What is GW max level about?

[Deleted]

PVP is about competition. People don't play chess continuously to 'gear up' their pieces, they do it because it's a fun activity.

I dare to say that less than 5% of people can actually grasp that concept. Welcome to top 5% club.

[NineSpine]

From what I've been able to gather so far, if every one of your attempts succeed then the DE will be the same each time. It's when you fail that it changes.

I don't think that this is true. They've talked about how DEs are often reliant on each other in complex ways, meaning "success" and "failure" aren't binary. You can be successful in the DE you are working on, but another nearby one fails and that changes the outcome in a different way than if they both succeeded or failed.

For example you'll either push back the mobs, and fight them back to their base and take it over, or at any time if you begin to fail the mobs will push you back and they'll take over the town. Even once the mobs have the town taken under their control you can take it back and push them back to their base.

Some of the DE's chain pretty long, they've said there's some that chain up to 20 times, so who knows exactly what kind steps there are for each chain and what might happen if you fail in between them.

They aren't just chains. They are also complex trees and webs.

[Malthurius]

Well, RPG without character development is absurd to me. Ok, there is progression until you reach max level. It works like standard RPG then. There is story, quests and my character is increasing in power allowing him to progress within the story and to reach new areas. But at the max level (which seems to be most important) what sort of progression remains? Can I somehow make my character better / stronger? If there is no gear to improve, nomore levels to gain, no abilities to gain? Unless unlocking those elites takes more time? But after that?

I can explore some areas, kill some mobs in a dungeon or fight some players in PvP. So i can fight with a pretedermined character (since all stats and abilities are the same), to make said character prettier or for the fun of victory.

Aren't arcade games like that? Mortal Kombat type of PvP - each character has a set of moves, characters of same type are totally equal. They fight, one wins.
Or the games where you walk to the right, enemies are pouring at you and you defeat them. That's how I imagine PvE.
Sure, it's much more complicated than those arcade games - your character has more moves, world is 3d and is prettier, it's less linear, and more people can play with each other than 2.

Maybe I did use the wrong word. What's the english word for all those games where it's more about your agility and reflexes than strategy, they are usually divided into levels. Without building anything or improving. Very broad category, including most FPS games (half life, quake etc.), TPP (tomb raider and similar) and sports games (fifa, need for speed etc.)

Gear progression is horizontal. When you reach max level the gear you get won't be stronger, but the stat distribution will be different.

So, say a helm with 50 precision and 50 power vs another helm with 25 precision and 75 power. You're not getting stronger per se, but you are progressing your character into a certain play style (All classes benefit from all stats).

There is also personal skill to worry about. The max level content will NOT be easy, and it will require a lot of skill (or at least it should).

If none of that appeals to you for progression, then this isn't the game for you.

[grandpab]

I don't think that this is true. They've talked about how DEs are often reliant on each other in complex ways, meaning "success" and "failure" aren't binary. You can be successful in the DE you are working on, but another nearby one fails and that changes the outcome in a different way than if they both succeeded or failed.

They aren't just chains. They are also complex trees and webs.

I guess I've missed that, that just makes them so much better then.

[NineSpine]

Well, RPG without character development is absurd to me. Ok, there is progression until you reach max level. It works like standard RPG then. There is story, quests and my character is increasing in power allowing him to progress within the story and to reach new areas. But at the max level (which seems to be most important) what sort of progression remains? Can I somehow make my character better / stronger? If there is no gear to improve, nomore levels to gain, no abilities to gain? Unless unlocking those elites takes more time? But after that?

Get better. Take on bigger challenges. Get achievements. See content.

I can explore some areas, kill some mobs in a dungeon or fight some players in PvP. So i can fight with a pretedermined character (since all stats and abilities are the same), to make said character prettier or for the fun of victory.

Aren't arcade games like that? Mortal Kombat type of PvP - each character has a set of moves, characters of same type are totally equal. They fight, one wins.
Or the games where you walk to the right, enemies are pouring at you and you defeat them. That's how I imagine PvE.
Sure, it's much more complicated than those arcade games - your character has more moves, world is 3d and is prettier, it's less linear, and more people can play with each other than 2.

If that's true, then what game isn't an arcade game? If that's the criteria, then Starcraft is an arcade game. Half Life is an arcade game. The Legend of Zelda is an arcade game. Mario is an arcade game.

