance is the much better for force regen than inner strength in your build

    also, I fail to see why you pick focused insight over psychic barrier, focused insight is just worthless, especially witthout psychic absorption

    for pvp, my build is much better, for pve, I am not sure, your 16/25 is certainly a good build and viable for pve, but I'd have to use the damage log to see if its really better than my 23/18. I saw calculations from sithwarrior.com that support my build, but I guess thats not too reliable.

  6. #26
    High Overlord Althire's Avatar
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    I just would not personally use any of these in a PVE spec Kinetic Collapse, Force Wake, Telekinetic Defense as these are more use in a PVP build and do not add damage to the spec I would always go for Psychic Barrier over Focused Insight I just miss counted how many to move to next tire in other build it was a mistake.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-19 at 11:15 AM ----------

    Here is looking at my 0/16/25 against your 0/23/18 at what you will gain or loose and I will be looking at this from a PVE perspective.

    Loosing 7 points in the balance tree you will loose DPS from Drain Thoughts and Assertion you will also loose damage from the first 10 ticks of your dots by loosing Force Suppression and for this loss you gain better force management from Telekinetic Effusion and a 30% chance that Disturbance or Telekinetic Wave will hit a second time for 30% of it's normal damage with Telekinetic Momentum.

    So in reality you are trading damage for a 30% chance at 30% damage and an extra re-gen mechanic that is not needed as if the spec is played correctly Psychic Barrier should be enough for re-gen.
    Last edited by Althire; 2012-03-19 at 11:18 AM.

  7. #27
    yup, absolutely correct

    the question ist how much damage you really get in the end from Drain Thoughts, Assertion and Force Suppression?
    And how much you get from momentum.

    the most important skill, pve-wise, is Telekinetic Effusion though, I played a full madness sorceror for most of my time, and maybe I played it really wrong, but I was out of force in most boss battles before the boss hit 50%, and at that point I had to spam force lightning a lot withhout a decent rotation, maybe I did it wrong, sure, but with Telekinetic Effusion you will never be below 3/4 force, I can guarantee that, and you can do any rotation you wish.

    again, I am not trying to sell anything here, with the test server up tough, I'd really see some combat logs.

  8. #28
    High Overlord Althire's Avatar
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    Only thing I can think of is that you must have been doing something wrong as I don't have any issue with keeping my force up without Telekinetic Effusion and using Tele throw (lightening) to keep up your force you should not have had an issue unless you just were not casting tele throw (lightening) enough and also casting project (shock) is a way to run out of force and not do high DPS as this ability is very inefficient for force and damage ratios you should only cast it when you really have to maybe even never.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Althire View Post
    Here is a possible replacement spec but requires testing and I can't have a look until 1.2 if it is viable but if it is I will make a new guide or amend this one.

    As 1.2 seems to be nerfing the hybrid spec by not allowing presence of mind to affect Tele wave the next best spec I have come up with is this Hybrid 0/16/25 this plays the same as the other spec but instead of casting Tele wave on presence of mind procs you cast disturbance and hope it procs Tidal Force for your instant Tele Wave with this spec you now only loose the extra damage buff from mental scaring.

    So all in all it is the same spec just a little drop in damage from dots this is only a rough idea as the may change more with the spec as am not sure if the amount of points you need to climb each tree will remain the same.

    Spec is also untested but best bet for our current build with minimal change.
    I think you're confused. First you have been editing your post as people have pointed out how wrong you are about stat weights etc. but heres the big thing you are now building a spec around casting disturbance with your proc's, Which you should not have been doing before in the first place. Its simple math that a 20% increased damage disturbance does not hit harder then half of a 3seconds throws damage. this is assuming no alacrity when your throw takes the full 3secs to channel and your instant takes 1.5gcd. Add any alacrity and you get even more wrong then you were before! as the throw channels faster and the gcd remains unchanged

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Althire View Post
    Only thing I can think of is that you must have been doing something wrong as I don't have any issue with keeping my force up without Telekinetic Effusion and using Tele throw (lightening) to keep up your force you should not have had an issue unless you just were not casting tele throw (lightening) enough and also casting project (shock) is a way to run out of force and not do high DPS as this ability is very inefficient for force and damage ratios you should only cast it when you really have to maybe even never.
    Of course you cast lightning/tele throw all the time, what else? its the only spammable spell
    but if wrath/presence of mind procs I use lightning strike(which aborts lightnings mana reg), I cast the dots and death field whenever they run out/are ready.

    If thats wrong, thats my fault, but I throw out anything that does damage whenever its ready. and in the mantime I cast force lightning/tele throw.

