1. #1
    Stood in the Fire h3lladvocate's Avatar
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    Healing H Spine 10

    I've been trying to find information on this for like two weeks, and while I've found bits and scraps, it hasn't been much, or it's been all shadow guides, so I'm making a thread!

    So, we've been working on this for about a little more than a week, and while our major concern right now is baddy dps not being able to down the tendon in 2 rounds (really guys... 10% nerf + 24% hotfix...), but assuming they get their heallstuff together for this week, I want to make sure I don't become the baddy healer and make healing be the next progression barrier. I've been trying to figure out what spec/reforge is best for 10 man. I've been rocking a Holy priest build with heavy reforged crit, and it seems to be really good for healing searing plasma (I was about 3 million more healing that the other two healers), but is that really what I should be doing? I am also the one in charge of dispelling since 3% heal glyph plus I understand the mechanic and how to bounce it around.

    Our healing comp is two holy pally's and me. I can play Disc/Holy equally well, but prefer Disc. I am quite geared, 404 ilvl, have 4pc t12 and t13 if one of those are exceptionally good for the fight. I've mainly been rocking Serenity chakra and rolling renews on all the debuffed people, using single target heals to refresh it and top them off quickly if amalg is bout to go BOOM. Then I switch to AoE mode for the exploding dude and if I need to hymn, which I usually do on flips, but we've only seen like a handful of those...

    Also, how long is the fight supposed to go? The one "good" attempt we had, were were on the second burn of the second tendon before the add tank died and that was about 11 mins in according to DBM. That about right, cause the add tank was taking a beating? Or does he need to do better job kiting/clean up for flips?

    Thanks for any advice!

    Armory if you care:http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...Faera/advanced
    <Rustlemania> - 10 Man Raiding - 12/14 H SoO, 13/13 H ToT, 16/16H T14

    Faera - 90 Priest - Non-Disc/Disc PvE

  2. #2
    My armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...eriel/advanced
    Most recent WoL on spine: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=12323&e=12987

    My current spec was the same for Spine except I had 2/2 veiled shadows instead of Darkness. With Veiled shadows you want to use fiend on the first tendon first time, 2nd tendon 1st time (if it's off CD, depends on your DPS, if not or it comes off cd mid tendon then use straight afterwards on amalgamation), and 3rd plate between 1st & 2nd time (use on amalgamation). Use HoH with the 2nd fiend, and use volcanic potion with the 3rd, nothing for the 1st.

    some posts I made on official forums relating to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Halaberiel
    I managed to finish spine on 80%+ last week & still ranked top 10 :S I think most healing issues on that fight are due to bad tactics or slow DPS. Just always kill bloods & you shouldn't have problems.

    - First tendon down > AOE bloods > stand between fire > Barrel roll cast > move into fire
    - Stop all dmg on bloods after barrel roll until amalg is low then start cleaving, if bloods aren't dead by time amalg is 10% or so then start AOE. Make sure ALL bloods are dead by the time amalg is on 2-3% then get stacks. Note: ALL bloods must be dead.
    - Same as above after 1st go on 2nd tendon
    - 2nd tendon down > AOE bloods > use major healing CD (we use DH/SLT & personals ie tree/sham 4set/PI) > Barrel roll cast > move into fire > move to mid
    - CLEAVE BLOODS FROM THE START, don't let them build up, just kill them as they come slowly. Try to kill ALL bloods again as before. This is something a lot of groups don't seem to do, they just let the bloods pile up for some reason.
    - After 3rd tendon 1st time cleave some bloods down till the numbers get too high, then start kiting. We had two paladin tanks, so they'd holy wrath aoe stun, then the tank with bloods would go to the other side & AOE stun, and repeat. If your kiting is good then the tanks shouldn't take much dmg really.
    - Note: make sure your DPS/Healers all stack on the amalg tank at this point so he can get aggro quick. Very little raid damage if this is done correctly.

    Hell if things go well the dmg on the 3rd plate really isn't that high. It's just all about controlling the add kiting & who has aggro. Tanks gotta make sure dps/healers don't get aggro, that's the major cause for death in this phase. Biggest "heart attack" moment on this fight is the 3rd platform barrel roll, if you get through that it's not so hard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Halaberiel
    Get veiled shadows & do save fiend for tendons, you can do decent DPS if you do this. Just DPS tendons while they're up, let the pally/druid in your raid heal everyone/dispel debuffs.