Maybe I did use the wrong word. What's the english word for all those games where it's more about your agility and reflexes than strategy, they are usually divided into levels. Without building anything or improving. Very broad category, including most FPS games (half life, quake etc.), TPP (tomb raider and similar) and sports games (fifa, need for speed etc.)

You are making a false dichotomy. A game doesn't have to be about "agility and reflexes" or "strategy". Most competitive FPS games have a heavy element of strategy. Strategy is an integral part of almost any action-oriented game.

[procne]

I am sorry if my post sounded somehow offensive, it was not meant to. It just sounded to me that you were claiming that GW2 design is flawed because it does not offer the kind of progression you want, hence the reaction. As to the original point of the thread, a question was asked and it was answered. The thread just derailed as it often happens

Overall: what I mean is that people have different tastes and that's ok. There are different games which have different design goals and apply to these different tastes. A discussion about tastes cannot be objective by definition

By no means, I wasn't trying to say that GW2 design is flawed. At most I can say it's unusual for an MMO. I just said that it lacks aspects that, for me, are vital in an RPG. It would be silly to state that game is bad because it doesn't meet my expectations :/

Although later discussion derailed into how MMOs and games work.

[NineSpine]

I guess I've missed that, that just makes them so much better then.

Yeah, I think they've accidentally misled some people by using the overly simplistic examples in most interviews. Sometimes the DEs also work in non-required ways, like if one DE is completed then during the big boss fight youll have canons that otherwise you wouldnt.

[Lillpapps]

PVP is about competition. People don't play chess continuously to 'gear up' their pieces, they do it because it's a fun activity.

Finally a smart person on this forum.
This applies to Dungeons for me aswell. I do them because I find them fun. Not because I want loot. If I start to find them boring then I want to be able to stop doing them. I dont think anyone likes doing the same dungeon 20 times just to get that one item that never drops just to make you on par with the current tier of gear.

[NineSpine]

By no means, I wasn't trying to say that GW2 design is flawed. At most I can say it's unusual for an MMO. I just said that it lacks aspects that, for me, are vital in an RPG. It would be silly to state that game is bad because it doesn't meet my expectations :/

Although later discussion derailed into how MMOs and games work.

Why is gear-grinding "vital" to you? I'd have a lot more fun in WoW if I had access to ALL the content in the game instead of just the tiny sliver that is current, personally.

[BlairPhoenix]

GW2 does have progression though. Virtually every game has progression. What we are arguing is that having a constantly moving gear goalpost is not the only thing that progression is.

I didn't say it didn't, I said it didn't have it in abundance. The kind of progression they want is obviously not the kind GW2 has at any rate.

GW2 not being the game for him is all well and good,
but spewing misinformation is obviously going to bring in some replies.
Saying things like "it's not even an RPG" and junk is just.. come on.

Game speaks for itself, if anyone else believes that GW2 isn't an RPG because of what procne is saying, I'd rather they not be playing the game anyways.

[NineSpine]

I didn't say it didn't, I said it didn't have it in abundance. The kind of progression they want is obviously not the kind GW2 has at any rate.

Game speaks for itself, if anyone else believes that GW2 isn't an RPG because of what procne is saying, I'd rather they not be playing the game anyways.

I agree, but I think it's important not to let people monopolize the term "progression" to mean only the basest and most lazy version of it.

[Edge-]

Guys, stop trying to convince everyone who comes in here and gives a legitimate reason for not being interested in the game that their opinions are wrong. If someone likes gear progression in their games and isn't interested because their isn't a linear progression system, that's fine. If someone likes traditional questing and isn't interested in the dynamic event system, that's fine too. There's nothing wrong with it, different strokes for different folks.

[NineSpine]

Guys, stop trying to convince everyone who comes in here and gives a legitimate reason for not being interested in the game that their opinions are wrong. If someone likes gear progression in their games and isn't interested because their isn't a linear progression system, that's fine. If someone likes traditional questing and isn't interested in the dynamic event system, that's fine too. There's nothing wrong with it, different strokes for different folks.

There's a difference between that and repeating incredibly misinformed, fallacious claims about the game that are simply untrue.