  11. #31
    High Overlord Althire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubblinya View Post
    I think you're confused. First you have been editing your post as people have pointed out how wrong you are about stat weights etc. but heres the big thing you are now building a spec around casting disturbance with your proc's, Which you should not have been doing before in the first place. Its simple math that a 20% increased damage disturbance does not hit harder then half of a 3seconds throws damage. this is assuming no alacrity when your throw takes the full 3secs to channel and your instant takes 1.5gcd. Add any alacrity and you get even more wrong then you were before! as the throw channels faster and the gcd remains unchanged
    For you first point the edit was due to finding out the info on accuracy after the fact I made the original guide and I had just not updated it I done that as soon as it was pointed out this was an error on my behalf as when I wrote the guide I was still under the assumption that sages required some accuracy but yes I was wrong and I updated it and I also admitted that.

    On your second point I don't think you are quite getting what I am trying to get out of this spec, it is not to start using disturbance as your main cast I know this would be futile as the damage disturbance does is very low and yes my tele throw probably doubles the damage of a disturbance.

    The whole idea of it is to keep the spec mobile like the other spec was and trying to keep the use of tele wave but this time using it from tidal force procs which are brought on by disturbance now the only time you would cast disturbance would be when your mind crush was on CD and hope for the proc on tidal force.

    This was just an attempt to try and keep a similar hybrid spec to what I have been playing and have came to enjoy all of this is only my opinion and and have put it on here to get an idea of what everyone else thinks of it and if it would work or not but with out 1.2 being live I can't test this or get an idea of how it will play.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-20 at 08:23 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by moff View Post
    Of course you cast lightning/tele throw all the time, what else? its the only spammable spell
    but if wrath/presence of mind procs I use lightning strike(which aborts lightnings mana reg), I cast the dots and death field whenever they run out/are ready.

    If thats wrong, thats my fault, but I throw out anything that does damage whenever its ready. and in the mantime I cast force lightning/tele throw.
    Sorry am not saying you are wrong per se what you are doing sound exactly what you should be doing but with this build from time to time to not run out of force some times you need to add an extra tele throw (lightening) in from time to time also so on certain boss fights you can find little quirks to help re-gen just a little more.

    Some examples of this are the SOA fight third stage you can cast tele throw (lightening) on him while he is immune to damage and there are no mind traps up or on the fabricator you can use it on him when he is taking low damage to help re-gen it's just about picking your moments with when you can afford to do slightly lower DPS to fit a bit more re-gen in or where you need to burn the boss down.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormcall View Post
    Sadly this build is getting hit hard in 1.2. Presence of Mind no longer affects Telekinetic Wave, only Disturbance and Mind Crush:-/
    Less so than most people think. It will still be the superior single target dps spec for Sages in 1/12/28 form, it's just very close to full Balance and full Telekinetics. On the plus side, its mobile DPS improves with even stronger Project. This makes Balance more of a control , hybrid more of a mobile and telekinetics more of an AoE/burst build, while their single target dps is too close to eachother to really matter anymore. Long story short, the change should mean more variation in sage builds in the future.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Althire View Post
    For you first point the edit was due to finding out the info on accuracy after the fact I made the original guide and I had just not updated it I done that as soon as it was pointed out this was an error on my behalf as when I wrote the guide I was still under the assumption that sages required some accuracy but yes I was wrong and I updated it and I also admitted that.

    On your second point I don't think you are quite getting what I am trying to get out of this spec, it is not to start using disturbance as your main cast I know this would be futile as the damage disturbance does is very low and yes my tele throw probably doubles the damage of a disturbance.

    The whole idea of it is to keep the spec mobile like the other spec was and trying to keep the use of tele wave but this time using it from tidal force procs which are brought on by disturbance now the only time you would cast disturbance would be when your mind crush was on CD and hope for the proc on tidal force.

    This was just an attempt to try and keep a similar hybrid spec to what I have been playing and have came to enjoy all of this is only my opinion and and have put it on here to get an idea of what everyone else thinks of it and if it would work or not but with out 1.2 being live I can't test this or get an idea of how it will play.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-20 at 08:23 AM ----------



    Sorry am not saying you are wrong per se what you are doing sound exactly what you should be doing but with this build from time to time to not run out of force some times you need to add an extra tele throw (lightening) in from time to time also so on certain boss fights you can find little quirks to help re-gen just a little more.

