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  1. #21
    The Unstoppable Force N-aix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milkshake86 View Post
    Combat is bis for a majority of fights however the absolute bis for combat is legendary offhand and heroic madness axe MH. Any fight w/ alot of cleave legendary mh and oh.
    I'm just going to say you are very wrong in every way possible. Unless you can give me solid evidence of why and such; There's no possible way for it to be BiS and over taking both daggers that have an agility proc with the eviscerate spam

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Milkshake86 View Post
    Combat is bis for a majority of fights however the absolute bis for combat is legendary offhand and heroic madness axe MH. Any fight w/ alot of cleave legendary mh and oh.
    This has to be a troll, right?

  3. #23
    The guy saying to run anything over legendaries is incorrect.

    The premise of this thread is off. OP is assuming that the legendaries might make one spec strongly better than another. In fact, Blizzard balanced the proc rate by spec to make the values of the daggers similar by spec- the determining factor for each fight is still primarily the mechanics, along with other important aspects such as buffs, skill, and familiarity, far before you get to one spec gaining a greater benefit than another.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    The guy saying to run anything over legendaries is incorrect.

    The premise of this thread is off. OP is assuming that the legendaries might make one spec strongly better than another. In fact, Blizzard balanced the proc rate by spec to make the values of the daggers similar by spec- the determining factor for each fight is still primarily the mechanics, along with other important aspects such as buffs, skill, and familiarity, far before you get to one spec gaining a greater benefit than another.
    Pretty sure the values of the daggers aren't that similar by spec. If you remember WoL a while ago before everyone had daggers, there was a pretty massive difference between say assassination and combat (gimmicks aside). The value of the daggers being quite a bit higher for assassination is the sole reason it is that close now. So I would say they balanced the proc rate to close the gap between specs.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    Pretty sure the values of the daggers aren't that similar by spec. If you remember WoL a while ago before everyone had daggers, there was a pretty massive difference between say assassination and combat (gimmicks aside). The value of the daggers being quite a bit higher for assassination is the sole reason it is that close now. So I would say they balanced the proc rate to close the gap between specs.
    Yeah, it wasn't explicitly said by Blizzard, but from PTR already we knew it worked like this just looking at the procs for different specs - Assassination stacks it up really fast compared to combat, and sub it's between the two.

    Still, since the spec choice isn't determined by gear or simulations dps but it depends from fight mechanics, combat/sub dominate the DS raid.

  6. #26
    Yeah I'm not too sure which spec the daggers are the most useful for, it's not combat. But even with that being said, combat is imo the best spec, HOWEVER, you can honestly play which ever spec you want and be fine. They are all pretty good for different fights.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/

    How do some serious raiding rogues not know about this site yet? Its basically the #1 resource for rogues.
    Any serious raiding rogue will know that ShadowCraft always has some flaws and legendary proc not being modelled is currently one of them.

  8. #28
    gonna say depends what stage legendarys u have

    assuming u are completed by ur dps i believe the legendary stage 3 is best no matter what.

    of course for combat there is a small offchance that heroic no-kaled can be slightly better but i am doubtful.. this just needs to be tested.

    however i feel the massive agility and eviscerate spam u can do with stage 3 does merit more dps than even heroic NK

  9. #29
    ...does it really matter, for non-cleave fights, whether Legendaries or No'k H and legendary OH would come out ahead? There's no fight without cleave, at all, which should pose any difficulty, at all, after H Madness, and we won't be using them in MoP. Instinct says legendaries would be ahead in a vacuum (Ultraxion) for the Fury we can't model too well, but really, at that point, it doesn't matter in the slightest if you run 50.0k or 50.1k on Ultraxion when you're 8/8H

    On the real topic, which is assuming you're still progressing, you'll probably need combat for a few fights, but your OS should be up to you, especially with the 10% debuff. As mentioned earlier, you're probably* still best off with Com/Sub as a default, yes.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Maelstrom51 View Post
    http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/

    How do some serious raiding rogues not know about this site yet? Its basically the #1 resource for rogues.
    Shadowcraft simmed H MH dagger lower than H madness Axe. Its been a while since they've updated it, don't think they ever did since the launch of DS

    THUS my OP and question to those who have orange daggers and whether they're BiS across all boards. I have my answer now, thanks to those who actually helped.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-16 at 02:51 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Verain View Post
    The guy saying to run anything over legendaries is incorrect.

