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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Kasierith View Post
    Well, first it lacks homeostatis, yes how the baby develops is going to be from environmental factors and pH levels and pressure and temperature and so on, but the single cell itself lacks this ability. For growth, at the beginning it does simply accumulate matter. It simply makes the same cell over and over again until it has the basis for differentiation. Adaption doesn't occur until it has the cell available to do so. It definitely can't reproduce yet. At conception, it essentially is liker a cancer cell, with the ability to only divide and divide until it starts differentiating. I can agree that it is alive. But there is no indication that it is anything other than part of the mother until differentiation occurs
    Requiring specific external conditions is not the same as lacking homoestasis. If it was, we wouldn't consider anything to be "alive". Making the same cell over and over is growth. If it wasn't, bacteria wouldn't be considered alive. Adaptation surely does occur, as embryos respond to their environment quite effectively. If they didn't, we wouldn't be able to do any research with embryos at all.

    I think you're shooting for semantics that aren't necessary to support your central point. I'm about as pro-choice as anyone I know, but it's got nothing to do with whether an embryo's alive. Life doesn't convey personhood rights, and there's just nothing at all about an embryo that suggests it's a person. It's definitely alive, but there's lots of things (almost all of them, actually) that are alive that we have no problem with killing.

  2. #62
    You know, this thread is supposed to be about Voter Fraud, not when human life begins...


    At any rate, outright fraud is pretty much nonexistant in the US. It's happened, but it's not all that widespread and rarely swings elections. What's more of a concern is voter suppression. Things like combating voter fraud through means that coincidentally make it harder for low-income people to vote, or by flooding areas that support the opposing party with misleading robocalls designed to trick people into not showing up at the polls come election day.

    As for Ron Paul, there is no need for any of that to occur. He certainly has his supporters, but his views are so far removed from the Republican party's that he never had a real shot at the nomination. He's too much of a libertarian to be supported by the mainstream republicans, and he's much too conservative to be supported by many democrats crossing party lines.
    Last edited by Falrinn; 2012-03-14 at 02:43 PM.
    Roleplaying, hardcore Raiding, running LFR on the occasional weekend, PvPing, rolling alts, achievement hunting, pet battling, or just enacting an endless series of whims, I don't care how you play WoW. Just as long as you have fun doing it.

  3. #63
    The Normal Kasierith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spectral View Post
    Requiring specific external conditions is not the same as lacking homoestasis. If it was, we wouldn't consider anything to be "alive". Making the same cell over and over is growth. If it wasn't, bacteria wouldn't be considered alive. Adaptation surely does occur, as embryos respond to their environment quite effectively. If they didn't, we wouldn't be able to do any research with embryos at all.

    I think you're shooting for semantics that aren't necessary to support your central point. I'm about as pro-choice as anyone I know, but it's got nothing to do with whether an embryo's alive. Life doesn't convey personhood rights, and there's just nothing at all about an embryo that suggests it's a person. It's definitely alive, but there's lots of things (almost all of them, actually) that are alive that we have no problem with killing.
    I have not said whether or not I'm pro-choice or pro-life. The issue means absolutely nothing to me as an individual. The only concern that I will ever have with it is from a medical treatment standpoint; if someone is pro-choice and wants to learn about plan B, I will have no qualms about explaining how to use the contraceptive properly. If someone is pro-life and wants to know about anything from pregnancy health to adoption policies, I will help them even if it is socially, economically, and physically detrimental to them (with exceptions, even the Catholic Church concedes on a few extreme health-related matters). I do not have the ethical or personal background to make any judgement on their actions either way.
    I am referring very specifically to before differentiation. When it is merely dividing, a cell does not have homeostasis. I don't see how you could possibly argue that a clump of undifferentiated stem cells is capable of this; they are essentially a clump of clay. The only control whatsoever is how they're positioned and how close they are to the surface of the clump. Apart from that, the external factors hammer it into shape and initiate selective gene expression.

    Going back to my primary point... Ron Paul has had a long lasting focus on the strict separation of Church and State, and yet he is now specifically implementing religious beliefs into his speeches in order to appeal to a larger crowd. While no candidate can go without at least a small amount of hypocrisy compared to their long term voting focus, this matter has been a particular focus of his for some time now, so his change in focus is startling

  4. #64
    Athens-Clarke County, GA Republican Delegate Fraud

  5. #65

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