    Some examples of this are the SOA fight third stage you can cast tele throw (lightening) on him while he is immune to damage and there are no mind traps up or on the fabricator you can use it on him when he is taking low damage to help re-gen it's just about picking your moments with when you can afford to do slightly lower DPS to fit a bit more re-gen in or where you need to burn the boss down.
    Well thats my point, you made a "how to" guide and listed accuracy as your top stat when accuracy does as much for a dps sage as it does for a healing sage, nothing. Not to mention the other ones were out of order aswell but the first mistake was sort of shocking

    And your guide says in the roatation if you get a proc you should cast disturbance, but now even you agree here that you probably shouldnt. just to clarify it doesnt even come close to doing throw DPCT even when proced at +20% all it does it eat your force and lower your damage

    I am pointing out these disturbing errors because when people come to forums like these looking for information and see such a well layed out post that is even stickied they take it as fact even though it is extremely wrong. So sorry for sounding so blunt but you sir are in need of a guide to read yourself, you shouldnt be writing them.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-20 at 09:01 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by tufy1 View Post
    Less so than most people think. It will still be the superior single target dps spec for Sages in 1/12/28 form, it's just very close to full Balance and full Telekinetics. On the plus side, its mobile DPS improves with even stronger Project. This makes Balance more of a control , hybrid more of a mobile and telekinetics more of an AoE/burst build, while their single target dps is too close to eachother to really matter anymore. Long story short, the change should mean more variation in sage builds in the future.
    It was only the top dps spec by small ammounts and only in high movement fights pre 1.2 so how is it still going to be close to a spec that was already better then it during a patchwerk fight when it is loosing the one thing that made it good? Also how can it be close to BOTH balance and telekinetics when both these specs are not even close to each other atm and are not changing?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Althire View Post
    Sorry am not saying you are wrong per se what you are doing sound exactly what you should be doing but with this build from time to time to not run out of force some times you need to add an extra tele throw (lightening) in from time to time also so on certain boss fights you can find little quirks to help re-gen just a little more.

    Some examples of this are the SOA fight third stage you can cast tele throw (lightening) on him while he is immune to damage and there are no mind traps up or on the fabricator you can use it on him when he is taking low damage to help re-gen it's just about picking your moments with when you can afford to do slightly lower DPS to fit a bit more re-gen in or where you need to burn the boss down.
    correct, but most bosses do not offer such possibilities and I believe you lose some serious dps after a few minute. thats why I think my build will not be too bad for endgame pve.
    I just really like to see some logs on the dummy for all viable specs over 10min.

  15. #35
    High Overlord Althire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubblinya View Post
    Well thats my point, you made a "how to" guide and listed accuracy as your top stat when accuracy does as much for a dps sage as it does for a healing sage, nothing. Not to mention the other ones were out of order aswell but the first mistake was sort of shocking

    And your guide says in the roatation if you get a proc you should cast disturbance, but now even you agree here that you probably shouldnt. just to clarify it doesnt even come close to doing throw DPCT even when proced at +20% all it does it eat your force and lower your damage

    I am pointing out these disturbing errors because when people come to forums like these looking for information and see such a well layed out post that is even stickied they take it as fact even though it is extremely wrong. So sorry for sounding so blunt but you sir are in need of a guide to read yourself, you shouldnt be writing them.
    Accuracy being the main stat was the only issue with that the rest of the stats the order was right and as stated before I thought accuracy was needed once pointed out I changed this I was wrong.

    About casting disturbance have actually read the guide fully as the only time I mention to cast disturbance is when you are moving and everything else is on CD so rather than not doing damage as that would be a DPS loss you cast disturbance.

    Until you can stop with the personal attacks as I don't know you and all I have done here is put together a guide about a spec that I have been running and have had a lot of positive feed back on other forums than this I suggest you take a step back and read the guide so you understand then have a think before you post again.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-20 at 10:09 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by moff View Post
    correct, but most bosses do not offer such possibilities and I believe you lose some serious dps after a few minute. thats why I think my build will not be too bad for endgame pve.
    I just really like to see some logs on the dummy for all viable specs over 10min.
    Yeah as I am hoping for some info on how these run from target dummies and logs would be wonderful and I will be looking into it as soon as 1.2 is live both specs may be very viable post 1.2 or even full TK or balance may become more viable we just don't know yet.

    Also agree not all bosses have such quirks and that is why I enjoy this spec the balancing act of force re-gen and damage.

    But again each to his own.

  16. #36
    High Overlord Althire's Avatar
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    Can a mod plz remove this from the SWTOR Class, General, and Technical Guides sticky as this guide is no longer viable I will be updating it in the future just need to play around with new builds.

    And get my head round 1.2

  17. #37
    no you're still good, I actually tested "your" build (the 1/12/28 is pretty much the standard now) and did roughly 300 dps more than with "mine" or any other build.
    you can take out the point from chain lightning and put it somewhere else, the 1% crit in the healing tree perhaps, because chain lightning is useless now.

    apart from that, this is no doubt the best way to dps right now. sadly its very boring.

  18. #38
    Keyboard Turner Jean Luc Jean's Avatar
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    How come there is no Shadow Guide here?

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Jean Luc Jean View Post
    How come there is no Shadow Guide here?
    Cause nobody here has felt like writing one most likely.

  20. #40
    High Overlord Althire's Avatar
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    I have updated this guide and made it in a new post it can be found here can a mod please delete this old one .

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