    The premise of this thread is off. OP is assuming that the legendaries might make one spec strongly better than another. In fact, Blizzard balanced the proc rate by spec to make the values of the daggers similar by spec- the determining factor for each fight is still primarily the mechanics, along with other important aspects such as buffs, skill, and familiarity, far before you get to one spec gaining a greater benefit than another.
    I was asking specifically for single target sustained dps ie: H Ultraxion. Since assassination has the highest proc rate for orange daggers plus the bonus of not having rng working against you as combat does (proc'ing at no insight, no cd, etc) therefore I was under the impression that assassination would yield better numbers on that specific fight.

  11. #31
    Combat for all is viable on normal. For heroic? not quite sure yet, not fully completed yet on heroic.

    I'm combat for all fights and never pull below 38k DPS, with stage 2 daggers, on 10man. I also stay combat for Morchok, cause we have him on farm on heroic.. no point to "stay in for da deepz" if he dies after two earth vortices.

    I can't wait for stage 3 daggers, that proc is sick!

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    ...does it really matter, for non-cleave fights, whether Legendaries or No'k H and legendary OH would come out ahead? There's no fight without cleave, at all, which should pose any difficulty, at all, after H Madness, and we won't be using them in MoP. Instinct says legendaries would be ahead in a vacuum (Ultraxion) for the Fury we can't model too well, but really, at that point, it doesn't matter in the slightest if you run 50.0k or 50.1k on Ultraxion when you're 8/8H

    On the real topic, which is assuming you're still progressing, you'll probably need combat for a few fights, but your OS should be up to you, especially with the 10% debuff. As mentioned earlier, you're probably* still best off with Com/Sub as a default, yes.
    Thanks, my OS is currently subtlety for the burst dps needed on certain progressions. But since it seems that the general consensus is combat > ass, I'm going to stick with my original specs.

  13. #33
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    Legendary's are bis for all specs..how can you even question this

    Edit: I play sub on Morchok and Yor'saj and pull 51k+ each fight in a 10m with no 3% damage but combat is more suited for the entire raid(besides heroic spine ofc) than sub even though i hate it :/

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-16 at 12:02 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekked View Post
    Shadowcraft simmed H MH dagger lower than H madness Axe. Its been a while since they've updated it, don't think they ever did since the launch of DS

    THUS my OP and question to those who have orange daggers and whether they're BiS across all boards. I have my answer now, thanks to those who actually helped.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-16 at 02:51 AM ----------



    I was asking specifically for single target sustained dps ie: H Ultraxion. Since assassination has the highest proc rate for orange daggers plus the bonus of not having rng working against you as combat does (proc'ing at no insight, no cd, etc) therefore I was under the impression that assassination would yield better numbers on that specific fight.
    Assassination relies on the execute phase for decent numbers which can't be done on Ultraxion. I played around with a hemo spec mastery build for subtlety which actually performs better than backstab spam and can be used on ultraxion too.
    Last edited by cynicalz; 2012-03-16 at 06:57 AM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekked View Post
    Shadowcraft simmed H MH dagger lower than H madness Axe. Its been a while since they've updated it, don't think they ever did since the launch of DS
    You have to actually equip the items in shadowcraft for set effects to work. This has always been the case, and it shows the legendary set about 2k above the madness axe + orange offhand.

  15. #35
    Sublety for fawking everything !
    (Even Ultraxion!)

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by announced View Post
    gonna say depends what stage legendarys u have

    assuming u are completed by ur dps i believe the legendary stage 3 is best no matter what.

    of course for combat there is a small offchance that heroic no-kaled can be slightly better but i am doubtful.. this just needs to be tested.

    however i feel the massive agility and eviscerate spam u can do with stage 3 does merit more dps than even heroic NK
    Um theres not different stages of legendaries. Legendaries are the final phase and that only. Also seeing as how the axe procs don't scale and how the 406 ilvl daggers were almost even with the axe 3 levels lower and those have no proc and the agi stack is over triple phase 2, I can't see any way in hell the axe is better.

  17. #37
    The biggest boost to your dps on Hc Ultraxion is how close to the wire you can go when not soaking and rng. with fading lights.
    The more time you spend in the Twilight realm the better...
    Last edited by Timujingeo; 2012-03-16 at 12:29 PM.

  18. #38
    I have the legendaryes and have done all 8/8HC in every possible spec na dI can say the best spec for each boss.