    You can't use PI more than once per platform. Trust me, I tried to find a timing that works but it's just not possible. If you use it on CD you'll get more casts out but you won't have it when you really need it.

    For 10man do get atonement, although it's possible without I personally think it's better. You have more burst healing when required & can do some decent DPS. Plus atonement heals work well with the debuff, usually hitting the correct targets. Make sure you maximise Archangel uptime while having it when really required. For instance you can have it up for every exploding amalgamation & barrel roll. Time it so you get your evangelism stacks on the tendon or just before.

    Another thing I forgot to mention, kill the corruption while the amalgamation is exploding. Doing this means you don't have to wait for grip timers & you won't get a grip mid tendon.
    So yea I would go atonement disc, with reforges focusing on haste > crit >>> mastery. I had 23 of both haste & crit for this fight, along with around 12-3 mastery and 3.4k+ spirit with HoU. I think my spirit was a bit overkill, but really it depends how hectic your last plate is. Going by your armory I'd say you have at least 800 spirit too much. Let your other healers deal with the debuffs, you should spend almost all your time casting PoH to soak up all the little bits of dmg + mitigate debuff targets dmg (less direct dmg they take the less their HP will decrease - most dangerous thing on this fight is low HP targets with searing plasma debuffs). Disc priests are unique in their aegis stacking ability & it's really strong on this fight. Check the logs, I cast GHeal a fair bit but there are priests that literally get by without casting a single greater heal.

    You can kill it with more than 3 attempts per plate, especially if it's just the first one you fail at. It's only really the 3rd plate that's impossible to do 3 times (well "impossible" I'm sure it's doable but not by most).

    The only tricky part healing wise is the last barrel roll. You want to go into that with PI + AA while the group is killing corruptions & you're spamming PoH (even if everyone is full HP). When PI / AA is almost up, or you're about to barrel roll stand to the side & cast DH (it will thus benefit from PI etc), then when DH is finished and/or barrel roll cast is almost finished move into the fire.

    --

    Cooldown wise we use SLT roll, bubble 1st time, tranq 2nd time on each tendon. I guess you can use Aura mastery for the tendon 1st/2nd then use bubble on barrel roll.
    Last edited by Halaberiel; 2012-03-12 at 08:44 PM.

  3. #3
    Herald of the Titans Yilar's Avatar
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    The above poster pretty much nailed it. Fiend + holy/smite doing tendon and then resume healing afterwards. If you don't have a lot of debuffs don't be affraid to just nuke the amalgamation, attonement healing is pretty mana efficient.

    Also i'd say the fight is suppose to take 11-13 mins depending on your strategy. If you can't kill the tendon in 2 ups you should wipe and go again till you can.

    Also you don't have to kite till like the 5th tendon or so, just tank/kill them off till then.

  4. #4
    Stood in the Fire h3lladvocate's Avatar
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    Yea, if I go disc, I will definitely reforge out of a bunch of that spirit. Right now I'm set up for holy, so spirit is my best friend. Unfortuently, I'll still probably be stuck on dispel duty, but that shouldn't be a big deal. The only time spam dispelling really matters is the beginning to try and get those buffs on the tank, after that, I really dont care who gets the buffs, so I can delay dispelling for shielding/PoH. Hopefully well clear 6/8 tonight quickly to get back on this tonight to try new stuff out.
    <Rustlemania> - 10 Man Raiding - 12/14 H SoO, 13/13 H ToT, 16/16H T14

    Faera - 90 Priest - Non-Disc/Disc PvE

  5. #5
    Don't spam dispel to get buffs on the right people lol, that's a total waste of mana :<

  6. #6
    do u really think its better to spam PoH to soak extra damage instead of greater heal if there is healing rain/efflorescence available? it just makes so little sense, but i'm completely lost on this fight, i'll try anything.

    i've been struggling a lot with mana, having trouble proccing raptures (grip rarely deals damage, shields expire on tanks) at the start of the fight and at least with gheal and inner focus i get more casts for free than when spamming prayer of healing. i run about 2100 base spirit + heart + tsunami and i eat tons of innervates with overhealing as low as 9% (ofc mainly due to the nature of the fight). i do use my shadowfiend effectively with hymn (admitedaly not talented). so i'm not sure what is it really, maybe i panic too much and throw too many shields when people get low with debuffs.

    also i always die first ;s on heavy aoe, i think its phisical dmg and i run inner will so >.<? so i was thinking about switching atonement to focused will. is it a good idea to drop inspiration if i have a resto shammy just for this fight?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by CodeMonkey View Post
    do u really think its better to spam PoH to soak extra damage instead of greater heal if there is healing rain/efflorescence available? it just makes so little sense, but i'm completely lost on this fight, i'll try anything.