[mafao]

Well, RPG without character development is absurd to me. Ok, there is progression until you reach max level. It works like standard RPG then. There is story, quests and my character is increasing in power allowing him to progress within the story and to reach new areas. But at the max level (which seems to be most important) what sort of progression remains? Can I somehow make my character better / stronger? If there is no gear to improve, nomore levels to gain, no abilities to gain? Unless unlocking those elites takes more time? But after that?

But how are other games different? Again, take WoW (as the best known example). The "real" progression is where you level up, get you abilities, decide on your role and playstyle, build your talents. Once you hit the max level, your progression stops. The gear grind aka. heroics/raiding is not a "true" RPG progression, it is not making your character "better", this is simply a prerequisite if you want to take that character to specific kind of content. You can't do real PvP until you have collected the PvP gear. This is not character progression, because is does not change anything substantial about your character, this is simply time sink/rite of passage thing. Yes, its a common design element in modern MMOs - instead of giving you access to the interesting stuff immediately, they first make you suffer and do boring stuff for it for a few weeks or even month. Which is a bit sadistic. What wonders me more though, is that there are apparently so many masochistic players who actually enjoy that kind of attitude!

Besides giving you an illusion of having character development, gear progression also trivializes the content. And once you have reached a particular level, your "progression" stops completely, because there is simply no new challenging content for you to do. So you are stuck waiting for a new expansion.

Look how "real" - single-player RPG games do it. Here, you often have gear progression — but this progression simply accompanies you as you go further in the game, and the game storyline puts you in a particular context where your gear or ability level is *always* appropriate. In a grind-based MMO, you are actually forced into repetitive actions just to be able to gain access to interesting content, and yet this content quickly stops being interesting, because by completing it you trivialize it again.

---------- Post added 2012-03-16 at 05:18 PM ----------

Finally a smart person on this forum.
This applies to Dungeons for me aswell. I do them because I find them fun. Not because I want loot. If I start to find them boring then I want to be able to stop doing them. I dont think anyone likes doing the same dungeon 20 times just to get that one item that never drops just to make you on par with the current tier of gear.

Exactly why I am looking forward to GW2.

[NineSpine]

But how are other games different? Again, take WoW (as the best known example). The "real" progression is where you level up, get you abilities, decide on your role and playstyle, build your talents. Once you hit the max level, your progression stops. The gear grind aka. heroics/raiding is not a "true" RPG progression, it is not making your character "better", this is simply a prerequisite if you want to take that character to specific kind of content. You can't do real PvP until you have collected the PvP gear. This is not character progression, because is does not change anything substantial about your character, this is simply time sink/rite of passage thing. Besides giving you an illusion of having character development, gear progression also trivializes the content. And once you have reached a particular level, your "progression" stops completely, because there is simply no new challenging content for you to do. So you are stuck waiting for a new expansion.

Look how "real" - single-player RPG games do it. Here, you often have gear progression — but this progression simply accompanies you as you go further in the game, and the game storyline puts you in a particular context where your gear or ability level is *always* appropriate. In a grind-based MMO, you are actually forced into repetitive actions just to be able to gain access to interesting content, and yet this content quickly stops being interesting, because by completing it you trivialize it again.

This is an important point. Look at Diablo 2, and soon 3. The gear in that game actually makes a substantive difference in how your character plays, because of the effects it can have on your abilities. That's just not really true in WoW in any significant way.

[Borzo]

TLDR:

1) If you want PVE progression, GW2 will have that.
2) If you want PVE gear progression that is similar to WOW, GW2 will not have that.

If you can't see yourself being interested in anything but gear progression, then this game will not meet your needs. If you might be able to be motivated by other kinds of non-gear types of character progression, then GW2 might meet your needs. If you HATE gear-progression and the endless treadmill it creates, then GW2 is probably the game for you!

[Edge-]

There's a difference between that and repeating incredibly misinformed, fallacious claims about the game that are simply untrue.

You're right. And we handle that part. But when somebody comes in with one "incredibly misinformed, fallacious claim" you guys frequently jump all over them without giving them a chance to correct themselves. When someone comes in with a legitimate opinion (see the two examples I gave) on why they aren't interested in the game, you guys jump all over them. It needs to stop. These forums are a place for discussion and for people to express their opinions. As long as they're being productive members, they are free to post their opinions and contribute.