    - Morchock: Sub or Assassination with vendetta glyph. Everyone say sub because of the 1min CoS CD, wich enables the player to stay always on the boss, and they are right but Assassination can also achiev (specially with legendarys and vendetta glyph) amazing DPS. In 3 dark phase I'll only miss 1 dark phase on the boss (but in that 15sec dark period I'm 8sec attacking the boss), so assassination is really good in here too. Combat does decent DPS too.

    - Yor'sahj: Assassination with vendetta glyph. Just stay on the boss and when the dark adds come, FoK until they all have 5 Deadly poison stacks and then nuke the boss. You'll achiev high DPS just easly. Having too much AOE, makes sub not viable.

    - Warlord Zon'ozz: Combat. Because of the target switch and the cleave for the Claw+Boss is to OP in this fight. The costant target switching makes cubs and assassination not viable. Even if you stay on the boss all the time, combat with blade furry does insane DPS.

    - Hagara: Combat, Assassination in 25man with backstab glyph also works good. Combat is probably the best because you have a 30/40 sec window to attack hagara and having the cleave on Hagara + Ice tombs is really good. In 25man Assassination works really good if you're lucky not to be targeted by ice tomb. Stacking 5 Deadly poisons on 6 ice tombs while attacking Hagara with vendetta on, is a DPS meter party. If you stay on the boss 100% and you're never targeted by ice lance during the fight sub can be playable on this fight, but are too many ifs and harder to perform.

    - Ultraxion: Combat. Not having the option to backstab or garrote the target makes Combat the only option on this fight. Assassination can work too with vendetta glyph, but it's easier to get 45k DPS on Combat than on Assassination.

    - Warmaster: Combat. Having the cleave on the elites+dragons on p1, and Galiona and warmaster on p2, you'll have 60k DPS not even sweating. Assassination and sub can work, but the DPS difference is just insane.

    - Spine: Subtletly. This spec is really OP in this fight because of the small window burst needed on the tendons. The guild method has a really good guide for this fight as sub, and you'll do the pre-nerf 1.4M damage needed on each up tendon.

    - Madness: Assassination with backstab glyph or Combat. Here both specs work just as great. You can do 100k with them with no problem. Having 5 stacks of deadly stacking on the hemorrage gives you extra damage and ticks for the spellweave (the problem now is that you can kill them too easly), and also kills the bloods on p2 faster. Having Combat gives u cleave option(+spellweave) on the parasite, blisterings, terrors on p2 and with luck the fragments on p2.

    Soo to sum up, I have the legendaries and I'm playing assassination in all fights except the Spine and I'm really happy with my DPS. The legendaries proc 2x or more faster in assassin/sub than in Combat, and I get very good dps with them. The only fights that I'm far behind than the other rogues is the Warmaster and warlord zon'ozz fight (in Ultraxion I'm really close to them in DPS terms), soo if you're not trying to do progress in one of those fights and you have the legendaries, go Assassination if you want to

    P.S. This is with my experience in a 25man guild that cleared all HC content and it's in a farming mode for quite some time

  19. #39
    I don't think the OP was asking if assassination with the daggers was viable, but what was best for a dual-spec lineup for playing through H DS. Apart from that... what? Assassination recommended to FoK the tombs on Hagara? FoK during vendetta? Combat under assass for Morchok? I don't... I don't get it. Further, the generally accepted Yor'sahj options are subtlety (for single target when AoE isn't needed) and combat (to cleave down the last couple of adds when all serious AoE has already ended) unless you're seriously short on AoE and need the push to down the adds before the next set spawn on Yellow/Black. On top of this, there's a guide oriented for 25H DS rogues stickied at the top of the forum that covers everything you're trying to discuss in relative detail.

    Of course, for farming do whatever you have fun with, but that's always the case forever. It doesn't change whether or not you've got legendaries (although the gap between specs is slightly smaller for assassination at that point, you still won't pick your spec by fun if you're min-maxing for progression). Given that most groups will use an assassination rogue (or combat) for madness, and assassination nowhere else (except possibly Yor'sahj), the general recommendation for those that don't want to re-spec in org between fights is to run Com/Sub for min-maxing and progression.

  20. #40
    Field Marshal Nigoki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deklol View Post
    Sublety for fawking everything !
    (Even Ultraxion!)
    I'm with you!!!

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