    i've been struggling a lot with mana, having trouble proccing raptures (grip rarely deals damage, shields expire on tanks) at the start of the fight and at least with gheal and inner focus i get more casts for free than when spamming prayer of healing. i run about 2100 base spirit + heart + tsunami and i eat tons of innervates with overhealing as low as 9% (ofc mainly due to the nature of the fight). i do use my shadowfiend effectively with hymn (admitedaly not talented). so i'm not sure what is it really, maybe i panic too much and throw too many shields when people get low with debuffs.

    also i always die first ;s on heavy aoe, i think its phisical dmg and i run inner will so >.<? so i was thinking about switching atonement to focused will. is it a good idea to drop inspiration if i have a resto shammy just for this fight?
    Effloresence / healing rain is already down, that's not enough to heal all the damage the raid is taking. If people are literally taking no damage, and only one person as a debuff, then yea don't bother. The thing is, with no PoH & only direct healing everyone stays high HP, except for people for debuffs. They slowly tick down until searing plasma is removed. This is dangerous & absorbs prevent it from happening. The idea is to keep everyone high HP, even those with searing plasma. It's why when you watch videos, groups HP with disc priests is much more stable than without.

    Aside from perhaps the first plate I've never had this problem with shields. Even on the first plate my shield is used on the tank with amalg & doesn't expire. Depending on tactic (if you kill all bloods at once or over time) your shield will probably break faster on the blood tank, he actually takes a lot more damage until the amalg gets stacks.

    When I first did the fight I believe I had around 3.2k-3.3k spirit, so around the same as you have now (incl trinkets). AA returns a HUGE amount of mana over an entire fight though, check my last log it returned 137k. That's more mana returned than I even got from shadow fiend (although I didn't use it a 3rd time but could of done, just had too much mana LOL). How many times are you using fiend? You should be using it 3 times, if you're not then get Veiled Shadows so that you can (timing depends on DPS). You should seriously consider going atonement if you're not already.

    Prayer of healing heavy play will use less mana than greater heal spamming. By PoH heavy I don't mean spamming it, I mean PoH, holy fire smite smite, PoH, Shield, Penance, greater heal, greater heal, PoH, holy fire, smite, AA, PoH, PoH, PoH, PoH. At least I tend to interweave between the two, using AA to power out big PoH casts. Make sure you penance debuff players that you greater heal, I usually wait till there are like 3 ppl with debuffs and heal the newest one. I mean you're 3 healers you don't need everyone on debuffs all the time anyway. The problem with greater heal spamming is you kind of get into the habbit of literally just spamming greater heal & nothing else, and that tends to burn mana fast. Smiting/holy fire is way way WAY more mana efficient & heals for almost the same amount if you have it glyphed.

    Why are people getting low with debuffs? You say grip rarely deals damage, so the only other things that can deal constant damage are the bloods exploding & melee (w/ occasional dmg when the amalg exploding but then you should have healer CDs). Melee dmg shouldn't be an issue if your tanks are doing their job, and people shouldn't go low from explosions if you're stacking aegis (USE PRAYER OF HEALING MORE) properly. Seriously, if your grips are going well, and the bloods aren't meleeing the raid, then no one should die on this boss. I shield perhaps 1 low HP person on exploding amalg occasionally, but usually no one needs it.

    I run inner will also, never have problems. Make sure your searing plasma debuff is removed very fast with binding heal & you should have no problems. Don't think I've ever died before the 3rd platform on this fight, and those deaths were all to being meleed. Don't drop inspiration, as you said it's physical damage so reduced damage is good on anyone in the raid, tank or not.

  8. #8
    thanks for all the insight m8, you've been the most helpful and it all makes much more sense now.
    much appreciated! <3

  9. #9
    The Patient
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    Reforge out of all spirit and go crit > haste > mast > spirit.