[Deleted]

But at the end of the day, the simple fact remains, gear progression is a huge destructive force in MMOs. Destructive as in reducing the amount of content that is effectively available to you. And worse, if you play some specific content that you like, you will come to outgear that specific content by default just from getting loot. As MMOs are all about content, destroying content in this manner is not a good thing.

And that is my honest opinion. As for hype, I am not really hyped. I am just tired to see people come in and claim that WoW has such a huge amount of content and things to do, when 95% of it goes unused.

Imo it has less to do with gear then with how zones and content in them is build. If you build content around one time quests, and after that quests are completed nothing fill vaacum, then all you are left is raids/high level dungeons etc which you can repeat.
If you dont have new quests/events w/e to do in zone, then downscaling gear/character level only for sake of mobs being harder to kill wont do much good. You can see it exactly in WoW. Lets say Blizz made change and when you enter lower level zones, you automaticly downscaled to that zone level, but if they didnt add another set of quests, you still have not much to do there unless you want to fight mobs only.

Now GW2 seems to build content with illusion of living world and as I understend everytime you enter zone, you can repeat more or less content quests (Dynamic Events in GW2) even havign differnt outcome. Only with that change in building content in place downscaling of character gear/level have sense imo.

[procne]

Get better. Take on bigger challenges. Get achievements. See content.

Isn't whole content available to you once you reach max level? And what bigger challenges are there? I mean other than artificial challenges like "kill 100 players in pvp without dying" or "Clear dungeon xxx under 30 minutes"?

If that's true, then what game isn't an arcade game? If that's the criteria, then Starcraft is an arcade game. Half Life is an arcade game. The Legend of Zelda is an arcade game. Mario is an arcade game.

You are making a false dichotomy. A game doesn't have to be about "agility and reflexes" or "strategy". Most competitive FPS games have a heavy element of strategy. Strategy is an integral part of almost any action-oriented game.

Well, that's the distinction. Since noone came with other word, I will continue to use it.
Half life is arcade, because all you do there is walk and shoot. Mario is arcade.
Starcraft is not arcade because you have to plan, you have to manage your units and resources. Although when watching some koreans play and seeing how fast they click I'm willing to agree with you on that :/
Legend of zelda is arcade game. Mario obviously as well.
I'm not sure what competitive shooters you mean now (my FPS education ended on HL2 ), but shooters are about... aiming and shooting. There is strategy and copperation, and to some extent you can improve yourself (like buying stuff in CS), but in the end it's about being more precise and shooting your enemy before he shoots you.
But deus ex 1 and system shock 2 are not arcade.

What other games aren't arcade? Most RTS, turn based games, browser based MMOs like travian or facebook games, adventure games like the longest journey or myst, or RPGs (like BG, fallout).

[NineSpine]

Isn't whole content available to you once you reach max level? And what bigger challenges are there? I mean other than artificial challenges like "kill 100 players in pvp without dying" or "Clear dungeon xxx under 30 minutes"?

Everything becomes trivial once you overgear it. Ulduar cannot be epic anymore, for example. Someone who comes to the game now can never REALLY experience Ulduar, or Gruul, or Kara.

Well, that's the distinction. Since noone came with other word, I will continue to use it.
Half life is arcade, because all you do there is walk and shoot. Mario is arcade.
Starcraft is not arcade because you have to plan, you have to manage your units and resources. Although when watching some koreans play and seeing how fast they click I'm willing to agree with you on that :/
Legend of zelda is arcade game. Mario obviously as well.
I'm not sure what competitive shooters you mean now (my FPS education ended on HL2 ), but shooters are about... aiming and shooting. There is strategy and copperation, and to some extent you can improve yourself (like buying stuff in CS), but in the end it's about being more precise and shooting your enemy before he shoots you.
But deus ex 1 and system shock 2 are not arcade.

You need to stop using the word arcade. Arcade games are games that can be played in short little sessions without any progression. You start from the same place pretty much every time you pick it up. That's where the term "arcade" comes from: Coin operated machines that reset when you died.

What other games aren't arcade? Most RTS, turn based games, browser based MMOs like travian or facebook games, adventure games like the longest journey or myst, or RPGs (like BG, fallout).

You are making bizarre classifications.