    Do not GH a target without grace due to renewed hope. Running 36% crit is just sweet. [10man spine hc at least]

    On last plate I suggest blanketing the raid with PW:S and starting to aoe all bloods after 5th tendon burn.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Halaberiel View Post
    I run inner will also, never have problems.
    I'm not that pro but may I ask why this is? From your description of how to heal it seems instant casts aren't the major tools here and in the log you posted I did some rough estimation that instant casts were somewhere around 30% of all casts. I suppose 531 spellpower isn't that much (4-5% something at 12k sp) but still. Is that really enough to justify not using IF? Thanks for sharing advice on the fight.
    Last edited by Dinninit; 2012-03-17 at 03:38 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Dinninit View Post
    I'm not that pro but may I ask why this is? From your description of how to heal it seems instant casts aren't the major tools here and in the log you posted I did some rough estimation that instant casts were somewhere around 30% of all casts. I suppose 531 spellpower isn't that much (4-5% something at 12k sp) but still. Is that really enough to justify not using IF? Thanks for sharing advice on the fight.
    Inner will saved me 64610 mana which equates to 487 mp5 which equates to 592 spirit. Your highest value secondary stat always has a greater value than spell power 1:1, so for pretty much all fights inner will is better. On some fights its closer than others, but even with only using shield for rapture you're going to get a better result reforging away spirit into secondary stats. The only time this isn't the case is when you reforge out all spirit & still have too much regen, which is pretty much never the case.

    That being said, switching to inner fire if you know you're about to take a lot of physical damage isn't a bad idea (Warmaster shouts for instance).

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Halaberiel View Post
    Your highest value secondary stat always has a greater value than spell power 1:1 --- you're going to get a better result reforging away spirit into secondary stats. The only time this isn't the case is when you reforge out all spirit & still have too much regen, which is pretty much never the case.
    I always thought spellpower had the higher stat rating by far except for mastery which would only be relevant if enough shields was used (which may not be the case here judging from your description and log).

    Elitist Jerks wrote: "Since it takes 93.45 spellpower to gain a 1% increase to your spells (93.45 / 9345 = 1 / 100), it can
    be said that it takes 93.45 Spellpower 'Rating' to equal a 1% increase. This makes it easier to
    directly compare the throughput value of Spellpower with other ratings to determine basic stat
    weightings.

    The spells that do not follow this convention are Binding Heal (100.01) and Holy Word: Sanctuary
    (105.32); these spells will not scale as well as our other healing spells, though only slightly."


    In the list they provide after that other secondary stats don't go above 0.73 (stat weighting, normalized to 1 spellpower of how much rating is needed to give a 1% healing increase). Am I misinterpreting this completely? It's the only place I trust at least a little bit where I could find some comparison between stats like that. Or is the answer that yes but spirit weighs that much higher still? (the EJ list didn't take spi into account, I guess because it can't be compared back to back without knowing other things like fight length etc). In your fight, with the mana you say you saved being worth 592 of a secondary stat to gain 531 sp from Inner Fire the secondary stat must be worth 1.11 spellpower (592/531) to become the better option, am I right? Damn, I need to learn more about how these things work! ...not to mention better at math.
    Last edited by Dinninit; 2012-03-17 at 08:48 PM.

  13. #13
    You can use simcraft to work out stat weightings depending on what spells you use most. For example, take the following cast order:

    actions=flask,type=draconic_mind
    actions+=/food,type=seafood_magnifique_feast
    actions+=/fortitude
    actions+=/inner_fire
    actions+=/snapshot_stats
    actions+=/mana_potion,if=mana_pct<=75
    actions+=/arcane_torrent,if=mana_pct<=90
    actions+=/shadow_fiend,if=mana_pct<=20
    actions+=/hymn_of_hope,if=pet.shadow_fiend.active
    actions+=/power_infusion
    actions+=/power_word_shield,if=!cooldown.rapture.remains
    actions+=/archangel,if=buff.holy_evangelism.stack>=5
    actions+=/penance_heal,if=buff.borrowed_time.up|buff.grace.down
    actions+=/holy_fire
    actions+=/smite,if=dot.holy_fire.remains>cast_time&buff.holy_evangelism.stack<5&buff.holy_archangel. down
    actions+=/penance_heal
    actions+=/prayer_of_healing

    Casted on 5 targets, so PoH gets full benefit. With this spell sequence (which is essentially shield for rapture, smite/holy fire for AA, penance for grace & PoH otherwise) you get stat weights as follows: haste 3.2442 > crit 3.08 > sp 2.655 > mastery 1.7688. This pretty accurate on spine where you do very little shielding, and even if you were to do more single target healing the value of sp would still be less. For instance with the following spell order...

    actions=flask,type=draconic_mind
    actions+=/food,type=seafood_magnifique_feast
    actions+=/fortitude
    actions+=/inner_fire
    actions+=/snapshot_stats
    actions+=/mana_potion,if=mana_pct<=75
    actions+=/arcane_torrent,if=mana_pct<=90
    actions+=/shadow_fiend,if=mana_pct<=20
    actions+=/hymn_of_hope,if=pet.shadow_fiend.active
    actions+=/power_infusion
    actions+=/power_word_shield,if=!cooldown.rapture.remains
    actions+=/archangel,if=buff.holy_evangelism.stack>=5
    actions+=/penance_heal,if=buff.borrowed_time.up|buff.grace.down
    actions+=/holy_fire
    actions+=/smite,if=dot.holy_fire.remains>cast_time&buff.holy_evangelism.stack<5&buff.holy_archangel. down
    actions+=/penance_heal
    actions+=/greater_heal

    You get haste 2.5 > crit 2 > sp 1.9 > mastery 0.9

    So as you can see stat weights vary a HUGE amount depending on what spells you cast AND your current stats. I mean that's pretty obvious, you can't just take some stat weightings & apply them to every fight (or your gear since that again changes the weightings!). How useful a certain stat is (it's "value") depends entirely on what spells you cast. If you cast 1 PoH per shield (which is higher HPS than pure PoH) your mastery stat weight will be top for instance.

    If you want to work out weightings use a spreadsheet or simcraft, don't blinding follow anything you read on the internet :-p
    Last edited by Halaberiel; 2012-03-18 at 12:52 AM.

  14. #14
    Ok, thanks for clearing that up a bit. I'm used to using simcraft for dps so I'll give that a go with my own char. Didn't realize it was that useful for healing numbers too. That'll save me some of the trouble with all random numbers spread about sometimes.

    After trying an AA build so far it's worked out pretty well even if we only had a few pulls yet. My main concern has been that I sometimes find nothing to HF/Smite on because I'm scared to get the Amalgamation too low too early and blood kills are sniped by the dpsers but that's not the worst issue one could have, I suppose. And I wish we had a shaman for SLT.

    With our setup of Holy priest, disc priest and holy paladin would you recommend having the holy priest do the bulk of the dispels and having the disc priest do more of the aoe healing instead of the other way around (for the benefits of DA)? We wanted to have one player assigned to dispelling to avoid dispelling the same target too much and only have a backup for if that player was gripped, was dpsing the tendon and similar situations. We tried a few different ways but haven't figured out what works best yet. So far we have let the paladin heal the tank(s).


    Also congratulations on the kill to the op, H3lladvocate!
    Last edited by Dinninit; 2012-03-18 at 05:40 AM.

  15. #15
    Don't worry about DPSing the amalg. Unless it's like 1-2% it's fine for you to continue provided no one else is. I only smite/holy fire for AA by the way, so it's only 5 hits every 30 secs or so, unless tendon is up. Try not to smite while you have AA up, instead during the 18-30 second window when you don't.

    Let him dispel yep, and tell him to glyph it. You'll have AA/PI during barrel rolls anyway so your throughput will be way higher than his. You shouldn't need a tank healer outside of plate 3. I did most of the tank healing through atonement the damage is that low I believe.

  16. #16
    Not going to make another thread about healing H Spine 10 man, just a question: In this healing setup - Priest, Shamy, Pala, what do you think it's better spec for Priest, Disc or Holy? I was going holy for hymn on rolls mainly. Here is a log of ours tryies worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-bbfp5s91vwi73myy/

  17. #17
    good luck to you!

  18. #18
    Chalin
    Not going to make another thread about healing H Spine 10 man, just a question: In this healing setup - Priest, Shamy, Pala, what do you think it's better spec for Priest, Disc or Holy? I was going holy for hymn on rolls mainly. Here is a log of ours tryies worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-bbfp5s91vwi73myy/
    Hi, last week, we did it with a quite similar comp: resto shaman, disci priest (dispel man) and me. I went for Holy. Your comp (as mine) already has 2 CDs which reduce dmg (SLT and barrier/aura mastery). Holy divine hymn is so a very strong cd to remove debuff before each roll.
    Moreover, you will get more advantage of manatide. With this and your shadowfiend, their no way you get oom even spamming mana expensive spells (renov on debuffs, FH/GH before amalgam aoe and on the grip, PoH during amalgam aoe and roll).

    Here is a wol a the last week down. www . worldoflogs . com / reports/08reo8clllybe9xf
    I didn't use a particular reforge, whereas I read that crit should be the strongest secondary stats after spirit in holy.


    PS: sorry for bad english

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